Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

Hi Laserlight,

Sorry about being "vague" but it is not as though we have agreed on terminology here and I am not writing for submission to a Scientific Journal... I am knocking this stuff out once a day.

You do have the essence. The "event" is timestamped and obviously position stamped as well since photons emitted from different positions must vary in spatial phase. This standing wave "resonance" is established for each photon almost instantly in that moment before the photon has "propagated". We know that each photon ends up being coherent with other photons emitted from the same source and from the same general position provided we apply some spatial filtering. And providing we apply temporal filtering to select monochromatic light these photons appear to be all on the same wavefront. They are then "correlated". Successive wavefronts are also correlated but in no way does this remove the uniqueness of the events in which they were made, they simply "jostle" around minimizing the systems overall dynamic energy (that is "between" unrelated photons).

Only one photon at a time is emitted from any given atom at a single fixed "absolute" position. In a LASER the photons which were created at different times may be correlated because the photons can travel many times along the primary axis of the LASER Tube Resonator. Naturally this does not happen with radio transmitters owing to the way in which photons are generated. Maybe they do in the associated tank circuit where the wave is "amplified". Each individual photon is frozen in time... the instant it was created and stays that way until it is "detected". This is another way of stating Dirac's Conjecture only my reason is process related and not a Quantum Postulate. Being frozen in time means that it cannot notice any event from any other time or non-local place but its own single frozen instant. It almost goes without saying it cannot exchange energy with any other separate event either. Energy needs time in order for a "process" to occur (a transfer or exchange of energy or momentum for instance). There is one one type of "process" that is the exception that is a non-particle interaction... a wave only interaction in which information between two beams may be correlated. I have discussed the experiment previously on this thread.
Experimental Synchronization of Independent Entangled Photon Sources
I reported it here to provide context...
http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=161444
This is an important exception regarding information "entanglement".

Getting back to the main issue here it is not a simple 2πR = nλ situation. It is just as complicated as for the Double Slit Experiment with a volumetric spatial phase (and yes you may need to apply one of three applicable situations to it... near-field Interference, Fresnel Interference, or Fraunhofer Interference). In the case of particle fields and particle creation events the spaces (these are higher dimensional spaces) are formed in the process so that "internally" the "still propagating" photons believe they are traveling along inertial geodesics wrapping after an integer number of wavelengths (actually it is that same instantaneous pattern I have been speaking about formed globally inside that space in which the photon is confined to travel but now inside the tiny Universe particle. Externally this geometry is broken and the photon (if you could see it... remember you cannot see anything there... ) is sensed by its external evanescent field which is wave only process that penetrates out through the light cone of the particle as a deBroglie wave but as a reciprocal frequency. We have discussed this all before how deBroglie particles work. The major point is since the event is a photon frozen in time inside the particle and it was created to actually fill the space, what we have is one of the solutions for spherical harmonics inside that internal space and it will "persist" for all time, since it has "anticipated" the advanced and the retarded waves within the space and has produced a closed world line for the photon. Same process as in "flatspace" now occurring in a higher dimensional space, but this time "freezing a permanent particle" on the light cone as far as we can notice, emanating a wave (in a stationary state) that cannot lose any energy for the rest of recorded history. This is what a stationary state really is... it is the quantum and is periodic in frequency and in space according to Fourier Theory. I hope this helps.

Any other questions are welcome by anyone.. I realize I am not too clear, but you should see what all you all are saying "from my side"!! He he he! We will never make good Choir Boys.

Cheers

Hi Laserlight,

Yes of course... was it ever in doubt that this is the meaning of seeking all paths? It can double back, split into multiple sections, go in opposite directions and be in many places all at once because it is like a light caustic. And yet as long as no "measurement" occurs this is fine for a wave. A measurement instantly localizes it. The wavefront is extended ... for a single photon and it can divide but the information transferred is singular. The electric field lines and the magnetic field lines are not really "broken" because nothing breaks in zero time... everything requires some time to happen, so the photon "splits and reforms in literally zero time" in a non-energetic process without penalty in energy or geometry. In "our time" this could be thousands of years and billions of individual processes but "our time" does not matter to individual propagating photons. This process cannot be observed for the very obvious reason light can't be seen until it interacts in a particle interaction. All this is because it is only a wave phenomenon not a particle phenomenon. Particles can't split and reform... one of the impossibilities of so called particles. Particles can't go through two slits at once. Particles can't be in two places at once but in our Universe all this is permitted (they are particle violating processes). It shows that particles are not a full answer.... waves are. Particles as I have previously said are bosons with "spin".

That Cesium Cell is a slow light trap. No secondary emissions there... just drop that idea LL it is just not happening. Time of propagation is being stretched.

Particle process would destroy the qubit and play mary-hell with entanglement. Read the article (especially between the lines).

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jan 21 2007, 09:41 AM

Hey,

Have earlier posted some ridiculous WW1 RAF-esque banter on own thread; seriously though, what if the information gathering mechanism for a photon was actually provided by the electron from which it's supposedly emitted; in my own absurd understanding, the photon is still attached as an embedded daughter particle 'riding' (integrated wise) within the electronic transdimensional wavefront as it passes out of our brane into hyperspace. It's not the photon that seems everywhere, as the everywhere is where the transdimensional electronic wave will eventually be.

My god I'm clever ... I want my nobel prizes by the dozen! & lots of sex with egghead groupie types (prefer blonde, size 16+.... big boobs)

This post has been edited by fivedoughnut on Jan 21 2007, 11:53 AM

Hi Fivedoughnut,

No worries. That is just more information that can be part of the "stream". Obviously any information that go to making up the package that photon has will need a further means of decoding than just this simple mechanism...

Almost everything to do with quantum information comes back to this and the article really only is an adaption of an Optical Fourier Transform "Device" which was developed over 40 years ago.. The system as implemented incorporates some photonic systems but has Holographic principles as well as Fourier techniques.

The input plane is the mask, the Fourier Plane is the center of the Cesium Cell (slow light chamber for temporary delay storage) and the output plane is the camera. You can Google some of the other items easily. You read the holographic fringes using the fiber as it goes bye. Everything "old" is new again. There really is nothing "new" under the Sun.

Of course all credit to the guys who built it. This did not come out of a QM book did it? He he he! Time to hurriedly add a new chapter I suppose.

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jan 21 2007, 01:29 PM

Hi Laserlight,Good Elf, jal, TRoc, Aerohead, NF et al,

An assumption..
The electrostatic field is fundamental and is made out of 'Electrostaticness' (E). We are also aware of magnetic fields which are made out of 'Magneticness' (H) . Maxwell's Equations ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_equations ) give us the relationship between Electrostaticness and Magneticness.

The way an Electromagnetic wave is constructed out of E and H is given here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_wave_equation

The game..

To construct a 'thing' that has both the observed properties of a photon and the observed properties of an Electromagnetic wave which is (by definition) made out of E and H.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Let us look at one property of a photon .. it seems they don't lose energy 'in flight', to confirm this rule we can go out at night and look at a star.

Let us naively assume a photon is made out of a little bit of the same thing as an EM wave..

I will call this the "Big birds are made out of little birds hypothesis"

(1) We launch our 'photon' .. it dissipates. From this simple experiment it would seem that photons are not little bits of the same thing as an EM wave.

Conclusion
Big birds are NOT made out of little birds.

If we agree so far .. is there any evidence to show that photons are made out of EM waves except wanting this to be true? EM waves DISSIPATE .. am I the only only one to notice this? Have I made a mistake somewhere?

Best wishes,

-C2.

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Jan 21 2007, 02:11 PM

Good Elf,

We have been through this cycle many times now.

Reading through your last posts it would appear to the casual observer that you are collecting evidence about the true nature of a photon .. What happens next (many times) is that you post that a photon is best represented by an expanding sync pulse containing five cycles of a sinewave of frequency given by E=hf.

Hopefully this explains why I am still writing about big birds and little birds... if we look at the big bird and everything you've ever copied out about the properties of the little bird .. please tell me you don't still think the little bird is just expanding sync pulse..

Best wishes,

-C2.

Maybe John Baez can shed some light on the problem ..
http://www.lepp.cornell.edu/spr/1999-02/msg0014938.html

Best wishes,

-C2.

Hi Confused2,

I have no idea where you could have gotten such "absolute rubbish" from... Certainly not from me. "My Construction" shows how "individual photons" may "sum" to produce Continuous Wave radiation. I have never said that CW is a photon. My model of a photon is taken from research in other areas which show that an impulse is the correct model to use for a photon and a sync pulse the best "model" in the frequency domain for a single photon (being it's transform), hence the MIT Model. What you are suggesting is the other way around. I can see that my efforts have been totally lost on you to this point. I am unsure if you are just being obstinate... or are you being insulting?? Your "bird" hypothesis is total nonsense. You either take me for a fool or worse with lame descriptions or are you parodying me? What I do not intend to do is try and explain it all to you again... I gotta get a life! This is a great disappointment.

Lets look at that "bird" hypothesis... do you really understand what you are saying here?

Individual photons do not lose energy and that is an experimental fact I do not have to prove. If you like you can have a go but I have better things to do. Light spreads but it is absorbed only as complete packets of E = hf. Photons are emitted as a spreading packet but a constant group wavelength, and they are absorbed as a complete packet at a single site usually as a tiny flash of light on a CdS screen... they do not dissipate and they do not fade away just because they travel a long way. The flash is not an indication of the wavefront but the arrival of a wavefront will dictate the options available to a particular photon (as in the DSE). It is without doubt that a photon can and does pass through both slits at the same time... try covering one slit and see if you get an interference pattern... this works down to a single photon passing both slits in a "large" period of time relative to the velocity of light and the wavelength.

The total light from stars is spread over a vast area of the universe and thus the intensity falls off as a 1/R² where R is the distance from the star. This is because the number of photons reaching your feeble eyes subtend a rather small steradian angle with the distant stars. You are staring at a sun but you are so far away that only a few photons will enter your eye over any short period of time. Individually these photons are impulses, more accurately represented as single sync pulses, but they reside on a very large effective wavefront by the time they get to earth.

Photons are bosons and they occupy identical quantum states and they occupy the same spatial volume but they are not identical since they all originate from different "information sources" simply because a single atom cannot emit two photons simultaneously. This information is conveyed without loss to your eye as well but the information is lost to our optical system since it records only the wavelength and the intensity on a two dimensional surface. Your eye is also not sufficiently sensitive to see single photons as well, this is a problem. Your eye detects only intensity so seeing only a few photons at a time the distant stars are not that bright. This is second grade stuff... "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star how I wonder what you are?"

The Electromagnetic Continuous Wave Equations are not very useful for dealing with "classical" individual photon packet propagation. It is a very mathematical topic and few are up to it... That is why I used animations... close enough. It is not my fault that little appears on the web regarding this matter.

Cheers

They are letting the photons in one at a time but the image is built up of many photons. Dont believe that only one photon can hold a big amount of information. Their nanosecond pulses contained more than one electron. The article was written badly and lead people to the wrong conclusion.

Hi Good Elf,

I assure you .. no attempt at parody .. just an attempt to get us to this point..

In this post you http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...ndpost&p=168685 you say

"Obviously any information that go to making up the package that photon has will need a further means of decoding than.. "

also

"Individually these photons are impulses, more accurately represented as single sync pulses"

I'm sorry, the two views seem totally unrelated and incompatible .. can you please clarify whether or not there is any connection between the two views? I fail to see how you maintain both views simultaneously.

Best wishes,

-C2.

Good Day All!
HI C2!
I’m still in the learning stage.
I’ve got more trouble than you. David Finkelstein may be killing my unborn baby (model) since his approach is more in line with TRoc. I hope that someone can understand his paper better than me and reassure me that my baby still has a hope of being born.
He is working on a “dynamic” approach with only waves.

http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/facul...inkelstein.html

David Finkelstein Professor Emeritus
Ph.D., MIT, 1953
Phone: (404) 894-5220
Room: Howey-W210A
EMail: david.finkelstein [at] physics.gatech.edu

http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/facul.../FHO0410082.pdf
Finite Quantum Harmonic Oscillator_
Mohsen Shiri-Garakani David Ritz Finkelstein
School of Physics, Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta
October 13, 2004
Maybe my baby is not going to die since a wave approach and a quantum geometry approach can be used on my model.

Good Elf we are listening but we are not believing.

Previously, I have already re-worded your view and I cannot see how it lead to a model that we can build with which we can “zoom in” and get a better understanding of how the universe works.

You are discounting all other models and have too much faith that your view will lead to a better model. You got to be able to produce a new model with predictions.
The predictions have got to be better than mine to get any attention.
I predicted how protons and neutrons are made from first principle and nobody paid any attention or believed it. Did you buy your orange?
jal

GE,

That was one of the better posts that you have made. It was clear, succinct,
and relatively short.... . It was easy to tie your thoughts together and
you didn't try to bring in too many random, but associated, topics.

Now we are communicating!

Believe it or not, I agreed with EVERYTHING that you said in that post.
OH HAPPY DAY!

We are finally getting somewhere, and our different theoretical approaches are
merging into one.

Some simplified thoughts necessary to establish "relevance":

1. A "light cone" is a manifestation of each individual photon event. It is the
physiological "boundaries" in which a single photon exists as it propagates.
It is the confinement area of the photon's dipole radiation pattern.

2. You have finally "capitulated" or tacitly agreed with a long ago post of mine
where I said that an EM wave is comprised of individual photon's that are
just slightly out of phase but that propagate together.

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?act=ST&...ndpost&p=140703

Best Regards,
LL

GE,

I gather, from your last several posts, that you have changed your mind about
whether or not a photon can divide. You were previously adamant that it
couldn't divide. Do we agree that it can only "divide" spacially, in so far as its
energy can recombine beyond an obstruction in its path. In other words,
a photon that cannot recombine its established wavefront energy pattern cannot
divide. Once the EM wave energy "symmetry" is broken, the photon is detected.
However, if the photon can "reestablish" its wave pattern beyond an obstruction
it will continue propagating and expanding along its wavefront, but with slight time
or phase delays to the original signal that are slightly shifted with respect to the
original signal. The EM wave "signal" becomes "delayed" and will alter its "flight"
vector course at some offset angle from the original flight course.
This is what happens when an EM wave is diffracted, its timing and "flight" vector
changes.

RE: the cesium gas medium. Here is an interesting link of its use as a
multiphoton spectroscopy detection medium.
http://wwwlib.umi.com/dissertations/preview/7909388#index

I agree that it slows down the individual parts of the advancing wavefront
due to diffraction, but is it really all that it is doing? The individual
expanding sections of the wavefront, that are individually expanding from
each "UR" source segment, are being refocused and made time coincident by the geometrical focusing shape of the lens.

It appears that the cesium gas does have some amplification properties by
generating "secondary" photons, which are collected and focused by the lens
configuration. FWIW, cesium is used in photoelectric cells.

Regards,
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jan 21 2007, 06:24 PM

the photons that propagate together..propagate together! Paraphrase of "Chuck E"

Have we drawn a feynmann diagram of the double slit apparatus yet? I want to filter out some of the extraneous ideas, like the amplification effects of the cesium atoms from the double slit affect itself.