Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

Hi yquantum,

You are welcome to my humble abode anytime yquantum. About the conference you mentioned... How could you forget that one? I am a BIG fan of Leonard Susskind... Remember how you placed that long note by him here in the Forum when I was not even considering higher dimensions at the time. It "woke me up" big time. It was that inspiring comment that got me all fired up about extra dimensions. I think before that statement I was totally unable to believe in String Theory at all. I have Leonard (and of course you) to thank for my driving this Forum crazy about "higher dimensions". David Bohm is OK but I would find it difficult to accept anything at all without Leonard's comments and your own leadership when you had the time previously.

I see where the LHC has a 12 month "recess". Seems that while they do the "plumbing" you could not be blamed for having a break eh?? It is time for you to visit your family again.

Cheers

PS: Maybe I will put that comment in a post here again just to remind us all about what String Theory is all about from the man himself, the man who actually "invented" String Theory. I remember him saying somewhere (not in that particular discussion) "If anything are strings then everything are strings..." That got me really thinking how "everything" might be strings. Today I can't think of anything without "strings" of some kind. Can you recall what it was LS was discussing at the conference? Is there a link to his notes or the paper he presented? You have me very "interested".

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jun 26 2007, 06:16 AM

Hello Confused2, GoodElf,et al.

Thankyou for your patients. I am beginning to see the light. in regards to the BBO crystal. The incident angle of the 351nm light to the BBO crystal determines the output frequencies of the o and e light cones. At some angle "x" the energy of the e and o photons are equal and have the same frequency (E=hf). At angles above or below "x" the energies of the e and o photons are not equal and have different frequencies. This is the "trick" that is not mentioned here.

Hi yquantum,

This is the reference that I really thought was very inspiring and that got me fired up about String Theory...

Yquantum on Leonard Susskind speaking about String Theory

Of great "final" note was Leonard's comments on T-Duality and from that one proven connection which is one of the only known aspects at that time it was becoming clear that there was a R <--> 1/R relationship... The pennies began to drop... A String Theory of some kind was indeed "more than plausible".

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jun 26 2007, 03:38 PM

Hi Montec, yquantum, Confused2, Laserlight, TRoc, janrinze, "THEY", Jal, Zephir, Neil Farbstein, Why Not?, Mate et al,

I think you are getting it now...I thought that this concept smacked of a "magic trick" and sleight of hand like the interlocking rings. Like the quote from the movie "The Prestige"... "Are you watching closely?"... That was a great movie and the appearance of Nicola Tesla in it was also an inventive twist.... not true... but in some way plausible. This leads me to "Dirac's Party Trick" which is no magic trick at all and was one of those things you can illustrate to anyone that is so strange about out Universe that it is "frightening" to a Physicist. You must turn around twice to return to the same place.... A very "Alice in Wonderland" sort of thing...
See...
The Curious Rotational Memory of the Electron
This is in two parts at this blogsite...
... and ...

These are "Secrets of the Universe" and all "acolytes" need to pay attention... Are you watching closely?

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=157292

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jun 26 2007, 05:03 PM

Hi Good Elf, (yquantum) et al,

A humdinger of a post ( from yquantum ) here. If I hadn't already tweaked yquantum's feedback I would have done so now (wow!).

Good Elf seems to be leaving us little choice but to look at this R <-> 1/R thing so I'll give it a go ..

My first shot at this .. please say what you think is wrong.. could be everything..

There are six 'distance' dimensions (3 compacted) and the three we normally see.

Let's try flipping them ...
As we go 'in' we see all the compacted sheep and chickens flying out past us as they 'decompact'. Possibly the ingoing and outcoming meet at a surface .. a two dimensional surface? Regardless .. we end up wandering about on the surface of 'something'.... a sphere or a hypersphere perhaps?

My guess is that the distance between any two points on the surface of a hypershere will have a certain periodicity .. could this be the de Broglie thing?

Therapy/comments (eg. 'drop the hypersphere') would be most welcome.

Best wishes -C2.

Hi All,

Ok, so we have 6 IR rings projecting from the BBO crystal. Each pair of colored
rings represents a specific frequency, according to the bandpass filter used to
remove all other IR frequencies.

Assuming that each colored ring pair that represents a specific frequency is made
up of individual photons that are E and O polarized:

1. Why do the individual photons assemble as discrete E and O polarized rings?
Why the ring shape for each discrete bandpass frequency?

2. What is the total bandwidth of IR frequencies being generated by the BBO
crystal? It is apparent that there is a pretty wide bandpass of secondary IR
frequencies being generated.

3. If the fundamental UV frequency hitting the BBO lattice is 351nM, how is it
down converting all of the other IR frequencies across some frequency bandpass
operational range of the IR spectrum? That would infer that multiple harmonics
are being generated.

It apparently isn't really frequency down conversion, but is "energy" level
down conversion at the atomic level. This is saying that the coherent UV photons
from the laser are being absorbed by atomic dipoles at some inner ring energy
level within the BBO atomic structure. Those responsive dipoles are resonating at
8.5412 3 x 10^14 hz, and that resonant frequency is coupling energy to other
nearby BBO atoms which is stimulating the emission of IR frequencies across the
IR bandpass spectrum. So the BBO crystal is experiencing stimulated radiation
emission from the energy of the incident UV photons.

If this is indeed the secondary emission mechanism, then it should be possible to
convert from IR to UV frequencies by the reverse process of upconversion using
the resonance characteristics of the BBO crystal lattice.

Any details, insight, or other explanations about this process would be appreciated.
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jun 26 2007, 08:13 PM

Hi Laserlight,

http://www.quantenkryptographie.at/ECOCPoppe_2005.pdf

Best wishes - C2.

Edit .. because the crystal is non-linear there is a continuous spectrum .. any agreement to the contrary is solely for the purposes of expediency.

Edit again..

Yep.. google BBO upconversion .. the most promising are pay and display.


This post has been edited by Confused2 on Jun 26 2007, 09:53 PM

Hi!
yquantum Posted: May 20 2005, 02:57 PM
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...=15&#entry14539

OLD NEWS ….

FOR THE LATEST GO TO

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...05&#entry228513

Hi C2,

It still doesn't explain why the individual photons arrange themselves into cones
and display a single frequency circular pattern.

It almost seems that the secondary emitted IR photons are radiating in an
expanding conical, frequency specific, annular, resonant cross-section, thru the
bulk of the crystal, from a central atomic resonance point. From that centralized
focal point they appear to be following a critical dispersion angle propagating along
other energetic lower order resonances, like a smoke ring that expands as it
moves forward thru the air.

IMO, this implies that there are two IR energy (and frequency) "gradients" across
each conical cross-section. I'm still trying to comprehend why the size of each
colored ring alternates its concentric location, according to frequency
and phase, and its energy content. There appears to be some population
inversion process going on inside the crystal lattice, according to frequency and
polarization.

LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jun 27 2007, 12:10 AM

Hi Montec, yquantum, Confused2, Laserlight, TRoc, janrinze, "THEY", Jal, Zephir, Neil Farbstein, Why Not?, Mate et al,

You are right but of course it is with a very low efficiency as well. Parametric upconversion is possible.

Cheers

PS:

They don't... all "point source" radiation arranges itself into "cones" due to ISL spreading... The Interference Filter only passes those particular photons that specifically have the right angle of incidence to the filter, this is monochromatic light and there will be a single angle of incidence which is for each nominated Interference Filter and that one frequency of 702.2 nm that will pass the light... this happens to be almost a circle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interference_filter
Have a look at the animation.

The filter will also pass X2, X3, X4 order photons as well but the "circles" will probably be too feint because of the much larger radii and beyond the emulsion size.

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jun 27 2007, 12:49 AM

Hi GE,

The bandpass and angle of incidence of the IR bandpass filter still doesn't explain
the formation of the circles. The AOI just allows for slight frequency tuning across
a small frequency bandwidth from the center frequency.

ISL "spreading" is spherical. I can imagine an expanding cone centered around the
centerpoint axis of the UV laser, where multiple order harmonics are generated
internal to the crystal as the laser beam diverges due to resonances that cause
beamwidth "widening".

Since the bandpass patterns are concentric circles, that align according to their
frequency order and phase characteristics, it indicates that there is an expanding
energy gradient thru the crystal lattice. The energy gradient would create a
frequency spectrum caused by atomic resonances radiating outward from a
centerline axis according to the dispersing energy levels internal to the crystal.
This could explain the observed frequency circles along a circular plane or cone.

Comments? Other ideas?
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jun 27 2007, 04:04 AM

Hi laserlight,

I didn't design this experiment but the Interference Filters used to take the picture in question ARE only a small difference in wavelength from the wavelength of the monochoromatic source (that iswhen the 351.1 photons are entirely removed). The IF's are marked for normal incidence and they pass all frequencies around that frequency with a suitable angle.

Any small segment of a sphere is potentially a cone (if it has a circular section on the sphere's surface). You are obviously "drowning" in information and not seeing the obvious. I never said what shape the base of the cone was other than it was an intersection of the cone with the film... a slightly slanted cone (one for each of the rays) There are no multiple order harmonics generated... The multiple order harmonics are simply there due to the fact it is a wavepacket and it is a sinewave truncated in time. They are just the internal components of "indivisible" single photons. In the end we are speaking about single photons since these are what are 702.2 nm photons are. The photons are not expanding along the center of the axis... that is the whole point of cutting the crystal so that we have a diverging beam with the e and the o ray diverging in different directions. The cones are tilted away from each other and they are different speeds while inside the crystal. Please just accept that we can 'cut" BBO crystals like we can cut diamonds... only for better uses than just sticking on a persons finger to look at. "Resonances" do not cause beamwidth widening... just accept we are dealing with a pinhole with the BBO crystal in front of it. A single pinhole produces no resonances it can produce an almost perfectly formed image of the other side of the pinhole... it is a "camera obscura" producing a well formed image on a screen (camera back) focussed all the way to infinity of the original LASER source. Light from the 351.1 nm laser passes through the pinhole then through the BBO crystal (some photons split) and then while it is still inside the crystal each split photon travels off along two different crystallographic axes at different velocities in the crystal cut specially to form a symmetric "vee" pattern on the camera side of the pinhole and BBO crystal. If you put a card there you would see the separate images of the single source split in two... an e ray image and an o ray image. It is just when the light emerges from the crystal the different internal velocities lead to different external "bent stick in the water" patterns due to the Refractive Index along each each ray. The BBO "cut" has been made specially to angle the rays and correcting for the velocities of the rays to emerge symmetrically... Lets just say the e and the o rays were 45 degrees away from the perpendicular on either side of the normal to the photographic emulsion plane (I don't know that... just a blind guess to illustrate the point). I can't be too specific since we have no particular information about this technical point but given a big book of Chemical and Physical Properties of beta Barium Borate crystals it is not "rocket science" to do the calculations.

This leads to birefringence you see in the image of calcite I have been linking to with the split entangled photons. all we are interested in is the two bright source images of the pinhole... the E and the O ray. There is birefringence with the 351.1 nm photons too but we filter them all out... we are only interested in exposing the plate with 702.2 nm photons which we know already are entangled.

As an extra bit of information I hope will not confuse... these 702.2 nm photons are "coherent" with the original source 351.1 nm originating photons... but these are destroyed now... split into these longer wavelength photons.

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jun 27 2007, 05:04 AM

Hi GE,

Yeah, I understand the crystal cut angle dynamics and the filter hardware involved.
I worked for a company that manufactured deposition equipment for
making "tuned" spectral filters. We customized the equipment process to
meet customer filter specifications. I don't have intimate knowledge of crystal
lattice symmetry, or how it reacts with light though.

It's not about information overload...it is about understanding the details!

You are missing some obvious points to the experiment. The IR output is centered
on 702.2nM. The BBO crystal is generating other IR frequencies that
are observed above and below that center frequency. There is an IR range of
frequencies.... a bandpass, which is cut off at upper and lower limits in the
experiment at 681 and 725nM by tuned filters. If there was only 1 downconverted
frequency present at 702.2nM we would not detect the other frequency bands with
the other filters, and we would only see 1 set of green circles. If there were
no other IR frequencies present we wouldn't see the 681 and 725nM rings.

Since the frequency circles are concentric on any one orientation plane, it is telling
us that there is a gradient range of IR frequencies being generated by the BBO
crystal that radiate outward from the centerline.

Does anyone else agree or disagree on this point?

LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jun 27 2007, 06:27 AM

Laserlight, if there is a refraction and the light forms a circle that is part of a vacuum wouldnt the speed of light change and the magnetic field as well. Could that be the cause ?

Hello Laserlight, Good Elf, Confused2, et al.

Here is a good paper that explains the type-II BBO down conversion output.

Enjoy