Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

Hi C2,

I'm hoping that you will author your "interpretations" for peer scrutiny also, starting
with section 1.

IMO, the DSE has been "solved" but there is disagreement in cohesively
explaining/detailing the sequence of events and interpreting the results. I blame
this on the "blind men describing an elephant" syndrome.

Re: cavity.....
A cavity is a self contained interactive energy system. It is a geometrically shaped
volume that confines, shapes, and directs the flow of various forms of energy
within its interior boundaries. Each "unique" externally applied form of energy that
interacts within a specific cavity geometry will respond similarly to the shape and
surface properties of the matter which forms the geometry, according to the scale
involved. A cavity is where and how a fixed geometrical energy system couples to
a dynamic energy system.....

Some general properties of cavities:
The confinement of different forms of energy, within the boundaries of a cavity,
affects the way that each unique externally applied energy system is propagated,
reflected, absorbed, diffracted, shaped, and distributed as the two separate energy
systems interact.
--------

TRoc, where are you? Have you given up?

Any other interpretations or opinions welcomed.
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jan 27 2007, 05:54 PM

fivedoughnut
Read it all from start to finish.
I'll guarantee that you will get a better understanding.
The man is a leader in his field.
Lensless x-ray microscope focuses on biological samples (Jan 26)
http://physicsweb.org/article/news/11/1/23
A "lensless" x-ray microscope that can take pictures of biological
samples in their natural environment has been developed in the UK.
Physicists used several overlapping diffraction patterns to create a
wide field of view of samples, which they claim provides virtually
instantaneous images with a resolution limited only by the x-rays'
wavelength. The principle could also be implemented in a new type of
large-scale 3D imaging akin to medical CT scans (Phys. Rev. Lett. 98
034801).
jal

Jal,

I really don't want to "rehash" all of the information that has been covered and
posted again on a new thread. We are all weary from arguing about this and it
is time to formalize the final "summary" by applying what we know "works" to
provide a simple set of sequential solutions.

Jal,

On your recommendation, ok! .... read that corkscrew bit, thought it naff and gave up.

This post has been edited by fivedoughnut on Jan 27 2007, 05:48 PM

Laserlight!
No rehashing just an agreed summary.
More than one "textbook" explanation needs to be presented as demonstrated by fivedoughnut.
jal

RabbitsjalrabbitsjalrabbitsjalrabbitsJALRABBITS, not exactly unmemorable is it? So why...?

Hi Laserlight,jal, Good Elf,jal, Montec,jal, "THEY",jal, Aerohead,jal, TRoc,jal, Fivedoughnut,jal, yquantum,jal, Neil,jal et jal,
Cavities .. yes ..
"A cavity is a self contained interactive energy system. It is a geometrically shaped
volume that confines, shapes, and directs the flow of various forms of energy
within its interior boundaries."

Please could you give a bit of a clue about the geometry of the cavity you are referring to?

Fair enough. I offer my 'least good' attempt (I'll save the interference one for another day.. it's too complicated for now)
My ref: C2 Take 1. (First iteration)
1/An atom (a 'something') changes state.
2/Somewhere else another 'something' changes state' .. they have somehow become coupled (entangled?) by the path between them.
3/If you looked down the whole DSE from the source you would find that only certain parts of the (final) screen are visible .. the minima would be totally invisible and the maximum points would appear greatly enlarged .. hence the probability of coupling to a 'maximum' is great and the probability of coupling to a minimum is zero.
4/At the first slit it is conceptually easier to consider a pinhole.. so that's what I'll do. Assuming the source is 'omnidirectional' .. the probability of coupling to something will fall off with the inverse square of the distance from the source. Looking through the pinhole .. the visible world spreads out enormously (diffraction seen from the other side) .. so the 'probability of coupling' to the area of the pinhole is now spread out into the new world beyond, bearing in mind that the total probability of coupling can never exceed that due to the area of the pinhole.
5/Looking from the source end, again, (assuming our first diffraction slit properly set up) then we should be able to see two slits.. of roughly equal size (if they're fair and square in the middle of the diffraction zone).
6/Two slits have twice the area of one slit (roughly) .. so the probability of coupling (to a point on an imaginary sphere) in the zone after the first slit (zone 1) is reduced in proportion to this area. We now have a probability of coupling to the real screen (or detector in that position) via (apparently) two paths. Way back at the source end I suggested the source could only 'see' certain parts of the final 'screen' zone, some would be (apparently) magnified and some invisible, this distorted 'screen' becomes the zone over which the probability of coupling is distributed. The difference in path lengths is irrelevant .. it was only the probability of coupling that ever mattered.
7/My own thoughts:- the proposed 'distortion' of the final screen is clearly wavelength dependent .. I have done a 'switch' from interference to some other property that is wavelength dependent. AND I have offered no model or explanation of wavelength (because I haven't got one). Seen from the source the wavefunction-psi looks entirely uniform .. seen from the screen it looks like the observed effect. Since no probabilities have been messed with .. the numbers should work out right.
8/ Conspicuously .. wavelength needs to be understood. Since everybody else has taken it for granted I don't feel too bad about it .. it is a weak point for all of us.
9/ Path dependent entanglement (or something similar) ??????
10/ All points made are a mish-mash of ideas - from Good Elf, Laserlight, Lisa and others.
11/Cue lights.. music .. etc.
Best wishes,
-C2.

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Jan 27 2007, 10:09 PM

............................................"Genesis of the DSE"
......................................................... or
.......................................(Light at the End of the Tunnel)

Once upon a time there was a photon, and that photon begat other photons, which
begat even more photons until....the photon's became a wave... and the wave was
good! The wave propagated and divided. It did not like being divided and tried
to reassemble, but it was confused and interfered with itself, and Science said
"this is not good" and tried to explain why the wave was so unruly. The wave
said, "I don't care about science, I am a wave, and I will do what I want, when
I want", and students everywhere smiled and saw that it was good. But, science
said "Wave, you are not conforming to our laws and formulas and we are
confused by your obstinance that you can do what you want. We can't have that,
you will conform!" The wave said, "I will not conform", and amateur physicists
everywhere moaned and argued and tried to defend the wave, and the wave
continued to interfere with itself, smiled in its indifference, and did what it wanted,
and the wave was happy.

The end.


All kidding aside, I will author the pre-slit cavity mechanism later.

LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jan 27 2007, 10:44 PM

Hi Laserlight, Confused2, Montec, "THEY", Aerohead, TRoc, Fivedoughnut, Yquantum, Neil et al,

I don't want to seem patronizing (I really do not ... please!) but defining cavities seems a little rudimentary at this stage? In the context of this discussion a cavity is a region of confinement that light can be subjected to that limits its propagation. A little cross verification by you guys will confirm that light can be confined to a "cavity", just widen your vision as to what "material" a cavity can be composed of. There are even vortex light traps... Regions in space where light is confined to circulate and not progress in a linear forward direction. These are not particles but solitons... note "I believe that" but go look for yourself.

A block of glass is a cavity since it can be a region of confinement for photons because total internal reflection can occur around its "walls" and for another reason... the speed of light is "locally" different to the observing frame. Another cavity is the chamber in which light amplification by stimulated emission is proceeding ... A laser could not work without a confining cavity. Neither could interference filter... these too are cavities. Any "box" in which any standing waves are appearing is also a cavity.

I have not tried to limit this discussion but every girl knows about super brightening with a well cut diamond, light is confined to a very small regions and forsakes other paths. The phenomenon is not related to the ones we have been discussing but there are processes these two things have in common. In physics we identify process and separate it from the specific and apply it to the general using scientific theories. There are also such things as whispering gallery modes of propagation inside cavities ... I am normally referring to light here but it also happens with sound from where it was first named.

What we are discussing is not Physics 101 it is an area which is hotly disputed and is on the edge of the envelope of understanding. If we have to dumb it down too much then you will not be able to understand anything at all because "dumbed down" explanations do not convey the same informational content as the straight theory which is there in place for a very good reason. If I use dumbed down ways to describe edge of the envelope ideas it automatically produces paradoxes since the dumbed down explanation is not a valid one. You have to do your own work here I will make an off the cuff statement which I assume you understand and suddenly I spend a week discussing something that should be accepted... not because I said it... but because if you did not know it you have the opportunity to fully research it and confirm it for yourself.

The scientific method is when you propose a theory which can have experimental consequences and then you ask nature, as it were, to verify your "proposal" through experiment and interpretation of results. The interpretation is crucial in the understanding. Nature is very cruel if you do not ask the right question. If anything the Greek Myths should have taught us, they have spoken of this many times... "Whom the Gods wish to destroy... they first send mad". Many a tragedy revolved around "the best possible intentions". They happen in the papers everyday and they have occurred down through history by some of the greatest minds and then having even lesser minds reinterpret them. If you ask an ambiguous question you will always get an ambiguous answer. Ambiguous questions always lead to folly and to confusion (... and sometimes not just a little anger as well). Most of Human History (which is basically summed up as a succession of wars) and its folly is due to statements that have not been tested and asking questions that do not correctly define the problem. They were the result of "very poor social interactions". Science is the only interaction which has substantially made any progress in thousands of years whereas our social and personal skills have remained "in a ditch". The only reason science works and the other disciplines do not is it can check itself against nature. When science stops doing that it becomes total folly of a very dangerous sort.

The internet is a wonderful resource to use or abuse. It is full of great Truths and it is also full of great Lies and there are no markers against this information (as there is against our names on this page ) warning any of us as to the quality of the source. A good source does not dictate what you should learn it leads you to seek it out yourselves. I have had a number of "unfortunate" experiences on these pages where people misinterpret my intent. It is always due to "ambiguity" and to a lack of specification on my part. Believe me, the devil is in the detail. Always I have been asked to be more specific and at the same time do it in shorter form... These are competing objectives and they cannot both be fulfilled at the same time. That is why I cannot be as general as people would like, nor as specific. But you guys are also prone to these problems when you ask stupid questions that you have not really thought out and I have to change in some way to make sense. If you want a book of definitions then the Internet is a great resource. The only real caution I would apply is understand the concepts your thought processes are built on. Science give a way to understand but nobody can force you to use it... otherwise I can see more Greek Tragedys coming up.

The other thing I recommend is learn it once and use it many times not learn it many times and use it once.

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jan 28 2007, 12:52 AM

Hello All,

The following explanation is provided with the understanding that light travels as an
expanding propagating wave front from a source of origin. This discussion is not
describing the actions representative of a coherent focused laser beam.

wave front:
Physics a surface, at right angles to a propagated disturbance, that passes at any given moment through those parts of the wave motion that are in the same phase and are moving in the same direction


The intent of this discussion is to describe what happens to an advancing EM wave front
that meets the SSE/DSE slit wall before propagating thru the slit cavity(s). It is presented
so that it is easy for anyone to conceptualize the mechanisms that affect the propagation
of the advancing wave front.

It is proposed that an advancing EM wave front is phase coherent with itself, and
propagates as a self perpetuating EM energy pulse with a finite amplitude and frequency
dependent time duration. This implies that separate photon “wavelets” that have radiated
from some series-parallel atomic source emission events, are closely matched in their EM
rotational phase angles and timing relationship to each other. It is the time and phase
relative EM components of the individual coherent wavelets that are responsible for
self interference.

The individual parallel wavelets of the energy pulse were each radiated with almost the
same synchronous timing but with a slight phase and timing differences caused by the
physical separation of the atoms and electron latency delay interactions of the atoms of
the source matrix. It is also conventional to consider an undisturbed advancing photon
wave front as having a 3D conical wave form shape. It is proposed that the conical shape
is generated by the individual, and slightly out of phase, photon waves that overlapped as
they radiated from their individual atomic dipole sources. When combined these
individual overlapping photon waves propagate as a coherent “unit” wave front at
a specific time synchronous pulse frequency. This conical wave front will uniformly
spread in 3D as it propagates in time, and form a nearly planar wave front the further that
it radiates from the source.

The advancing unit wave fronts will conform to the shape and size of the cavity or
obstructions in their path and will always seek the “path of least resistance” to their
perpendicular direction of propagation as they radiate away from the source. Portions of
the advancing wave front(s), that impinge on matter in their path, will reflect at the
complementary angle of incidence away from the angle presented by the
obstruction.

The subsequent stimulated frequency oscillations, of each emitting atom’s individual
electron, generates a separate wavelet “pulse” at the atomic oscillating frequency
determined by the orbital energy level occupied by the electron its corresponding atom.

As the advancing and expanding coherent photon wave front strikes the slit wall, the
leading edge of the wave is reflected back toward the source, and also folds back
into itself, setting up standing waves that constructively and destructively interfere with
newly arriving coherent wavelets of the pulse. The reflecting wave front interferes with
itself along the 2D frontal surface of the slit wall. The standing wave(s) generated by the
reflection is phase dependent and represents one single wavelength in time and spatial
separation across the wall surface.

If viewed as wave functions in slow motion the individual arriving wavelets will cancel
if they reflect perfectly 180 degrees out of phase with arriving wavelets, or they will add
their accumulated energies if they are perfectly in phase and reflect back toward the
source depending upon the time “lag” and the phase orientation of the advancing wave
energy. The potential energy of the atoms of the slit wall is stronger than the kinetic
energy contained in the advancing wave fronts which blocks and reflects the wave energy
applied back toward the source. Very little of the wave energy applied is absorbed by the
wall, but there could be some EM voltage component from the wave front that is induced
into the EM fields of the atoms that comprise the flat surface of the wall (plasmon’s), depending upon the atomic composition that makes up the structure of the wall.

The wall slits and the advancing wave front.

The advancing EM pulse wave front will become conformal to the environment it is
propagating thru and will seek the path of least resistance as it advances. Depending upon their size and geometry, the slit cavities allow the impinging EM components
of the wave front to pass thru, but it also “induce” phase and timing delays to those
edge wavelets propagating closest to the slit sidewalls, that are within the dimensional
influence of the surface EM fields (plasmons) of the atoms of the walls. This is proposed
to be an EM field induction process, where the magnetic fields of the advancing wavelets
interact at a 90 degree angle relative to the electrical fields projecting from the sides of
the slit sidewalls. The relative closeness of the slit sidewalls (the narrower the slit gap),
affects the overall electrical field density that is “radiating” from the atoms that make up
the slit walls. High electrical field density (plasmons) will have a greater induction
effect when interacting with the magnetic fields of the advancing photon wavelets and will induce higher phase and timing delays by slowing down the wavelets passing thru
the fields. The induced phase and timing delays represent an index of refraction to the advancing wave front and will spread the wave energy. This effect is very similar to
how an optical lens couples electrically and magnetically to photons passing thru the
EM fields of atoms in the matrix of the lens media. A lens induces phase and timing delays that cause an index of refraction (a delay) to the advancing wave front.

Depending upon the frequency of the wavelets, and the geometrical size and shape of the
slit cavities in the wall, some of the individual wavelets that make up the arriving photon
wave front(s) will pass thru the center of the slit cavity with no distortions introduced into
their timing or phase angle rotation of their “discrete” EM fields. Wavelets that “strike”
along sharp corners of the slit cavity will reflect at oblique angles from those corners but
will no longer be symmetrically phase coherent with the rest of the advancing wavelets,
so no interference will occur and those wavelets will randomly scatter from the corners.

This is enough for now.

Let the arguments begin!

LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jan 28 2007, 03:51 AM

Hi Laserlight,

I disagree in the detail but I will wait to see how you back up your arguments.

Individual photons will always interfere with themselves.

Cheers

Hello All,

To help substantiate my argument about light interacting with phonons:

Brillouin scattering of light reacting with phonons.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...d/brill.html#c1

LL

GE,

I cannot open this paper....

http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0953-8984/4/14/006/

Casimir effect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

Hi Laserlight,

Scattering is individual photos being scattered. That is a particle interaction... what is your point? What do you mean "light" interacting with "photons"? Photons are light. The Casimir Effect is also interaction photon by photon. Try not to quote from papers that require substantial investment in money otherwise I think you are just hiding behind an academic facade. Everything so far has not proven your point you will need to do a whole lot better. Get something relevant to the question.

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jan 28 2007, 07:57 AM

Hi all,


No, I haven't given up on you guys, I've just been too busy to get a good chance to post. I have been trying to keep up with the reading, though.

The Visser links (can't remember who provided it, but thanks) was outstanding for me! The 'third' slit/wave added, and the results; the color green missing from their experiment, and being replaced by magenta; "hidden" singularities; 'partial' coherence : all directly support my theory, confirming the 'predictions' I've made along the way.

Jal is heading back to an important part of this, and has been talked about several times: Four-Wave Mixing. Also, the last link was very helpful (www.rodenburg.org). I think that the 'corkscrew'~helix~spiral~vortex form is the way to go. If anyone wants to see the 'pictures', as well as a first rate explanation of the relation to Pythagoras, triangles, and the physical interpretation of the "imaginary" number, Rodenburg's website is a great!

I think further discussion of Polaritonics in general is a very good idea. Keep in mind though: there is also a very valid model and explanation for the diffraction pattern that is based AT the screen. The papers by C. Roychoudhuri exemplify the growing evidence in that direction. I believe that that makes both views valid (at the slits vs at the wall), and that means that something is 'missing'.

I don't think that it's wise to put 'all your eggs in one basket', the basket being "at the slits" explanation, and plasmons. GE brought up one good point, the slit might not be metal, and then the model runs sour. The surfaces of metals have unique electron properties, and the explanation doesn't work for other things. The other thing was the "air molecules" that populate the chambers: lots and lots of electrons are to be "crossed" (absorbed/emitted) before reaching the wall. 'Clear' light still begs explanation; how is it that the light/matter interaction in air results in "nothing". No wave collapse; no energy loss; no Doppler shift... YET, the 'wavefront' re-assembles. By what mechanism?

There is "Nothing" between a frequency, and beat-frequency. This "nothing" becomes evolving nodes in space, counter-evolving with the anti-nodes. The whole system is in a changing state, each describable by a different geometry. Resonant interactions can cause a "jump" in geometric state in the same way as a "jump" up in orbit states.

http://www.csulb.edu/~mbarbic/plasnano.htm

The Geometry of Musical Chords

Keep in mind that my model produces chords (predicts), on a basis of the interactions of 3+ frequencies, each having "harmonic ratios" (partially coherent) other than 1/1 . So, the geometry of chords, and quite possibly all multiple interactions of frequencies (energy over distance; density) stem from "Resonance" of individual vibrations.


and this



is back to my "breaking up magnets" analogy. A simple bright/dark pattern can be produced easily with "polarity" of a frequency within a 'width', or limit of 1 octave. This can be observed through a prism directly. In 'color' (for us), this polarity is "magenta and green", which can not be produced by the same transition. A little more diffraction (further into Fresnel zone) and magenta becomes black, green becomes white. (from opposite our 'normal' frame)

These 'vortices' are happening at the slit wall, and the screen. Are they happening "on the way" as well, in a turbulent, non-linear, plasma state? This can be the mechanism for the "wave front re-building", with the "dark spots", or nodes taking part in the "virtual sphere" of the wave. The node/anti-node relationship acting similar to the Solar plasma, with its' "twisted" EM fields that become "separated". Only upon 'reconnection' does the energy exchange take place. "On the way", these disconnected E and M components are not technically (or normally) an EM wave, yet they can sum at any time, with the help of a dielectric ensemble. This node/anti-node relationship is created simultaneously by the frequency and the medium, and consequentially, can "explore all paths" via their fixed, instantaneous positions throughout the entire system.

regards,

T.Roc


PS. I didn't see your post until after I posted LL, so this is not a direct reply to that.

This post has been edited by TRoc on Jan 28 2007, 08:23 AM

I keep re-reading this stuff and as yet you guys do not present a specification for that troublesome stuff called LIGHT.

How about starting a thread which defines this LIGHT stuff.

To me it is the stuff of everything.

Stann