Stimulated emission,, how did Einstein discover it ?

Hello,

I learned the quantum theory of spontaneous and stimulated emission.
As often in QM, it was mechanics plus the magic of the quantum. Little to understand!

However, I never grasped how Einstein managed to discover spontaneous and stimulated emission without solving the Schrödinger equation (qed).

I would like to become cleverer over this weekend!
Could some of you help me?

Michel

Please, consider, the ideas doesn't come into physic through mathematic. For example, the general relativity theory was derived over three years - a long after the initial idea. You can ask me, for example - how is it possible to invent the AWT with no math at all.

Albert Einstein, in letter to Michele Angelo Besso November 1916: "A splendid light has dawned on me about the absorption and emission of radiation..."

This post has been edited by Zephir on Sep 1 2006, 09:45 PM

Hi Lalbatros,

For a complete description please read the full article (link above). You will note that Quantum Mechanics does not offer all the answers, it is just "very good at numbers". That is why we need a genius.

If you want my take on this spontaneous coherence process then you need to look here...
Perpetual motion?, Cyclic photon reflections:Good Elf (first reference)
Perpetual motion?, Cyclic photon reflections: Good Elf

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Sep 1 2006, 10:29 PM

Like all true genius' he was able to see things in the work of Planck, Bohr and others that everyone else had missed. His mind put it all together and then the inspiration dawned.

It is things like this that keep us in awe of true genius, it is more than just adding up the sums or being "clever" it comes down to understanding and perception as well.

How I wish I could do that.

Zephir,

I won't remember this wrong belief, the belief that "physical sense" prevails over mathematics:

First of all, I was not asking how ideas may arise.
I only wanted to know what were the ideas. Do you have a suggestion?

In addition:
Do you really believe physics could have progressed as it did without the Maxwell's equations?
Do you really believe Maxwell established the laws of electromagnetism like poetry or painting is done?
And do you really believe Einstein created general relativity before working out its mathematical logic, and confronting the consequences. It is essentially an wonderful mathematical construction.

What I meant in my question was that Einstein could find out spontaneous and stimulated emissions before QFT was established. Of course the mathematics were simple and the main point was not about solving an algebraic equation. My question was about the facts known by Einstein and how he was led to conclude on the existence of two emission mecanisms.

Michel

Postscriptum 1
I can believe you without problem that you had the idea of AWT without the maths.
But if this theory does not deliver any of its promises, what was the challenge?
And finally what are the promises of AWT?
Does AWT solve any problem or answer any question?

Postscriptum 2
By the way, I still wait your answer for the cork and bucket puzzle.
You had many ideas again, but no answer!
Still, you should observe that physics is very similar to a multiple choice exam: any theory is evaluated on its capability to answer correctly. Experience is the examinator, mathematics or logic is the method!

Of course, math model is important. But it's definitely not the first step in the process of understanding, because the physic isn't a blind piling of equations under hope, some idea will come later. It will not come. At least, such approach wasn't very successful yet (the forty years old string theory with no relevant output till now as an example).

I suppose, Maxwell has used an mechanical engineering approach in Aether understanding, instead - bellow is the famous model of coupled coil electrodynamic circuit of his:

I don't think so. Prof. Einstein has definitely it's own idea about the way, how the relativity is working. He believed in Aether, for example and he didn't believed in black holes and gravitational waves existence - so he had some own intuitive (though not very correct) idea, different from formal math model, definitely. The Einstein-Aether approach is studied in recent times.

Do you really talk with me? My answer was the very first one.

If not, it will be the same problem, like at the case of superstring theory - no less, no more. But I believe, the AWT proposes the simplest & final solution of TOE possible. We all believed on the quiet, the underlying math model of Universe is simple - so now we can see, it's nearly trivial. Such approach is incredibly powerfull though and it answers a lotta questions at the same time - in fact I can serve as an answering machine here just by using it! The dark matter & energy, the Universe origin & evolution, the entanglement & photon nature, etc. - all these questions were explained here using a AWT readily and easily using illustrations. Of course, this theory is very qualitative under present stage of development, but it can be adopted for computer solution easily. I believe, some formal math approach will be developed soon, because the whole theory is based just on two single equations. But the formal solution of such model is just a matter of mathematic, not physic. The physic isn't just an mathematical exercises and the intuitive model of AWT demonstrates it clearly. It fills the gaps between formal math models and intuitive physic understanding by using a real life physic models and analogies: wave mechanic, optics, particle and bubble foam models.

This post has been edited by Zephir on Sep 2 2006, 11:00 PM

Lalabatros,

Of Zephir,

We have been here many times. We have to accept that these final sentences have been translated from one language to another .. it seems likely that English is not Zephir's first language .. the subtle point made in these sentences does not appear to translate into Zephir's native tongue.

Of Good_Elf

Even with the result thrust under my nose I cannot see how to resolve it .. therefore I cannot say how Einstein might have done it. My best wishes in your endeavour to become smarter by the start of next week.

-C2.

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Sep 3 2006, 12:09 AM

The English isn't definitely my very first or even second language - but I suppose, the "may not " doesn't mean "cannot", here:

According to the General Theory of Relativity space without Aether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense.

So what? How the Aether is supposed to transfer light waves, if without

"...Aether would be no propagation of light ..."
but
"...the idea of motion may not be applied to it ..."..??

Is the light wave a sort of motion - or not?

This post has been edited by Zephir on Sep 3 2006, 12:51 AM

No Zephir, you have been told that the "aether" in Einstein's 1925 has nothing to do with light propagation. You know the complete quote, so stop lying to yourself and stop trying to lie to us. Here is the sentence that you keep leaving out, you little cheat:

But this ether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable media, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it.

This post has been edited by Pupamancur on Sep 3 2006, 12:58 AM

.."space without Aether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light"...

By Einstein, without Aether is no space, without space no light propagation. End of story.

WITHOUT massive environment the WAVE phenomena is unthinkable. The light wave as such is the main reason for considering of Aether hypothesis. You simply have no explanation for this fact and I'm not very interested about subjects of belief from ANYBODY.

This post has been edited by Zephir on Sep 3 2006, 01:02 AM

If you don't understand what you are reading, of course that you keep producing garbage.

But this ether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable media, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it.

Do you know what he was refering to?

This post has been edited by Pupamancur on Sep 3 2006, 01:00 AM

Of course, Einstein was reffering the Aether with the transversal wave spreading at this point. And he was even PERFECTLY TRUE!

If you would know something about the real physic, you should know, the transversal (so called capillary) wave spreading has nothing to do with absolute motion of wave environment. With respect of surface wave spreading, the water surface behaves like the passive elastic membrane with no underwater motion at all. The underwater motion simply cannot be detected using such waves.

After all, this is the only reason, why the Maxwell's Aether concept based on the transversal wave spreading can predict the very same result, like the Michelson-Morley experiment: the light speed invariance.

This is a quite simple logic, my dear Pupa and you've no arguments to refute it...

Whole postensteinian physic is simply wrong in the point of Aether existence - try to face it.. Just because of trivial mistake in assumption, the Aether is able to spread just the longitudal waves. The correct Maxwell's assumption and it's result derived by Lorentz was simply ignored - why?!? What we know by now, the transversal wave spreading model of light matches perfectly the quantum foam model of vacuum.

This post has been edited by Zephir on Sep 3 2006, 01:29 AM

Nope.

<Rest of the usual Zephir word salad snipped>

This post has been edited by Pupamancur on Sep 3 2006, 01:19 AM

Oh, yes...

Zephir,

English is my first language .. trust me.. the interpretation you suggest does not exist within formal English. If you feel there might be a misinterpretation then you must look at the original German.

-C2.