Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

Hi all,



THEY

There is some HUP inside your piano too! Remember that for every TWO keys there is one string. This is probably the craziest thing I remember learning about tuning. The poor piano tuners (people)! Each time they adjust one key, the other side of the string is affected. Over, and over again, they must do this until BOTH strings are simultaneously in tune. A "spool" (not the right term) is what the string "hinges" on, and may or may not "slip" a little at any given moment. The math that makes this "possible" (to figure a MOVING length of mass, a CHANGING two-way tension) is the RATIO and approximations.

The second part for less than perfect tuning is the accuracy. BTW, the notes that I used for example were rounded off to integers. (sorry) I didn't start getting the accuracy needed to produce "c" as a constant, until I worked out 35 digits of 2^(1/12). Even if musicians wanted to calculate their frequencies this accurately, the gears (or mechanics) of the tuners themselves wouldn't allow for that SMALL of a change to the length & tension. (you would need <nano-tuners.)


So, onward, into the light!

To get the "linewidth" to a single frequency is impossible due to HUP. Here is a paper describing the current limit.

A phase locked, fiber laser-based frequency comb: limit on optical linewidth*

And, to "find the perfect octave?" Well, not "exactly" perfect!

Ultraprecise Measurement of Optical Frequency Ratios

C2

I would say, that anything Doppler effected would be AT the receiver due to velocity difference. Changes in velocities also happen in mediums, and
"obstacles" like barriers and slits.


regards,

T.Roc

Jal,

I re-read the experimental setup a couple of more times, and also your
original questioning of the post.

Here are the points that I think are important in the set up of the experiment.

http://www.tongue-twister.net/mr/physics/bbo_photo.htm

1. the UV-pump beam (wavelength 351nm)

2. They used high-speed infrared film

3. The UV-light from the pump laser and fluorescence from the crystal were held back by stacks of UV-cutoff filters.

4. We used 681nm, 702nm, 725nm interference filters

5. A stack of cutoff filters (UVHaze F3, UVHaze F4, O2 F5) further reduce the background light.

6. A great number of photographs were taken on Kodak high-speed BW infrared film with different exposure times.

7. The optimal contrast on the film was achieved for exposure times of 1 hour at a UV-pump power of 165mW.

8. Polarization-entangled photons are observed at the intersection of the two circles.
------------

The source beam is UV, it is filtered out so none reaches the infrared
sensitive film. Only infrared is reaching the film.

As to the actual number of discrete down converted photons, I haven't a real
clue, since each exposure was for an hour.

Notice that each color filter shows the overlap of the polarized cones of that
IR spectral wavelength/energy level.

Apparently the configuration of the crystal lattice polarizes the photons in different
orientations to the incident beam according to their phasing, which results in
circular patterns captured on the film.

Jal said:

Fair questions. I think it takes us right back to the interference of the DSE and
why do single photons form the outline of a wave pattern and not fall anywhere
inside or outside of the wave outline?....

I'll take a WAG.

IMO, the photon's wavefunction energy follows the instantaneous amplitude at any point
along the sine wave curve. Depending upon where the sine wave "grounds out" along
the curve, that specific amplitude "energy point" of the wave is recorded as a detected point on the screen.

I'm guessing that the BBO crystal is emitting circularly polarized light.

Any other explanations?? Comments???


LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Dec 9 2006, 10:10 AM

jal,LL,D/L, All,

Downconversion from BBO ( http://www.tongue-twister.net/mr/physics/entangled.htm )

I must admit I can't make much sense of this. I'm not sure I agree with LL's suggestion. There's a pdf file in this link http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/11/9 which I can't open due to primitive equipment. I assume you and LL have looked at it and it hasn't helped.

My guess would be that there are many millions of photons involved. I suspect the momentum of each photon will increase with frequency so conservation of momentum in the XY plane suggests that if the higher frequency photon paths deviates by an angle a from the incident beam then the lower frequency photon must deviate by a larger angle (and at 180 degrees), hence one dot on one circle matches a dot diametrically opposite on the other circle.

It looks like the total momentum of the two photons has to add up to the momentum of the pump photon so defining the frequency of the one photon automatically defines defines the frequency of the other.

My guess is that the importance of the result is that the frequency of the emitted photon has been decided by a filter AFTER the UV photon has hit the crystal and both photons 'agree' with whatever decision has been made.. hence 'entanglement' . I'm not sure the bright bit where the circles overlap is particularly important given the significance of the 'main' result about entanglement.

Could well be wrong.

Best wishes,

-C2.

Edit .. the absence of two concentric circles on each side suggests there must be some asymmetry about the way the 'decision' is made .. I don't understand where this might come from.

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Dec 9 2006, 12:20 PM

Good Elf, all,

"THEY", thanks now I feel quite ridiculous on the space nine satellite.

Good Elf, Wooooooo there chap, it was how the tread was going as someone had mentioned already, off the subject. We are dealing with tangents and should stay focused that is all, no offense given and you did get the point. Congratulations!

Get back back to the problem, of the Double Slit Experiment and you said it yourself best, stop the philosophy and deal with the problem in the 21 century mindset.

I told you to have fun, not to write a essay on the nutty paper, it was a satire on how things were going.

I like what Confused2, jal, TRoc, "THEY", and LL, but things went different directions and that seems to be the norm on most post, I wanted to help and keep our eye on the problem.

But what would happen if everyone stayed on track and worked on the problem as ONE! We do not need to agree on everything, but keep pushing towards the solution. If I caused you offense, I will step on there toes and tell them to register and tell you what they think, I kind of like the idea now that I mentioned it.

That was what the paper was all about. I am on your side!

Duality/Lisa

This post has been edited by Duality on Dec 9 2006, 03:32 PM

Good Day all!
Let’s look at the theory again.
http://www.joot.com/dave/writings/articles...anglement.shtml

Do you want to speculate on another/NEW mechanism to account for all of the electrons emitting a photon in two circular patterns?

ALSO, the total energy of all of the electrons in the circles MUST EQUAL THE TOTAL ENERGY OF THE TWO PHOTONS THAT WERE EMITTED.

Keep in mind that you would not “see” the circle if there had not been energy/photon to activate the electrons at those positions.
What are we going to do….. science or science fiction or NEW SCIENCE?
JAL

Jal,

Make sure Good Elf reads the note above yours. It was not meant to cause harm.

Lisa

Duality
No problems
We just entangled our posts.
To emphasize
What mechanism did the high-speed infrared film make a record for all of us to see?
ACCIDENTAL DISCOVERY?
jal

jal, all,

Understood, I live for discoveries and better understanding. If I did not, I would not get paid...

Remember, all light focused or not is still light, radio/< 3 x 10^9 Hz - Gamma Rays/ > 3 x 10^19 Hz and the speed limit is the same as well as the dynamics that goes with the laws already well established.

Will do some thought on this, but I do not see on the surface how it would change the weirdness/strange behavior of the DSE.

Best,
Duality/Lisa

Jal and All,

Here is some info on BBO crystals and their characteristics.

http://bbo-crystal.optical-components.com/

http://www.optical-components.com/BBO-crystal.html

http://www.unitedcrystals.com/BBOProp.html

These crystals are non-linear and generate multi-order harmonics easily. This is a clue.

I believe that your question about how a circle is formed from a collective of
individual photons originates in the crystal and supports my contention of
the instantaneous detected energy level of the sine wave at a specific energy
point along the sine curve. I think perhaps C2 is correct also, in that the
momentum (a function of the energy of the secondary photons) comes into play.

I think that we have to also consider that we are dealing with a crystal matrix.
There are likely very different atomic locations performing the down conversions
thruout the depth of the crystal lattice, so the angle of photon emission from
different origination points in the lattice will refract at different angles according
to their energy levels and phase timing relationship to the incident UV photons.


Other opinions welcome.

LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Dec 9 2006, 05:26 PM

Duality
I know that you have two eyes...
You got to compartmentalize your brain or it will turn to mush.
You have more tech knowledge in this area than us.
Put the theories that you have in an other compartment and look at the recorded info.
REMEMBER .... CONSERVATION OF ENERGY INVOLVES SPACE LOCATION AND TIME LOCATION.
There is a physical mechanism that was recorded.
When we have finished analysing the mechanisms .... what will be left ... will probably be IT.
JAL
ps In my opinion...The cones indicate a path towards understanding

jal,
UV frequency is about 10^14 Hz
E per photon about 10^14 x 10^-34 = 10^-20 J
100mW laser is 0.1 J/sec so 0.1/ (10^-20) = 10^19
If we get 1 entangled pair out per 10^6 photons in we get 10^13 pairs per second (oodles!)
Best wishes, -C2.

Confused2!
Hey! This is coming along just fine.
Great!
Now what mechanism made the photons light up the film in two circle pattern?
jal

Hi jal,
You missed
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=152207
or did it not make sense?-C2.

Hi all,


Maybe this will help.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_polarization

(emphasis added)

You can also see the relevance to C2's last question about the "energy" changes due to Doppler being "seen" at the source, receiver, or "IN BETWEEN".

As far as "SEEING", I have to say, at the receiver. But "HAPPENING" is unprovable, at this stage of our technical ability.

This is the BIG difference between QM's "counter-intuitive" explanation, and one that could be understood by "mechanism" of "on the way" causation. They have their ANSWERS, and their EXPLANATIONS, that includes "the unknowable" factor (Copenhagen). The ANSWERS are right, but the EXPLANATION is not. I think most of us here will agree to that, to some degree or another.

If we come up with a model, whose "mechanism" takes the data from start to finish, and matches the answer, then we have what we are looking for. Cause "following" Effect in "time". Cramer pointed out, clearly, that Schroedinger's equations can (and ARE) solved for BOTH. This makes the "time" fuzzy, and leads to another "set" of explanations that are also "counter-intuitive" (don't make sense). Nobly, QM used Ockham's Razor, and said "we are not going to replace nonsense with nonsense".


My view on this is that we can still have cause following effect in the time-line, AND have two-way wave communication. The "effect" (receiver) does not communicate FROM the moment of the "cause", it ALREADY WAS there. I think of it sort of like a ZIPPER, two sides of "teeth", OFFSET by a MINIMUM ratio. Very different explanations are needed to describe the zipping, and UNzipping, and from the "sides" point of view, and the "zipper piece" (?) point of view.


My theory is very simple. The Universe is FULL of waves of all "kinds". They are all "in step" with c . They can superimpose, and form simple, and complex resonances. When an EM signal leaves the source, it is "zipping" along the E and B field lines. The PROBABILISTIC part of the wave is the one coming BACK from the "receiver", eliminating "dissonances" along the way. This is along the lines of Bayesian Logic. Reducing the "possible" by first eliminating the "impossible".

We already KNOW (fact) that these two bodies were ALREADY communicating. Mach's principle, Inverse square law, Newton Forces, etc. There are "waves" already there. This is a "carrier signal", a non-Zero-point energy, the "background radiation (CMB). If you want to include Gravity with QM, this is the way. It is the "missing fundamental" effect. The "setting" of the permittivity & permeability of free space; once that is stable, or in equilibrium (which it is) " c " is the constant speed for any transfer of energy done by a coupled EM wave. Uncoupled waves do not have to follow such rules (only E OR B, longitudinal/transverse). These do, in fact, have different "base" velocities, and each has very different velocity~vector relationships. (constructive/destructive)

From the Resonance Matrix, you can see that the CENTER of the values is based on the speed of light waves. The "center" for SOUND wave symmetry is NOT in the same place, yet not as far as you might think. The point I want to add here, without going off too far, is that, there is ONE more VELOCITY symmetry indicated by this "matrix". I am going to "presume" (postulate) that it will indicate a SUBLUMINAL average velocity, in addition to the two that we currently have. (for sound and light)


As GE has pointed out, the cavity has a PRE-SET geometry, and that will give "guidance" to the incoming radiation. I think that the Vibration of the wave has a definite geometry as well, AND BOTH are required to give the "final answer". The "handshake" ALREADY is "extended" towards the "hand" (signal). It is "circular" in free space, but can become "chiral" based on the medium (matter).

This should lead to a similar vein in polarization, chirality, and angular momentum.
"Quantizing" this spin into 12 parts (13 steps to "return") allows for a different geometry to be utilized, including just a "few" harmonic divisions of the "circle". The # of turns stays the same, but the distance between full cycles gets larger (the threads of the screw/helice).

Any "overlapping, mixing, interacting, reflecting, entangling, superimposing, etc." would be able to be described by a limited set of ratios to this primary, or Fundamental radius. This way, the "point" in the "center" is not necessarily REAL. Just the "trace" of the helice; a 3D sector of a circle, on a hyperbolic triangle could APPEAR BOTH as a straight line, and a curve, depending on your frame of reference.



regards,

T.Roc



This post has been edited by TRoc on Dec 9 2006, 06:40 PM

Yep!
I missed the post by Laserlight
Did I also miss (in the experiment) that they was more than 2 "smaller" photons?

Laserlight then how come, if there was more than 2 photons, that there was not a random distribution on the film?
TRoc good thing that I looked down or I would have missed your post too.
The circular polerization that you speak of (yes, I read it and understand it) does not explain that the two photons went to all of those locations on the film.
It does not explain the fact that the walk was not random.
Therefore, are we saying that there was only two photons or are we saying that there was more than two photons?
I've put my theory in a compartment. We know yours, we know GE, we know duality.
What did the experiment/film tell us/record/observe?
jal

edit: I'm searching for r3c structure to get more info
http://www.unitedcrystals.com/BBOProp.html

This post has been edited by jal on Dec 9 2006, 07:23 PM