Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

Laserlight

Thanks and I have had to do this test so long ago in different flavors or approaches. But warning taken, will not take it personal yet I still have much reading to do on this subject on this post and the input given so I do not repeat what has been said.

I am now retired, I am one of those advisor's now helping others with there goals so I already understand there is so very much that needs to be better understood.

Sure I read that somewhere on this DSE site.

maybe

Hi Jal, Laserlight, Montec, Confused2, Janrinze, yquantum, StevenA, "Why Not?", Siau, Jal, Neil Farbstein, Terry Giblin, "THEY" and "THEY2" et al,

It is a good "conclusion" there. I have been looking around regarding several topics and I am truly amazed to find a lot of work by people in the field relating to "self imaging" and the Talbot Spacing.

Note that we have the best description of this phenomena being Bohmian Mechanics and individual particle trajectories but each particle has information about the whole environment through "Talbot Interferences". While stating that non-locality has no classical counterpart it is clear that quantum locality cannot answer these properties which are derived from classical and semi-classical treatments. Exactly how these relate to the problem of tunneling is explored through Bohmian Mechanics. The conclusion "seems to be" that while the "quantum particle's trajectory" is confined and not spread the classical trajectory is indeed spread and "probes" through Talbot Interferences the rest of the entire space. Thus the upshot reported indicates "that at every time any particle has information about the whole system configuration, unless h/2π ≡ 0" (My Note: ... The classical limit). It seems to me that a lot depends on how this is interpreted as to what this means in the context of spatial vacuoles. It suggests that some aspect of the entire space is encoded into the "particle state" of the "propagating photon wave". This can only be "measured" when it is absorbed so this is not a contradiction of my interpretation.

The Bohmian Mechanical view attributes a path to particles individually. This path cannot be know in advance. As an ansaz Bohm proposed that the particle "rode" on a wave that carried it to its final sink. This does not require additional physical dimensions but requires a description of the space in parametric "hidden variables". It is not suggested that this is actually what happens but it is one way in which it may be treated. Another possibility would be additional physical dimensions that remove the need for those parameters. Certainly this behavior is not possible to describe by straight quantum theory but are additional physical dimensions actually necessary? ... Big question eh!! The information of the rest of the reachable space must be encoded in an intermediate configuration space such that the particle can somehow "know" about the other parts of the experiment such as where all the matter is located. While the "spreading" wave provides "global" knowledge of the system the quantum particle cannot spread and so cannot normally have this information. If we allow a Bohmian Interpretation of the trajectory such that each and every particle has a history and different dynamics then this information can be carried to the quantum particle by this configuration space. Thus the local dynamics of the non-spreading quantum particle can "experience" a different version of space through this Talbot Carpet in the configuration space.

My take on this favors the idea that the space itself sees different photons at different frequencies differently... that is the empty space responds in a different way to each and every photon. This is like a resonant line and the way EM waves can pass down it allows the simultaneous superposition of many frequencies all at once ... each frequency carrying its own separate information that is oblivious to all other frequencies. It is as though each frequency and each photon packet has all the space to itself all the time. In the past we simply speak of this as Bose-Einstein Statistics... All photons see space as "personal property" and at low energies at least do not know of the existence of other photons that are co-travelers. On the other hand particles like electrons do not normally share their private space with other particles or other electrons. This is called space quantization and is mandated by the Pauli Exclusion Principle. What this Bohmian Dynamics suggest is even particles like electrons experience different spaces depending on the de Broglie wavelength. This accounts for the different trajectories the particles have. Quantum Physics cannot differentiate these paths so does not have much to say about it. As far a QM is concerned these paths are "indistinguishable".

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Sep 5 2007, 03:31 PM

Hello Laserlight, et al.

The radiation pattern (according to current theory) will be a spherical wave at right angles to the electron's acceleration vector (if the acceleration provides enough energy to overcome the resistance of space to EM radiation).

I think spin has more effect on polarization (left/right circular) of light when the source (atom/molecule) is within a weak magnetic field. This polarization effect appears to be directional within the spherical wavefront with respect to the applied magnetic field.

There is a difference between the field produce by a charged particle moving past a point and an EM wave propagating past a point. The produced/measured electric field at the point only varies in strength when the particle move by. The EM wave, however, changes strength and polarity as it propagates by the point. This is because of the difference between charge and displacement charge. ie The rising field has a vector pointing up while a falling field has a vector pointing down.

Will only happen when all other fields of endeavorer fail.

Hi Good Elf!
It is interesting that we can all read the same paper and get something different from it.

All I got was what he said
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0703161v1
Aspects of nonlocality from a quantum trajectory perspective: A WKB approach to Bohmian mechanics
Authors: A.S. Sanz, S. Miret-Artes
(Submitted on 17 Mar 2007 (this version), latest version 22 Mar 2007 (v2))
p.8
“…. understand how nonlocality operates here, note that the wave packet does not spread with time but remains the same, with its center following the path tracked by the corresponding classical trajectory. This implies that the quantum motion is constrained.”
See!?... now I ask, "By what?"
Who else read the paper?
What did you get?
(Don't be worried by the formulas. We are not analysing the paper to that level.)
jal

Hello jal, et al.

What I got from reading http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0703161v1 is that the total energy within a wavefront shape determines the future energy/wavefront shape as an ongoing process. The trick here is the energy must be of the same frequency and phase.

Hello GoodElf, TRoc, et al.

A quote from here.

Could the repeating coherency be a "Talbot cartpet" within the laser beam?

Hi,

Laserlight said that all is fair, & I know from a new person I will not get your attention but I hope this will change in the future if my information is correct and worth thought.

This will get you in trouble guys if you take this approach and I believe GOOD ELF is a fan.

There is a problem from my view due to the technology and all the mind experiments you make will not solve this problem using pilot waves, etc, I think Confused 2 has the closest explanation going but no one seem to like the collapse wave and quantum theory approach but that is the way it is as strange as it might be.

Yes again there is a problem but you seem to be just using new data to repeat yourself. Just want to help not make anyone mad, heck I am the new kid on the block even if I am a old fart that has been given this question presented to me over and over again by first yr grads.

Talbot had some great experiments that gave wonderful results but the out come never was explained by him. I think THEY said it best but no need to repeat due to the fact you did not pay any mind to her comment.


Please correct me if I am mistaken I will not take it personal.

maybe

Hi maybe,THEY and all,
As was suggested a while back..

It might be a way round the Groundhog day effect.
Best wishes - C2.

Edit .. given that some/most/all of us have to work .. maybe book days for 'our' theory .. Exposition + Q&A .. the next day may not be contiguous but picks up from the end of the last day. ???

Edit2 .. some of us are literally and metaphorically 'poles apart' .. I'd suggest using GMT to define a 'day' .. I assume that comes with a unique date despite the odd things that that must happen when (say) Tuesday gets all round the world and suddenly bumps into Wednesday.. or vice versa

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Sep 5 2007, 09:51 PM

Hi all,


Along with everyone else, let me welcome "maybe" to this thread.
"MB" to lazy typists!



I went back several pages, and did not see a post by "THEY", so I'm confused by this statement by MB,

Although, for this reason, I would say that giving this phenomenon the title of "Talbot Interference" is not justified. He and Lund contributed greatly, but in the end, they only wanted to make cameras.


In some attempt to not "sidetrack" this conversation ( ), I've posted a very related post in another thread, which I would appreciate those that are interested in my method, would read. http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=257263


LL asked me if I can explain this to my grandmother. Of course! As long as she didn't have the disadvantage of the complex method being her "method of choice".


There is no problem whatsoever, in telling a musician to "invert the perfect fifth", and you'll arrive at the "node" of the previous octave. Only if I tried to used "sq rt -1" to explain the relationship between "zero" ( a node), and "1/2" (a harmonic).


There is no problem whatsoever, in an artist understanding that NO amount of "red paint" (intensity) will change the "color" (frequency). They will also understand, from experience, that if we mix red and yellow, to get orange (a node, or 1/2 point), that the orange has an opposite, in "complex space" (the dualistic additive/subtractive theories of color).


As these "coincidences" go, I had an insight when answering Neil's question a few pages ago. I now have a valid explanation of why, through simple experiment, that "white light", passed through green glass (filter), creates a magenta shadow, within the "normal" shadow: caustics and phase nodes.




As I have stated before, if it were not from the demi-god Mr. Newton, it might not have been accepted without question. In his book, "Optiks", these phase reversals are written off as "aberrations", and have been left in the dust, ever since. Goethe noted these clearly, as did Lund, and more recently, Berry, Visser, and T.Roc .


The "missing link" is the "non-linear" perspective of the octave.


Maybe these links will be of more service now, than before:

Exploring the Colors of Dark Light, M Berry
Colored Phase Singularities, M Berry

Jal will be interested to know, that if we "tightly pack spheres" around a sphere, we have to deal with 6 "nodes", which might be rather "spot-like". In total, we will have 12 "cycles" to contend with, cycles being the complete view of node & anti-node. Take any 3 non-adjacent nodes, and you'll automatically "capture" all that is necessary to define the resonant relationships of the nodes, and anti-nodes as well. This may very well apply to "dimension parameters" too.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FWM

regards,

T.Roc


This post has been edited by TRoc on Sep 5 2007, 11:10 PM

Hi All,

Perhaps you have noticed my resounding lack of enthusiasm for Talbot carpets.

1st, let me say, I'm not all that "excited" about "Talbot carpets". IMO, they are
just light interference superpositions that create optical patterns according to
internal wave reflections emanating from a transmission source. They are an
energy phase "timing" generated phenomenon. I fail to see any useful information in the
phenomenon, but that is just me. Perhaps I am missing some subtleties that are
important, but IMO they are not much different than looking at the "bunny" shapes
that can be observed in cloud formations.

Talbot carpets might represent some resonance "shadow" phenomenon, but if
it is due to internal reflections originating from the source, is it relevant, other
than to indicate that indeed yes, interference is taking place? Don't we expect
that to happen? Geese, we can see similar energy "shadow" effects from light
passing thru a faceted crystal. OOOohhhh, see the pretty shapes and colors!

Coherency is phase alignment. Internal reflections in a confined/enclosed
transmission medium merely cause phase delays to part of the energy passing
thru it which establishes periodic superposition interference patterns, due to the
signal delays. I have expressed this phase timing delay conceptualization,
that creates superposition patterns in numerous prior posts, so you will excuse me
if I am not excited by recent "events".

Hmmm, it is groundhog day! What goes around, comes around.

LL

TRoc,

I have never felt if you need to explain in great detail because it can becomes muddled to the person or you lose there attention do to time allow.

Because I am new I cannot put a site on a reply, so just check into "physicsworld article print 133 on the www.

This is why I said,

Thanks, "THEY" now I must run a few extra miles.

maybe

This post has been edited by maybe on Sep 6 2007, 01:37 AM

Hey jal, C2, THEY, TRoc, GE, LL, Montec, MB and all,

jal, thanks for the idea, I will open a new thread in the morning and include some detail on the circles.

LL, thanks for the idea, but I am only talking about geometry at this point. Hopefully tomorrows thread will add some insight.

All, I second THEY's idea to focus on one idea per week and nominate C2 to be thread topic director. That said, I would also like to nominate Talbot and TRoc for the first week. Do I have seconds?

Mahalo

Hi Jal, et al,

The energy is constrained within the volume and limits of the wavefunction, which
is a dynamic energetic process that oscillates/undulates as a consequence of the
complementary energy exchange between the electric and magnetic fields, and space.
"Local" energetic space resonates at the frequency of the oscillating fields.

A "conceptual" mechanism:

Space is displaced/distorted in the presence of fields and "absorbs" the increasing
electrical wave energy, like a capacitor, until the peak wave energy level is
achieved. Space then releases the accumulated/stored electrical energy back into
the modulating wavefunction, in a process similar to an electronic resonant "tank
circuit". This "reversal" reinforces the electrical field phasor expansion in the
opposite direction and with opposite polarity.

The capacitance (accumulator/capacitive reactance) effect of space arises as a
result of an energetic "delta" that exists between different energy levels at relative
points of reference in space. An alternating electric field, dynamically "displaces"
a volume of space, which is surrounded by non-energetic space, that is operating
at some zero point energy reference level.

The magnetic field component of the wavefunction has a 90 degree orthogonal
quadrature relationship to the electric field component, and represents the
lateral volumetric wavefunction energy displacement of space. Volumetric
expansion requires 3 dimensions and time. This could be considered an
electric expansion (Y axis), a magnetic expansion (z axis), and the displacement
current vector "expansion" along the x axis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadrature_phase

Just some musings....
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Sep 6 2007, 03:55 AM

Sighhhh!
This forum is full of "conceptual" mechanisms.
SUSY says the same thing by using super-partners that have not been found.
They have about 1,000 models ready to be compared to the data from CERN. (If we ever get it)
---------
Why Not?
I'll be looking forward to reading your thread.

SECONDED
--------------
TRoc

I'm glad that you are pointing out this example of geometry to the non-believers.
Could you not find an example of chaos .... randomness?
I repeat my question... What is there at the quantum level that creates structures/geometry?
Remember to keep it simple enough for a 12 year old.
--------------
maybe
Welcome!
You may not feel welcome because this forum and thread will make you become a student and reevaluate a lot of what you learnt and taught to students.
On the other hand, I look forward to learning from your inputs.
---------
Let the search/fun continue
jal

Thank you for the suggestion but this is not an option. Only partly because some would sell their daughters into slavery before they would accept me as a thread director. Also it is Tax Return Month .. when fact meets fiction and only one can triumph. Also major changes happening on the work front .. I expect to be very busy for the foreseeable future.

I (again) propose THEY as the one best qualified to organize the thread.

Best wishes - C2.

PS Thanks for the kind thought .. it really is appreciated.