Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

To everyone,

I have search for information that would be digestible and informative in thought.

This most likely will be my last post for some time to come due to the workload, but I really do not like leaving you with this but to use CERN, or Fermilab I think would be an injustice to you.

Just read and think about the implication that it offers, I believe I can honestly express the frustration that QM leaves one. So, hopefully this will give a different perspective and you will not think of it as mainline physics, which btw, I do feel is necessary.

http://nobeliefs.com/light.htm

http://www.seti.org/site/apps/nl/content2....91981&ct=290165

I wish everyone the very BEST!

Carpe Diem,
yquantum

yquantum,

Many thanks for finding those sources for us. Best wishes for work and play.
(Duality replied to me )

TRoc

I'm still thinking .. I will post soon

Best wishes all,

-C2.

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Nov 28 2006, 06:02 PM

TRoc
yquantum's link ( http://nobeliefs.com/light.htm ) addresses some of your points of view. Worth reflecting upon.
yquantum I hope you will still lurk and feed us some info of the results of the next experiments.
Laserlight

Thanks
Everytime that I think that I've reached the end of the road.... I find more "stuff".
I found a model/program (which I'll present later...) that might advance the understanding of a structured spacetime, "SPOT".
I'm going to need the help of a programmer "geek" for that model.
GoodElf
I don't know what other evidence could be presented. We are still left with "interpretations"
Duality
I hope it's not your turn to go too. Don't go too far for too long. We're nice guys/gals...you'll miss us.
Share a beer with us and share some stories.
jal

TRoc,

If we set up a DSE in that brilliant applet ( http://www.echalk.co.uk/Science/Physics/ri...Tank/ripple.htm ) and then we set up another DSE anywhere .. we get another DSE. If you generate extra frequencies every time then the analysis of your next DSE becomes more difficult .. perhaps impossible .. perhaps simply wrong.

If we took an ordinary cardboard box and covered the inside of it with CD's so the whole surace is covered with the reflactive/refractive bits of the cd's.. ready?

Now we drill a hole in one side and another hole in an adjacent side. Shine a light into the one hole and put detector at the other hole. I think I need to check this before I carry on... I just need to peer in .. it's test of something but I'm not sure what. I will report if you do not post meanwhile. hmmm ... glooo

Best wishes,

-C2.

Thanks C2 for the link to the applet with the red and green waves. SCIENCE AND MUSIC ARE RELATED! One such example is one of the xylophones with pipes underneath each of the 'keys'. The pipes, with vibrations, change the pitch. The shorter the pipe, the shorter the vibrations go, the higher the note!

And thanks to yq also for the link to the laser expirement. It was fun to see the light lines get skinnier the further apart the slits go. It was really fun to slide the slits around and observe the light on the board behind it.

"THEY"2

Hi THEY2,

My thanks go specially to yquantum for helping us to get this far and to the other marvellous people who so generously allow us to use their applets and time and so on. There really are a lot of super nice people about.

And thanks for your input too.

Best wishes,

C2.

Hi Jal, laserlight, confused2, Yquantum et al,

Unfortunately I have been very busy the last day or so. I understand people's concerns about the propositions I have made. I will state their basis and proofs here...

When I say proofs ... what I mean is strong experimental basis.

The first point is that any Theory of Everything or String Theory which is "particle free" and utilizes only waves is by definition "already Unified". This means that as long as we stick to the concepts of electromagnetism in this realm we are safe from any challenge from those that would believe otherwise. According to Juan Maldacina and his AdS/CFT theory even gravity is a result of Conformal Field Theory on the lower dimensional surfaces of Universes (this is exactly what we are saying here) so does not 'spoil" the symmetry... once you do away with 'particles".
Wikipedia: AdS/CFT Theory
However I will speak only in terms of our "perceived" dimensions rather "AdS/CFT Dimensions because we cant "see" in those dimensions)
The Special and General Equivalence Principles were the sound principles that Einstein based both his Special and his General Relativity on. These principles have been debated on this Forum "ad nausium" without too much reference to the vast volume of experimental evidence to confirm that the principles in those theories are 'rock solid". I do not want to branch off into areas where we need to debate the interpretation of Special Relativity and the number of people on this forum that cannot or will not accept Einstein's Theories. There have been hundreds of tests and not one has conclusively or repeatedly shown any violations. So dealing with waves instead of particles will remove the current inability to Unify Gravity with the other three forces which are all conjectured to be expressions of electromagnetism (EM and the Strong Force) or conjectured to be an expression of EM and the weak force... (Electro-strong and Electro-weak forces -> Electromagnetism). This way you have an "Already Unified Theory" without the ugliness of quantizing the manifold... All part of a AdS/CFT Holographic Universe.

The next point is in Special Relativity the faster we travel near the speed of light the slower relative time progresses in the rest frame of the traveler. The most extreme case of this is the "rest frame" of the photon itself. In that 'special" frame time is completely arrested for the relatively non-existent life of that photon. The "instant" it is created is the "instant" it is destroyed. Having no time in whcih to perform dynamics really cramps the style of the photon... so how come it has "time" to form standing waves with itself? The answer to this problem is in the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser Experiment. The photons do not "change" the standing wave pattern in space it is already there. It has always been there and it will always be there. The understanding of this is provided by the Wheeler-Feynman Theory of Emitter-Absorbers. The advanced and retarded waves are "canceled" outside the immediate zones in which events are occurring. This is not actually a global cancellation but because of wave theory could re-emerge anywhere where suitable conditions have occurred.

The DCQE Experiment is not a theory ... all that remains is the interpretation. In the case of signal photon and idler photons that have been "entangled", the destruction of the detected signal photon is connected with the way in which the idler photon has been "interacted". If "which way" information has been extracted then the signal photon will form part of a pattern which will have a Gaussian distribution. I stress that the pattern that has a Gaussian distribution not individual photons which have a "fresnel" distribution but "uncorrelated" and are individually Complex Functions. Otherwise the photon is "correlated" and will form part of the diffraction pattern.

What this is saying is the pattern inside of cavities are "already" existent and does not respond "in time" to any dynamic since the original event has formed "outside of time". This is no 'assertion" if you think about it it is simply the way things are. The standing waves in cavities already exist there and the photon just moves over the three dimensional surface as an "illumination" of that existing pattern. An uncorrelated photon does not have the phase relationship to "fit the same pattern". There will be special individual patterns for all uncorrelated photons... and in the real world there will be many of these if you consider that point (eg. Camera Obscura). All correlated groups of photons will have their own separate pattern in which they will partake in only one single set of interference lines. Other sets of interference lines due to uncorrelated sources will form in space and on the screen without mutual interference. This goes the same for all photons of different frequencies which are also not correlated with any photons of any other frequency.... they can't be, they have different wavelengths and frequencies. But they do form their own set as shown by this animation of Zephirs.

These overlap. I noticed Laserlight mentioning energy being converted from one frequency to another and to correlation between different frequencies. I must be quite explicit in these matters, photons do not lose or gain energy by any known process I know of. The arrive at destinations without any changes other than relativistic reference frame changes due to moving sources. I would also like to state that once you have "read" a photon that particular photon can no longer be used to interpret the fate of all "unread" photons. Only "unseen" photons can be used to infer any standing waves in space. The "image" above cannot be seen for a single photon... I hope everyone is agreed that this is not "seen". All that is "seen" is the photon hitting some parts of the screen and not others and the pattern 'builds up" over time.

Therefore I can confidently say that the interference pattern of standing waves "exist" simultaneously everywhere and it is only that the photon "envelope" that propagates around all those places in space "illuminating" the relevant paths of the pattern (seeking all paths). After all this is like a shadow on our spacetime and is not the realm of the "real photon" that only has two places where it has 'reality".... when it is created and when it is absorbed. At some point in time the photon will lose its qubit of information and become uncorrelated in the DCQE Experiment. At that point in time then Wheeler-Feynman Theory comes into play and the function is "suppressed" by a collapse of the wavefront in all space. I have spoken of the phase velocity before. This is not a destructive event in WF Emitter-Absorber Theory since everything in the Universe is waves even the matter. If you are focusing on the "local" events too much then you miss the point of global events where this is not a local phenomenon. It is one of the strongest arguments for higher dimensions I know. The same explanation is used to "mask" or 'suppress" the waves in regions of low probability (if you want to use those terms)... but to have that change you would only need to have a correctly positioned "reflector" to alter the dynamic phase spatially and "bingo" an a particle would have a strong chance of being there. These are then "Kondo Phantoms" see papers by NIST. There are many "Kondo Phantoms" which are every bit as real as the original particle and you would think of them as "multiple reflections" or "images" but electromagnetically these have the same effect as separate individual photons. They are responsible for Electromagnetic Forces in matter. These are also the explanation for "virtual photons"... photons that emerge into existence but connected with the first event for their existence. Do not believe the "random" VP explanation, photon events are "correlated". There are nothing random about these entities. "Kondo Phantoms" of entire atoms have been produced that enter into chemical interactions with "normal matter". "Kondo Photons" also are an extension of this phenomenon.

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Nov 28 2006, 11:30 PM

Hi Jal, laserlight, confused2, Yquantum, {he will be gone for awhile, I was told}, et al,

I have a question before I reply to this comment, could you explain how much you have researched this in order to know how to respond? That is if your physical framework below embodies a set of fundamental assumptions.

There is a way to show who said what, still working on this, hang in there with me guys. I am here because of a friends request {Yq}. Oh, do you mean, Juan M. Maldacena instead of Juan Maldacina sure it was a typo, just want to make sure we are talking about the same person.

quoted by Good Elf,

Yquantum/yquantum, not sure what he has used, but tells me you as well as those on this post have refreshing & awesome desire to have a better understanding in many fields. So I ask this in respect, not sure of gender but I hear it does not matter.

Best of intentions,
Duality/Lisa

Hey Good Elf, TRoc, C2, yq, Duality, LL, jal, et al.

Good Elf, I am a bit fond of the Holographic Principle myself, so I ask this in all sincerity, you seem to be sold on AdS/CFT, so I have to ask... How do you respond to the concluding statements in Juan Maldacena article, http://homepage.mac.com/photomorphose/documents/qpdf.pdf,

TRoc, QM (particularly QED) reduces to good old Maxwell in the classical limit. As such, I doubt it would have a difficult time dealing with FM. Regardless, there are aspects of QM (not necessarily strictly optical) that need to be adequately addressed before you can throw out the QM bath water. To start, could I humbly request your explanation of the photoelectric effect?

C2, I admire your tenacity! You have stated a couple of times that we are not ready to delve into interpretations but that seems to be most of the gist of the last 20 pages or so. Maybe it would help all involved to provide a review of the experimental results (sans the interpretations)?

Can we create a "one photon at a time" DSE? If not, will a "one electron at a time" (or one M&M from yq's link http://www.ncsu.edu/felder-public/kenny/papers/quantum.html ) DSE suffice?

Do the bands (minima and maxima) represent intensity distribution? If so, is this distribution definable by good old wave mechanics?

If yes to the first two, is there any effective way to predict where an individual detection event will occur or are we limited to deducing that it will occur around a maxima with some level of probability? To be more direct, GE and TRoc, within the predictive abilities of your theories, can you determine where the thirteenth (or eighth, or 1,364,297th) photon/electron or M&M will be detected or are you limited to stating that it will land at or near one of the maxima?

This post has been edited by Why Not? on Nov 29 2006, 02:21 AM

Hi Good Elf and All,

HMMMMmmm, think about this comment:

With due respect:
My comment was in the context of how energy is converted to different forms
(frequencies) by interacting with matter.

Do you agree that if you heat matter to white hot it radiates white light photons
at numerous frequencies from infrared and upward thru the visible spectrum.
If the energy source is removed the matter cools and the frequencies that it
radiates become longer as it loses energy and shift toward infrared until a steady
state temperature is reached.

Think about the mechanism going on here at the subatomic level. The electron
energy levels and orbital "distances" are changing over time relative to their
respective protons, therefore their energy level and oscillating frequency is
also changing over time. So, logically there is an electron oscillating frequency
shift that is taking place.

Another example: When 13.56Mhz RF is applied to different gases in a plasma
chamber the gases ionize and radiate different frequencies of light according to
their energy levels. So we inject 13.56 mhz and the byproduct is spectral
light at a different frequency + heat. So we have converted RF energy to
light and heat.

Do you agree? I'm open to other interpretations.

Comments, opinions, discussion welcome,
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Nov 29 2006, 04:03 AM

Hi Duality, Why Not? et al,

Yquantum is a very busy person and has tasks elsewhere and he often has a few cents worth on this Forum. Whatever he says is well worth listening to.

Sorry about typo's. I did mean Juan Maldacena. As you may have guessed you are speaking to a "real elf" here. While Juan Maldacena is a very respected theorist I am something quite different. I am not his "apologist' and I assure you he is not mine. he quite rightfully does not know I exist. I differ from his theory quite significantly and my interpretation and it is quite significantly differently though I agree that an Anti-deSitter Universe is the correct interpretation his "connection" does not dovetail with my interpretation of the same things. I have been pushing this barrow for quite a while now and I would not get any appreciation of the statements I have been making lately from the establishment in either String Theory or within the community of Particle Theorists. When I said:

I meant "my" String Theory, which is well known around this Forum as opposed to standard String Theory (if there is such a thing!). In a nutshell what I am saying is when developing a Unified Field Theory the standard approach is to take the Continuum Theory of Gravity and quantize the manifold at the Planck Length. I have previously argued that this was "illogical" and that the logical theory would be the exact opposite that is "drop" particle theories and use a wave theory connect the added dimensions 'reciprocally" ... as demonstrated in nature with quantum optic principles. This provides a particle free solution that covers all bases and shows how Juan Maldacena's Anti de Sitter Universe as attached to our three dimensional Universe Holographically.

IMHO it is my belief that current String Theories are defunct and need this approach to make them realistic. I can genuinely claim my interpretation is "already Unified" since it is a theory of electrodynamics and gravity in this theory is pure "holographic geometry" (A Pseudo-force... as it was in Einstein's Theories). Yquantum has not expressed any of these theories to me personally but he was instrumental in pointing me toward a String Theory Interpretation of "everything". He is very much along the particle Interpretation of matter and to Richard Feynman and his Quantum Electrodynamic view which in a great part do ascribe. I am also a very strong supporter of the Wheeler-Feynman Emitter -Absorber Theory which so clarifies the "event-scape". He probably does not want to shift from that point of view just now... We are just very good friends on this Forum. He has made some very kind and encouraging statements about my particular version of String Theory and that is what I am imparting to others here. I genuinely believe that this interpretation give an insight that you will find nowhere else, not now , not ever. The reason I do this is because my version allows a very clear view of the physics that conventional String Theory cannot provide since it is still otherwise lost in insoluble problems. My theory is also based entirely on experiments already in existence. It has no Planck Length by definition.

Cheers

Hello all, I have a question & I would like it if someone could help me out. It is about a code & need broken...... I'm not a jaded lover or anything like that, I need help getting into my sons computer. Can anyone help me?

Mom....

If the computer is password protected you won't be able to access it without
the password.

LL

Hi Laserlight, Why Not? and Duality et al,

What I mean is the photons cannot change in energy once created. You are referring to the changing wavelength of Photons radiating from a black body source due to falling temperature. Individual photons do not change wavelength in their "life", even traveling across an entire galaxy they remain the same without loss of energy 'forever"... our time. . The process above and those you are referring to are generally not coherent processes but I will admit that some of the photons emitted from the source that have the same frequency will tend toward coherence as they travel "together". I know you do understand that photons of different frequencies (even slightly different frequencies) cannot be coherent. Even with black body radiation usually the photons are still only a sub-set of all the frequencies possible. So one frequency will drop out and be replaced by other frequencies etc.

Your reference I was referring to was that infra-red photons might be coherent with other photons that are possibly shorter in wavelength. i do not think this would occur. But what will happen is just because there is a barrier (the plate with the dual slits) the waves are in some way continuous even when not seen. This is due to Wheeler Feynman Theory. The boundary conditions still remain throughout all space. So even when one photon every 10 seconds are emitted and not interfered with, as part of the original "strong' source of coherent photons which will still be represented by the complex function at the slits, as one of the original coherent photons it will still be 'illuminating" the same "fixed" pattern inside the cavity as all the other "blocked" photons would have done from outside the cavity. In other words the coherency is taken from the source and is fixed in space at the moment it was created (... from that source). If a photon is "absorbed" then that is the end of its 'coherency" but until then its qubit remains intact forever "our time".

Cheers

Good Elf,

I believe in the concept of an "electromagnetic" universe. Frequency is merely
the mathematical solution to electromagnetic fields. In that context,
you are correct that it is "unified". We simply have not fully developed the
science or math to adequately observe or explain it. As we stated in earlier posts,
science is selectively choosing parts of the various theoretical and experimental
models and trying to fit the various puzzle pieces together to fit a preconceived
new theoretical model. It is impossible to put different scrambled pieces of
different puzzles together and expect to get the right "picture" soluiton.

JMHO.

LL