Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

Hi Montec,

Glad to see someone else join in the ongoing discussion.

No one claimed that there were no EM field vectors and no frequency.

What happens when exactly opposite vectors overlap (superpose)? There is a net
cancellation of localized displacement at the point of overlap. Nothing moves, and
no energy is transferred.

It is like putting your index fingertips together and pushing equally from both
sides, nothing is displaced. There is potential energy in the system, but no kinetic
energy is released, because nothing is moving relative to a fixed point in
time or space. It is a form of energy equilibrium.

The boson is a "description' of a form of energy with common topological
characteristics. They are the force carriers, have integer spin, and can occupy
the same quantum state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boson

The frequency is merely the period of wave cycle timing. Frequency determines
the kinetic energy component of the wave per unit area.

Two oppositely phased waves that perfectly overlap, occupy the same space at the
same time and their kinetic energy components are "neutralized". There is no net
energy component, and no displacement takes place at the physical point of
instantaneous vector overlap, just like with your fingers.

The energy component is the momentum of the wave applied across a unit
cross-sectional area. Energy cannot be measured or sensed until it physically
displaces matter, so is it really a boson or is it wave energy enroute?
Perhaps the boson state is only manifest at the point of action when it
it is integrated with matter, which provides it's relative/characteristic state?

What is the background for the interference images? Isn't that a viewing screen?

Agreed, we would see beams of constructively phased light projected onto the
matter of the vapor screen. I have stated this in earlier posts. Just like a projector
image. There will be "dead" projection zones (bands), where there is wave
phase equilibrium, and there will be bright bands where constructive interference
is mixing across the atoms of the vapor (matter).

Wave intensity does not manifest itself until it is physically mixed at the fixed
point of superposition.

Without matter to act as a reaction mixing zone, the photon waves would pass right
thru each other. Remember, unlimited bosons can occupy the same vacuum
space, however, once you have a point of physical mixing the boson's will sum
at that resonant location, if the wave frequencies can resonantly stimulate the
atomic dipole by displacing the electron from its ground state.

Comments? Discussion? Anyone? Bueller, Bueller? (Ferris Bueller's Day Off)

EDIT: Good Elf, sorry to hear that you haven't been well. I noticed you were not
posting much. Hope all is better now!
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jul 6 2007, 06:21 AM

Hi GE,

I'm not sure where this line of discussion is coming from, but I am speaking from
first hand experience in the semi industry where sintered graphite black
body "wafer susceptors" are radiantly heated to very high temperatures via high intensity halogen bulbs.

The bulbs radiate visible, IR, and UV frequencies that heat the graphite, which
absorbes the energy and generates very highly uniform, concentrated IR heat to
the silicon wafers for epitaxial deposition film growth. The technique has been
around for many, many years and is well known and characterized.

So, we are taking UV and a full spectrum of visible and IR light, and heating
a graphite mass (excellent black body characteristics) to 1200 degrees C, which
in turn radiates IR wavelengths to heat the silicon and react the silane and
dopant gases, to grow a perfectly oriented epitaxial silcon flat crystal on the
surface of silicon wafers.

With enough radiant intensity applied to the graphite (carbon) black body we can
get it to glow red hot, to yellow, to white, to blue-white hot, up to the point of
melting and eventual vaporization. The point being that, there are quantum
energy levels of absorption and emission for black bodies. They will respond to
energy by re-emitting the absorbed photons at a range of IR and visible
frequencies depending upon the energy level that they are excited to.
Have you ever seen an electrically energized carbon rod arc?

I agree that all atoms are quantum harmonic oscillators, but they will emit a
specific frequency spectral pattern. They will radiate energy according the energy
intensity level to which they are excited, as is demonstrated by the range of color
intensities observed when heated. They will continue to radiate heat, once the
external energy source is removed, until they dissipate all absorbed energy back
to the environment, and reach the background ambient temperature.

Would you care to respond or reword your "conjecture"?

Comments?
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jul 6 2007, 07:32 AM

Hi GE,

More comments about your very long, multitopical post.

Hmmm, can you explain perfect reflection at the quantum level? Does that occur
near the apex of the exited electron state, where the atomic dipole can no longer
absorb any more external energy without ionizing? If so, this seems to conflict
with models that suggest that reflection is an absorption and re-emission process
that "reflects" the stimulated photons, that couple to space in a general direction
away from the bulk mass.

There are no perfect absorbers, conservation of energy says that energy into
a system can only take the form of either kinetic or potential energy, something
physical must be displaced from the ground state. The ambient ground state, and
the field energy, must change to accomodate the applied energy.

Once the ground state is violated, the quantum system is out of equilibrium, and
will dissipate that energy in some form over some period of time.

Comments?

LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jul 6 2007, 07:28 AM

Hi Laserlight, Montec, Good Elf, Wulf et al,

The value of the 'math' lies in the way it predicts the experimental result over a wide range. Getting the right answer is a fair indication that the assumptions we made are correct. Within the range where the error is negligible we can say (with reasonable safety) that all other effects are 'negligible'.

We could (of course) claim that the plasmons, polaritrons, Klingons and vitamin D deficiency are major effects which somehow cancel out so giving the illusion that the effect is a wave-type effect when in fact it is not. To make such a cancellation plausible we would need extra maths to show (not only) the relationship between (say) polaritrons and Klingons but also that they could cancel out over the range where their total effect is observed to be negligible.
If we (temporarily) assume that the result is not caused by a wave type effect we should be able to model it using (for example) mirrors and white and grey and black surfaces (or anything else you like). Having created our new model we would need to show that it has the same mathematical form as the wave assumption and that it could plausibly apply over a similar range as the wave-type maths - if the model doesn't give the right answer then we chuck out the model as 'useless' - we might even be able to do this after less than (say) 5,000 posts about it.

The NASA inspired version of the DSE involves cutting slits in the shiny side of a mirror. This clearly does involve reflection from the sides of the slit and the creation of a 'cavity' as a result of the shiny mirror and the partially reflecting face of the glass. We could say this is (by definition) the 'DSE' and we should then look at the consequences of these extra effects .. which are not negligible by Good Elf's account. My own preference would be to ignore the NASA crap experiment and concentrate on the effects of the slit, space and whatever.


Best wishes - C2.

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Jul 6 2007, 09:10 AM

Elecrons in electron microscopes display wavelight behavior, destructive interference, constructive interference etc. The electrons are matter waves.

Hi Neil,

I would not argue with that definition but matter waves are shared by all kinds of fermions and collections of fermions and in some respects by bosons too which can include even numbers of fermions that are de-facto bosons like in a BEC. In fact it is actually a space filling property of matter waves that leads to spatial standing waves. If you think about it a fermion particle has "extent" as well as "frequency". The "extent" is a spatial frequency that defines a particle in some way as distinct from the "pure" wave.

Cheers

Hi C2,

The beauty of mathematics is that you can manipulate it to represent equalities,
which is all well and good, because it allows for predictability of a model within
some solution set of possibilities.

However, it says nothing about the physics or the mechanisms involved that
caused the event.

I can render a proof that is absolutely correct, but really doesn't accurately
define a definite solution, but the math works.

x+1 = ∞

So, yeah the math works but it doesn't provide details as to WHY or HOW the
physics occurs.

We can see and predict the result of the DSE, but if you can't explain how or why it
works, then we haven't really learned anything tangible about nature.

You, obviously, are the type who is quite satisfied by just turning the key to the
auto and driving it without knowing what is "under the hood" and without a clue as
to how or why it works. Yeah, it meets your basic transportation needs, until
something simple fails and you are stranded 200km from home, because a fuse
blew.

Why bother studying physics and natural interactions, if all we need are
mathematical solutions that yield predictabilities, but no real knowledge?
What is first principle, the physics or the math?

You still haven't satisfactorily answered the question of why or how the slit
width controls the wave plane wave to spherical wave dispersion mechanism at the
physical level.

Comments?
LL

HI GE,

Just some different perspective.

The terms "space filling property" and "extent" implies a volumetric response, or
spatial characteristic, which is quantifiable in 3 physical dimensions and time, as
energy density per unit volume.

"Spatial standing waves" implies a fixed, average, volumetric energy density that
represents an elevated value above the baseline energy background of spacetime.
If this premise is correct it infers a change of refractive index of the space
being energetically "filled". Also, if we note that all atomic matter displays inate
characteristics of spherical "geometry", or topology, then these "standing waves"
must uniformly radiate outward from a spherical from a focal point, as they
couple to space.

Taking this line of reasoning further, if radiating energy density follows the rules
of the ISL, then energy density that couples to proximity space, falls off inversely
with the square of the distance from the source.

So by deduction, the refractive index of space around an object that is resonantly
radiating energy, must also follow the rules of the ISL. As the energy density
of proximity space, around matter, decreases with increasing distance, the
refractive index of that space also decreases, which makes energy density and
refractive index directly proportional.

This implies that matter standing waves, are resonant radiating energy oscillations
that are being coupled to space, and that oscillate in phase with the atomic resonance.
It also suggests that the energy amplitude of these standing waves
dampens with increasing distance from the source.

In effect, we have a dampened spherical energy field coupling from a resonant
atomic source to surrounding space, which distorts the electrical and optical
characteristics of that space. If this is true for a single atom, consider the
consequences on spacetime, that would be developed by massive objects.

Just some musings...I could develop this line of reasoning much further.

LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jul 6 2007, 04:58 PM

From the diagram here http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...ungeo.html#c1we see that there will be a minimum at any point where a wave from the 'top' of the slit is out of phase with a wave from the 'bottom' of the slit. This result tells us that there is some sort of wave expanding from the slit and it is made up of at least one cycle. The result for the DSE (very similar maths) tells us the 'wave' spreads from the slits and includes several (or more) cycles. The central maximum isn't a 'bell shape' (Gaussian) .. it is the superposition of sinusoidal waves expanding from the slits. I agree the maths doesn't tell us what these waves are made of or why they happen .. only that they exist and that would probably be the thing to concentrate on.

To avoid more 'math' it would probably be best to look at a ripple tank ( http://www.falstad.com/ripple/ )
There is another 2D wave thing here ( http://www.falstad.com/wave2d/ ) which gives the result that seems to be the problem .. a pattern for no obvious reason .. unless you've looked at the ripple tank and/or understood the significance of the maths and superposition. <- Edit .. the thing is showing the amplitude (or possibly intensity) of the wave instead of the wave itself.
And a 3D thing here ( http://www.falstad.com/wavebox/ ) which I don't think adds anything except cuteness/

Best wishes -C2.

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Jul 6 2007, 07:44 PM

Hi C2,

Well, despite my best efforts to get you to commit to describing how and why
diffraction works at the physical level of the slits, which alters the wave dynamics,
you have chickened out and taken the safe approach by referencing applets.

You might want to think about this statement. The intensity of the central
maximum does follow a Gaussian distribution. It is the highest intensity point
for the DSE result. There is more wave energy concentrated in the central
band than at other band distributions. It represents a predictability of 98%+.

Actually, I am glad that you revisted these applets. Applet #3 was intriquing
when looking at dipole point sources that have a wide gap spacing between them.

When the gap is narrow, the dipole radiates opposite polarity wavefronts that
are hemispherical, but when the dipoles are widely spaced they generate
resonant interference patterns between them, and also along any point of wave
overlap, as the waves radiate outward from the sources. I am still thinking about
the implications of this observation.

I wonder where the math would be without the physics to drive it? Conversely,
I wonder where the physics would be without the math to equate it?

LL

Hi Laserlight, Wulf, Why Not?, Montec, yquantum, Confused2, TRoc, janrinze, "THEY", Jal, Zephir, Neil Farbstein, , Mate et al,

No... you have taken this the wrong way. True matter waves do not radiate away into space since they are spatial standing waves. Recall Feynman and Wheeler's Advanced and Retarded potentials approaching from different directions than ordinary space. Sources radiate electromagnetic waves only intermittently, most of their life they are non-emitters, and the material substance of the source must stay in place. In my interpretation of this process the matter itself .... the solid stuff... is the matter waves. Of course you must strip the "matter" of all those other properties we have come to recognize such as color, luster, charge, hardness, temperature etc which are features of Quantum Electrodynamics and what is left is something aside from those photonic interactions.... A presence and spatial distribution. I am not sure about "solidity" in an abstract sense since we attribute that to virtual photons when we try and crush something. Since matter waves are "like" electromagnetic waves and are closely aligned to electromagnetic waves I expect that there are some short range forces there that have been formerly "lumped in with other kinds of electromagnetism".

The other obvious reason why this wave does not "radiate away" is simple ... since the physical presence is due to this matter wave and is not simply something a particle "exudes" then if it radiated away the matter would "dissipate" with time. In fact the "matter" is in a "stationary state", a quantum state and it is indirectly linked with all other matter in the Universe holographically. In that sense the matter is not independent of other matter and we can prove this by trying to accelerate it, what we sense is a kind of Lenz's Law of back action due to the influence of the mass... which is something to do with the "matter waves". Interference effects due to its displacement from an inertial frame, this is "force" resulting in acceleration. A holographic expression of what is filling space and this influences everything along with the Quantum Electrodynamics. Together they make up a complete description of matter (as we see it) both as physical and chemical properties described by the way the matter interacts with light and as "extended objects" occupying space which define the cavity structures that describe the occupied empty space and also the way in which space is "linked" to other space... the connection itself. This is an old idea expressed by Ernst Mach as Mach's Principle...
Wikipedia: Mach's Principle
Still... a very useful concept... Matter Waves will be the means of linking.

There are some details I have left out but I am sure that they do not alter the overall picture. You need both to gain an idea of the total entity. We have relegated the matter wave properties to a topic that is not worth knowing and it is studied "indirectly" when it becomes of commercial significance such as Bragg's Law and other physical properties of space such as space quantization and the spin of an electron or any other fermion particle. Unfortunately we "identify" the particle with what is seen... a bit unfortunate really that is simply it's emission and absorption properties of photons actually..

To give you all a very enlightened and entertaining view of electron spin... which is the same as other kinds of 1/2 interger spin common amongst all fermions... please download and view this quicktime movie. You will find it very interesting and after you have all seen it I may mention a couple of things about this. I am a little disappointed in the way the trick is shown as a Filipino drinking trick with a glass of alcohol rather than the ancient version done by Temple Dancers with candles by the Hindu Sect in Bali known commonly as the Balinese Candle Dance.
Air on the Dirac Strings, 1993 Size of file is around 40 MB but well worth it.

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jul 7 2007, 08:26 AM

Hi LL,

Did you see the news item about the Japanese omigoshitsa dog? Turns out they couldn't make them fast enough to keep up with demand so they started sending out lambs instead. The point here is that we need to know is whether or not this is relevent and if it is then to whom.
This is a Gaussian pattern I(theta) = I0 e ^(-(x-b)^2/2c^2)) [ see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_function .. it is a definition.]
And this is a diffraction pattern I(theta) = I0(sinc(pi a sin (theta)/lambda))^2 [ see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaussian_function for derivation. ]
Superficially the only difference is that the one goes "wuff" and the other one goes "baaa" and if this doesn't matter to you then it certainly doesn't matter to me. However:- if you have recently purchased a dog I would advise you to ask a vet whether it will be needing the normal type of dog food or something a little bit different.
Best wishes - C2.

Good Elf, C2, Laserlight, Wulf, Why Not?, TRoc, janrinze, "THEY", Jal, Zephir, Neil Farbstein, , Mate et al

Hope this will give some better insight in what Good Elf is expressing.

http://www.glafreniere.com/matter.htm

Still working but then what is new for all of us.

ciao_
yquantum

It's amazing, how the proclamative proponent of mainstream science and LHC experiments can link such naive crackpottery site..(Matter is purely made out of electrons)...
This link just demonstrates, Good Elf is babbling all the time, mixing his private ideas with the mainstream ones without any understanding of the subject.

This post has been edited by Zephir on Jul 7 2007, 11:34 AM

LL http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?i...0&in_page_id=34