Double slit experiment, Quantum consciousness

Hey Good Elf, et al.,

The five String theories, M-theory and GR are all background dependent. They all suggest how the background bends and curves but they do not permit us to derive a definition of the background. For years I have pondered the question, "What the heck is bending?" I think an extended entangled 4-brane is an appealing approach towards answering this question. In light of the DCQE experiment, particles viewed as the ends of strings stuck to the brane wall at least provides a somewhat intuitive picture. So my question then becomes, "How did our particular 4-brane become so enormous? Why are these 3 spatial dimensions and time extended and not the others? And how the heck can you visualize Witten's 0-brane?

Agreed. This feature calms the quantum "jitteriness" and which in tum permits the inclusion of GR. But the reason I am considering the Planck Length (and Planck Time) as a starting point is to take advantage of the Uncertainty Principle in trying to figure out if the void can really be a something.

Bigger and bigger again as the amount of time continues to decrease?
Wavefunction properties
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...ntum/wvfun.html

Possibly of particular interest is is that the wavefunction for a free particle implies a precisely determined momentum and a totally uncertain position (edit!). A volume of space with nothing in could easily have zero momentum and could therefore be 'anywhere'. I am not sure but .. if you reduce the amount of time to make a measurement it seems possible that the uncertainty of 'everything' might increase .. just a thought.

-C2.

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Jul 31 2006, 08:50 PM

I've been thinking along those line but in terms of:

speed of light * density of space^2 = 1 / speed of gravity.

In other words, the speed of light and speed of gravity are reciprocally related.

Light operates along the lines of a point to point jump between "nodes" of matter. Whereas gravity operates as a 1/d^2 force between then. Well what is the d here? It's in terms of units of light speed distances.

Imagine pieces of quantum information being communicated in a network and hopping from point to point and each point being representing a unit of space (the form of this network determines the properties of space and matter within it).

Anyway, if this quantum information hops from node to node over units of time, we can consider this to be the motion of light.

Now gravity operates as a force. A force is not directly equated to a unit of energy, but instead a force is a communication rate. For example, the gravitation force could propogate instantly throughout the universe but this doesn't allow information to be transmitted instantly because it takes time to integrate this force into detectable units of motion. So gravity could be quantized, similar to gravitons and operate on 1/d^2 forces. But consider that there's a similar compensating factor, that though gravity is communcated slower, it's almost moving further in this time. So we scale the propogation rate up by d and get d/d^2 = 1/d! In other words, depending on the "density" of space, the speed of light could go faster or slower while gravity could be reciprocally related.

If we look at a baseline chain of these nodes with spacings of 1 between them then light propogates this distance each unit of time and gravity propogates at a delay of 1/1^2 or still 1 and both the "speed of gravity" and "speed of light" match.

If we stretch them out to double the distance or light would move twice as fast but gravity would move half the speed.

Now if the light we see is propogating both via this gravitational force as well as via. these nodes (i'm thinking this is similar to the shadow boson particles for fermions that Good Elf is talking about), we need to consider what possible rates are valid once you consider that self-interference could occur.

Obviously things work fine when both the "speed of gravity" and the "speed of light" are the same, as at each node, light only interacts with itself in-phase, or 0 deg difference.

In this case if d=1 then d = 1/d and the velocities through both modes are self sustaining.

... but that's not the only possibility. If light were to interact with itself phase shifted 360 degs, then again no interference would occur, but of course these two pathways must physically diverge until this phase shift is satisfied before recombining (I'm thinking virtual particles here).

I'll try to do a bit of math here, the phase shifts from node to node could be seen as 0, 2pi, 4pi etc. or 2k*pi. We can probably ignore the 0 as it just creates a DC offset that can't be differentially measured.

To put it more mathematically,

d-1/d = 2pi*k (k=0,1,2,3...)

(You can see the symettry here by swapping the terms 1/d with d and using an inverse space)

And this could allow for d and 1/d to have fractional components that rotate data as they pass through space.

So space could losslessly transmit frequencies that are multiples of some fundamental (quanta and plancks constant) but it would appear if this view is correct that the density of space alters what frequencies can be transmitted losslessly Here's an interesting thought, if the universe isn't entirely closed or at least if it still has a source of new information like the Big Bang, then it may not be impossible to utilize this to, in a lossy fashion, see events in alternate dimensions, or alternately if frequencies can be shifted then they can resonate through other spaces or if alterations in this network or an observer can move to other densities of space, then their "light speed" space would be altered as they'd be experiencing things through different resonant pathways.

Anyway, virtual particles are probably a result of alternate pathways being taken that can delay the travel of a wave by some integral number of cycles before coming back to reinforce itself - for example if we have a split between two paths and one pathway has double the "spacial density", then gravity propogates twice as fast, while light propogates half the speed, if these paths later recombine in our "real light speed space", then all these delays must be reinforcing and so 2pi*d, 2pi*2d, 2pi/d and 2pi/2d must all end up at the same phase (though by altering the density of both pathways you could have them recombine losslessly with a phase shift that's not a multiple of 2pi) when they reconnect - this would result in half the energy continuing on at light speed but a delayed version of it appearing later, with an overall spread in space or time occuring during this action, so it's like splitting a particle.

Now the interesting thing about all this view is that ideas of conservation of energy or constant light speed velocity aren't exactly necessarily, they're naturally derived by the fact that any observation made within such a variable light speed medium will only be able to make these types of observations after things have evolved for a period of time. You could fill this space with energies moving through any pathways in an infinite number of dimensions etc. but it turns out that most all of these interfere with themself and also, once you consider that observations of all of this aren't possible, then an observer will see primarily (not entirely) only see a thin plane that passes through whatever space has the same local "density" as where the observations are made from.

Interestingly enough also is that science can't do much more than provide statistics for chaotic events too and that only the periodic, recurring, enduring or otherwise predictable structures are the limit to which science can understand.

Anyway, I think magnetic field lines occur using a similar principle, the lines don't intersect (at least in our light speed plane) and they could be seen to be cyclic with an equivalent phase component surrounding a space with variable density, and this I believe can be generalized all the way up to data flowing through a large closed network is restricted in its paths or be destroyed. (I'm primarily an electronics, software guy if you haven't guessed ).

Overall, I'm working on trying to find transformations that can mirror many systems together and unify them as having properties inherited from any large scale randomly connected structure and that the specifics depend generally on where observations are made but I think the fundamental laws of nature, and observations of a light speed medium with wave like properties exists in any most any randomly generated computational structure.

But it's still not clear exactly how gravity enters the picture but I think it has to do with all physical measurements being relative and differential. If you're constantly differentiating something, higher frequencies (and reciprocally shorter wavelengths and sizes) end up predominating while longer wavelengths die off. This might seem to imply we should see the Big Bang blue shifted, but actually the "blue shifting" would be local - no differential measurements that emphasize higher frequencies are made in a vacuum. So we "recalibrate" on this relative and differentiated reality and this would make older information appear to have more red shifted (or less differentiated) characteristics.

When you differentiate a sinusoid, you not only get a 90 deg phase shift but you get a gain proportional to the frequency.

If you extrapolate on this idea for differential calculus, you can create something using a fourier transform that mimics what might be considered fractional derivatives. If particles move in waves, they could be doing so via. recursive differentiation. Normally we apply the derivative for a sine and get:

sin'(x) = x * sin(x+pi/2)

But if we made derivatives a continous function and said over time this recursive differentiation as viewed continuously could look like this:

sin'(t)(x) = x^t * sin(x+t*pi/2)

For example, integration would be a -1 differentiation and become:

sin'(-1)(x) = x^-1 * sin(x-pi/2) = -cos(x)/x

But you could recursively differentiate 100, 0.01 differentiations as well.

Now you can watch the evolution of a recursive differentiation of space over time and see waves propogating through space at values less than 90 degs as well as see the growth in shorter wavelengths over time (gravity and relative observations of red shifting?! ).

I don't know. But there are lots of little neat pieces. Something else to consider is that we only sense forces, not matter. We only indirectly sense matter via. detecting and interpretating these individual quantized force. So in the end you only need to predict force measurements. (In many ways this is obvious)

This post has been edited by StevenA on Jul 31 2006, 10:12 PM

Hey Confused2,

I am not sure I follow what you are stating... It seems to me that as you reduce the amount of time to make a measurement you would decrease uncertainty such that as time approaches zero, uncertainty approaches zero (we're just talking empty space for the moment). Planck's constant provides the lower limit on the uncertainty. As a result, I "arbitrarily" choose the Planck length as the lower limit of distance and Planck time as the lower limit of duration. This volume of space (because it has finite size) can contain zero momentum but it doesn't have to. Empty space (if there is such a thing) should contain quantum fluctuations (the ZPE) even though the net momentum is zero.

What I am postulating is that when we inject some amount of energy into otherwise empty space, the dimensional size of these fluctuations increase. Energy causes an increase in the local size of X sub B and X sub C and decrease in X sub A (extended space on the X axis). When a sufficient quantity of energy is localized in a certain volume, it somehow (I'm still trying to think through this part) gets "trapped", better yet, confined.

This is probably premature to the discussion, but the analogy that I have built thus far looks like this. Consider a photon "counter rotating" in a ring laser. (Good Elf's link to Is the electron a photon with Toroidal Topology?
is a good start.) If you make the ring laser small enough, will it look like an electron? In this scenario, the electron’s classical radius is a manifestation of the energy confined by the curled up dimensions. In this case, the local curled up dimensions are much larger than the Planck length. The electron moving through space appears as a localized distortion of the “nugget” of space that it occupies at a given point in time. When moving is a straight line at a constant speed, the transmission from one nugget to the next (X sub B to the next X sub B and so forth) does not induce resistance because the electron is moving along a continuous axis. But if we make the electron turn, the transition causes the energy to move from X sub B to Y sub B (as one possibility) which does induce resistance because X sub B gets smaller and Y sub B gets bigger as the energy switches coordinates (X sub A also gets larger and Y sub A gets smaller). Does this look like inertia? (Maybe I should have put this in yq’s thread on Higgs…). The rest mass of the electron is induced by the expansions of the curled up dimensions (to confine the energy), which reduces the extended dimension. The reduction in the extended dimension appears as gravity. (This explanation is overly simplified, because I have only discussed the X coordinate, but hopefully the point is clear enough).

Finally, if we inject a positron into the space with the electron (in such a way that they eventually collide) annihilation occurs and 2 photons shoot off is opposite directions with inversely proportional spins. The collision appears to take place between point particles (at least down to 10^-18 m). In my analogy, the interaction of the opposite charges, which are spinning in opposite directions in the curled up dimensions, causes the dimensions to release (no longer be able to confine) the energy as the energy of both particles attempts to occupy the same localized curled up dimensional space. As the energy is released, the curled up dimensions shrink back down to their minimal permissible size (around the Plank Length) and the extended dimension gets proportionally bigger.

I apologize for getting way off the topic of this thread. Please let me know if you (or anyone else) would like me to move this discussion to a different one. Thanks!

This post has been edited by Why Not? on Jul 31 2006, 11:51 PM

Why_Not?

I suggest copying and pasting the mass/inertia bits of your last post into 'Particles have mass' and continuing the discussion there.

-C2.

Good Elf and all
Please excuse me. I do not want to inter-fear with your incredible research and magnificent approach to new theory.
However if any room exists for someone who wishes to learn, I would ask permission to board the ship from time to time with questions.
My reason for interruption is because I have found something that I can not even believe possible, so this is why I try to follow some of the theories.
Good Elf
Can you tell me if I am mistaken about not finding your user posted image quoted to me?
User posted image

In general I want to thank you all for sharing your thoughts on the forum.
It is truly a gift to read.
I must admit I am not up to speed with all the math and research, but I see the thought patterns and I enjoy the challenge of the evolutionary progress of idea.
Thank you
Boneheaded

This post has been edited by boneheaded on Aug 1 2006, 01:54 AM

Hey everyone,

Confused2, Copied as suggested. Probably a bit more than you had in mind but we can do the weeding over there.

StevenA, I am still getting through your post. Quick comment though... I believe it has been experimentally verified that gravity travel at or very very very close to c. Not that this is overly problematic, but I still need to get through your post. Should have comments later...

boneheaded, fell free to jump right in, just keep in mind, the waters are not always warm!

Feynman double slit experiment fails in the assumption that only one particle is emitted at some time!

I believe that actually a short burst of particles are emitted and so different particles pass through both slits and interact after.
The experiment should be made with an improvement, with a precise count detector of how much particles are emitted at a time. This is very feasible.

For some more details visit: Feynman double slit experiment


There are special photodiodes that can determine exactly the quantity of the energy of the received photons at any time. They are used for example in SPET medical apparatus of Nuclear Medicine to obtain the spectrum and quantity of the received photons.
I suggest that prior to the experiment such kind of diodes be used to determine exactly the type and quantity of photons are produced at any emission event.

Hi Boneheaded,

Here is an animation indicating the nature of propagating light from a dipole. This is a form of "coherent radiation".

The text "User posted image" means that the image that I linked to has disappeared from the Internet (at least the link given there). This site now locks down changes to the posts so I can't change anything in them after one hour now... Therefore the link dies. Naturally I save all my posts but a number of my linked images have "disappeared" lately. I have not any specific right to use these images except the link is clear and the original sites are usually available, and this is for scientific purposes. I cannot just "steal" images and I try to take only what is absolutely necessary. The original links are retained. In some cases where no such image exists or is part of another much larger document I have extracted it myself, but not "excessively" according to copyright and where a lot is used I usually quote. All links can be determined using right click "Copy" and then paste into notepad or other text editor. The original page can usually be easily found by stripping the "suffix" off the address and putting it into the URL. Naturally there are other images on the web as illustrations. I can't comment entirely on your reference since you do not identify the post but it is probably this one...
Double slit experiment, Quantum consciousness Good Elf Note it is best to click on "posted" in each post's top bar and the link is exposed for you to copy into the clipboard.
I am unsure what your problem is but this still has the image available to me when I load the web page. There are a number of possibilities such as the server was down at the time you accessed it or my browser still has the file in it's cache. Alternatively you are not waiting long enough to load the larger animation image or need to refresh you browser.

Some really good animations can be found at this site regarding electromagnetism...
WELCOME TO THE ELECTROMAGNETICS SITE of Dr 'Bas' Lago I apologize to Dr. Lago for not fully crediting him with his excellent educational articles. It is very hard to always fully recognize the great work out there in the internet.



This is the image again in case you may have missed it and you should see it if you wait long enough to download it. The images are compressed by this site to fit a maximum surrounding box so this sometimes degrades the image and it is best to view this image in another page like this...
EM Dipole wave

That is the same with the mathematics. You will not see too much maths on my posts since the maths usually exist in original works out there in cyberspace. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. I hope everyone understands if it already exists there is no need for me to plagiarize their work. I will either link a paper or leave some bits unsaid since they are in standard texts.

Cheers

Hi Why Not?, StevenA, fivedoughnut, boneheaded, Confused2, Zephir et al,

I have been considering the implications of..
"A Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser" by Yoon-Ho Kim [1], R. Yu, S.P. Kulik, Y.H. Shih, and Marlon O. Scully Phys.Rev.Lett. 84 1-5 (2000).
in this post above...
Double slit experiment, Quantum consciousness: Good Elf
I needed a little time to get my mind entirely around this idea and to fully understand this point "abstractly". I need to pay more heed to my own "rhetoric" when I say that a photon exists in a single moment in its own time. Since it travels at the speed of light it suffers the most extreme form of "length contraction" and the most extreme form of "time dilation". This means it is a single "event" localized in a very tiny "relativistic space" and an "instant in time"... the time it takes the quanta of light associated with the event to pass the observers. That depends on what ensemble of quanta are associated with the event. Any "real" event will be composed of some short observation in time.

Wherever it goes and whenever it has been even if that is the "period of the Universe", this is a single moment in which the photon is created and destroyed. In this special event the entangled photons are on the one wavefront of the "shell of light". A single brane that may take billions of years to propagate around the universe. The photon never weakens or dissipates because if an interaction ever occurs the photon will collapse out from the brane of our Universe and be "seen" as that characteristic "flash of light" ... very small and as bright and as new as the moment it was "born". This is part of a bosonic event where one of the entangled photons may be destroyed at one point in time (in our Universe) but another of the accompanying photons may be interfered with at a totally different time in our Universe (still on the same "expanding" shell... the wavefront). In actual fact this is a definition of a single instant "frozen" forever... . While that "instant" propagates "around" our Universe that moment remains able to be active and modified by this process .... possibly forever. Everywhere it touches and everywhere it has been and everywhere it is going to be in the future is a single local event in our spacetime.

The only way this can work is this is the actual meaning of time itself. Suddenly a single propagating event is "now" and providing we can get to that wavefront and intercept it the events associated with it (and there may be more than one event)... are not beyond altering. The final result is once the wavefront has passed "beyond" our mechanical ability to "intercede" it becomes our "history" and it may still be in the future of other places and times, unseen to our immediate perception but physically beyond the light cone wall. These distant places, some in the past and otherwise in our future, will influence the events happening here (as seen by "observers" inside time) in some ways... maybe not able to be directly understood... but certainly "entangled" in fate with whatever happened at that time "here". The Universe is surely a "Hologram".

If you can really get this idea then you must surely understand really what time is about. It is not time as defined in that experiment for instance. Nothing is "erased" since all that is "simultaneous". You can't "erase" what has not passed into time. Wow! Think about it! On that wavefront for that entangled photon event there can be no "delayed choices" nor "erasures" since the results there are "timeless" and are the quintessential "instant". It also indicates that time is indeed composed of "events" propagating on the brane of our Universe... and is not a "book" with pages as many have suggested. This is not a conjecture but an experimental "fact".

Cheers

Do you think the size of the tiny relativistic space might be in some way related to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle?

-C2.

Good Elf,

Yes, the ever changing instant!

Hey guys, I think the reason why you can't go faster than the speed if light is because light speed is effectively infinite in terms of meters per second - actually light speed is in different dimensionless units.

Check out these two posts:

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=112426

(If the above doesn't make sense, read this one and try the above again)

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=112476

The reason why light appears to take so many paths is probably because the environment is relatively disconnected from ours and using a different reference for time within it (basically we could be exchanging photons at a slower rate externally, while within the experiment a photon is constrainted over a small cyclic environment and this skews the apparent rates of times between the observers system and the experimental one).

Imagine having a single photon trapped and resonanting in a system with a high "Q" back and forth within this system, similar to tuning an antenna to a specific frequency, and creating many events in a short period of time and then eventually hitting a detector and passing out of the system. Now if an observe resides in an area that is not as finely tuned, he won't experience as many similar interactions within this period of time, so rates of time appear skewed.

I've got an interesting idea. I'll start a new thread.

This post has been edited by StevenA on Aug 3 2006, 12:55 AM

Hi Confused2, Why Not?, StevenA, fivedoughnut, boneheaded, Zephir et al,

If you think about the way light behaves, as a spreading wavefront traveling in all possible directions, everywhere it can go across the age of the universe for all "entangled" particles on a single wavefront for each event... this delineates the "space" being "compressed into that single "event". This is sometimes a small region of space... consider a closed room with no windows. The photons emitted inside the room are all absorbed inside the room. Then I ask the rather "odd" question what does that "absorbed" really mean? I am convinced that within that room is a virtual "Hall of Mirrors", each mirror is a sub-atomic particle and a room has a lot of them. There will be sub-atomic event horizons that the same wavefront will be "trapped by time", always heading in the general direction but never really getting there. In that sense the wavefront never ends but since this is light we are speaking about nothing can catch up or pass any of those wavefronts from "our perspective". However there is a possible delayed choice "potentially" waiting on the edge of the envelope... even inside the closed room. The other aspect is the room connects with the brane of our Universe and it is never very far away.

This compressed space as seen by the photon is a volume of wave interference and the interactions occur only on the end paths of the system where many bosons are found. The interaction "shell" that surrounds this emission zone of the photon are "boundary conditions". The boundary conditions are "Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle" since that defines the "projection operator" as shown here on this page...
The Uncertainty Principle Section 2.1
Then have a look at "Section 2.5 Mathematical elaboration" and the equations 9 and 10 sum up what we have there as projections on an "action surface" with . I do not believe that we can use this maths to predict any individual event since the maths would be impossible to perform in any case. Clearly the projection is multidimensional and self adjoint. Now can we do this maths... I dunno?

What Wikpedia says of h-bar is this... "Dirac's constant or the "reduced Planck's constant",., differs only from Planck's constant by a factor of 2π. The SI unit of measurement of Planck's constant is joule per hertz, or joule per (turn per second), while the unit of measurement of Dirac's constant is joule per (radian per second). The two constants are merely conversion factors between energy units and frequency units." The constant h is the "Unit Impulse" and this is also the units of angular momentum (spin).

Look here about the action principle....
Principle of Least Action
In particular we can read that you may summarize the principle as a geodesic line such that...

This is the essential difference to remember about "photons" and about "particles"...

An excellent concept of General Relativity is in this paper as short as it is. This discussion shows the relationship between "action" and 'Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle" for varying mass. This would also relate to de Broglie's Relationships.

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Aug 3 2006, 06:02 AM

Hi All,

On reading I think in the last quote above from "A Call to Action: Edwin F. Taylor"... should read... "Nature’s three-word command to the photon is Explore all paths!" not probably... "Nature’s three-word command to the electron is Explore all paths!" Only a truly massless particle can truly "explore all paths", that rules out electrons... I am sure it explores all paths "possible" though. Any comments?

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Aug 3 2006, 07:00 AM