Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

Good Day!
Good Elf
It is a good presentation of what has served us well in the past and until now.

There are more at animations from them at
http://web.mit.edu/8.02t/www/802TEAL3D/teal_tour02.htm
Visualizing Electricity and Magnetism at MIT
As you guessed, I like
The Ion Trap since it is another step towards understanding my model.

Twelve identical charges in a potential well that forces them together against their mutual repulsion. Press "s" for a bounding polygon after the charges have settled down.
---------------------

We do not know…. It is a theory and a model.
The day is approaching when we will need to “know” in which direction the photon is emitted.
guiding_light found an interesting article.
http://newsroom.spie.org/x5251.xml

Also, see his paper http://www.phys.uconn.edu/~chandra/DivisiblePhoton-Final.pdf
Do we count indivisible photons or discrete quantum events experienced by detectors?
Chandrasekhar Roychoudhuri
SPIE Photonics East,1-3 October 2006


If photons are indivisible packets of energy/particle-like then a new model will be needed to be able to do new technological improvements. That day is fast approaching. (hehehe I have a model that just might be the answer. Hehehehe)
This is the same question that has been posed by

To this day, we have not had the technology or the need to determine if a photon was particle-like for our applications. ( Therefore, shut up and calculate, attitude)
I expect that in the near future the LHC will be able to give us an answer.
Read on
http://www.symmetrymag.org/cms/?pid=1000358
Extracting Physics From The LHC

It will take a few years to analyze the data …. I’m willing to wait.
jal

Hi Laserlight and Confused2,

The main problem with Laserlight's answer is a question of topology. While the system behaves in some respects like the model I once suggested this is only a behavioral model not the solution to the problem. I realize that this is good enough for many but it is not acceptable to me. At this stage the problem could be solved "easily" by adding dimensions to our enclosed box. I realize this is not acceptable to some. With higher dimensions at my disposal I could enter a completely sealed room... no problem. The electric field lines can't be fragmented so I would prefer to do something else. This example is not here to to "solve" our problem only to settle what we all think a photon really is. As I have been saying the "real" photon really does not go through the slits anyway only "waves" which are like shadows on the ground. There is a reality behind that "shadow" but it is not to be found in 4 dimensional spacetime. A single pinhole is not a barrier to a wavefront and two pinholes also are not a barrier to a wavefront. Each photon only interferes with itself and we need both pinholes to have self interference. The rest is a resolution based on internal logic. It may be that the wave is actually a superposition of states and not just a simple wave. For instance a plane polarized wave is also the superposition of two circularly polarized waves ... one left hand polarized and the other right hand polarized (at the same time). Believe it or not. For instance there is the small matter of "isospin"... it is "real" spin since it affects things and can make them spin in two dimensions but it is certainly not our kind of two dimensional spin that is only supported in our three dimensions and time. Leave this point for the moment it is in the "too hard" box just now.

Confused2 is talking probability again... and while there is probability I also want to speak about coherence. Incoherent systems are subject to some probability but coherent systems are "noise reduced". Hydrodynamic waves are not a true analogy. The collapse of the wavefront is "nothing"... If this wave's "shadow" covers half the galaxy (you can't actually see it anyway without disrupting it), the particle interaction is when the electric field lines begin to interact in a virtual photon mode and when this happens there are no longer any wave "shadows" to worry about (they are just not around anymore).

The other point is light travels wherever it is permitted to travel. Do not worry about canceling of wavefronts since these are not particles they are waves and they do what they will do without any problem. Do not try and use "matter" analogies to describe "real" wave phenomena. Real science would use the light analogy to describe water waves not water waves to describe light... there is no comparison between "moving condensed matter" and pure light... no disrespect but that is the sort of thing we enjoy at the beach not in the vacuum of space.

In a way all of our so called contradictions are only when we try and describe light using a matter analogy... by now we should understand light is not to be treated in such a way (Light is Special Relativity expressed in electromagnetic terms... one and the same). Look at the problems most people have with Special Relativity! In kindergarten the teacher would council the child that kept trying to knock the square peg into the round hole. In real life if we keep doing something that is akin to this they would think we are mad... the world is filled with a lot of strange people including Heaven's Gate Away Teams.

There really is no contradiction it is just that you want to hold to matter analogies that are totally inappropriate to light. There is only one analogy that will work is to work from the other end... understand how light works and you can eventually understand how matter works not the other way around.

The "animations" are not about psi waves they are electric field simulations of near and far field electromagnetism. The initial added commentary is my own and represents something new (... and in that sense a little radical... just a little!!). As I have always said that these fields indicate not just the propagation of large numbers of photons but also of single photons as well because of ordered boson states. The switch on and switch off "fields" are impulse functions and the "waves" that result from these have a "atomistic" interpretation in that within one single atom one transition will occur liberating one single photon. This is the basis of E = hf. The field falling to zero in this process allows the "loop" to pinch off and propagate away.

While the energy of a single photon extends further temporally than 1/2 wavelength and may average to about 1 whole wavelength it is not composed of 2 pi "snippet" of a sine wave but a single sync function (critically damped with all internal frequencies). The "nipping off" the wavefront is crucial to the understanding of the generation of how a quanta is produced... it is a truncated continuous wave... nature cannot produce any real continuous waves at all since there are no natural mechanisms to do this (at least none that I know). What we end up with are individual photons that can combine to form what simulates our continuous waves. The near field spreading at the speed of light is "interrupted" by the spatial field falling to a zero. This signals detachment of the virtual photon from the source creating a propagating photon with an energy of exactly hf.

Psi "waveforms" do not exist... psi is "probability"... a scalar quantity... electromagnetic waves are vector quantities... you cannot measure instantaneous probability. Electric and magnetic fields can be measured with a meter... that is the difference. I know that we are not going to agree that photons can be emitted "on demand" since an analysis of Quantum Mechanics can be used to show how random statistics can be used to produce non-random output. What I am saying is statistics is a group property that has no physical mechanism and because it is not a physical mechanism it does not need one either. What I say is I only want to deal with the physics and the mechanism that results in this statistics you are so fond of.

No amount of argument you put forward can indicate to anyone the dynamics of individual photons one at a time yet individually an individual photon does have a "dynamic" that we can determine after the event. Statistics deals with large numbers. What if I only allow you to see 10 disconnected photons... where is your statistics now. I have mentioned Ptolemaic Systems before that give good answers but cannot help with understanding the mechanism. This is what I am saying about my approach... it is all about internal mechanism... QM can't help understand anything about our universe except what the "big numbers" all do... no mechanism required. For instance Special Relativity is a "mechanism" based on electromagnetism and not based on Quantum Mechanics Statistics. I have indicated previously where QM is wrong and there are significant studies to show that it has a fatal flaw (see Canonical Typicality). We can limp along for another 100 years with that fatal flaw or we can move on now and look for some other way forward based on a physical mechanism.

It is my view that having a physical mechanism is better than not having one since the science will continue to hold some relevance to human society. Incomprehensibility is a very bad problem for mankind and I think we can have our cake and eat it too since particle descriptions are not exclusive of wave descriptions... It just means that the "Billiard Ball Universe" has some limitations some folks find very hard to see past and they will do anything to to fit that square peg into a round hole to confound human common sense.

Cheers

Psi "waveforms" do not exist... psi is "probability"... a scalar quantity... electromagnetic waves are vector quantities... you cannot measure instantaneous probability. Electric and magnetic fields can be measured with a meter... that is the difference. I know that we are not going to agree that photons can be emitted "on demand" since an analysis of Quantum Mechanics can be used to show how random statistics can be used to produce non-random output. What I am saying is statistics is a group property that has no physical mechanism and because it is not a physical mechanism it does not need one either. What I say is I only want to deal with the physics and the mechanism that results in this statistics you are so fond of.

No amount of argument you put forward can indicate to anyone the dynamics of individual photons one at a time yet individually an individual photon does have a "dynamic" that we can determine after the event. Statistics deals with large numbers. What if I only allow you to see 10 disconnected photons... where is your statistics now. I have mentioned Ptolemaic Systems before that give good answers but cannot help with understanding the mechanism. This is what I am saying about my approach... it is all about internal mechanism... QM can't help understand anything about our universe except what the "big numbers" all do... no mechanism required. For instance Special Relativity is a "mechanism" based on electromagnetism and not based on Quantum Mechanics Statistics. I have indicated previously where QM is wrong and there are significant studies to show that it has a fatal flaw (see Canonical Typicality). We can limp along for another 100 years with that fatal flaw or we can move on now and look for some other way forward based on a physical mechanism.

It is my view that having a physical mechanism is better than not having one since the science will continue to hold some relevance to human society. Incomprehensibility is a very bad problem for mankind and I think we can have our cake and eat it too since particle descriptions are not exclusive of wave descriptions... It just means that the "Billiard Ball Universe" has some limitations some folks find very hard to see past and they will do anything to to fit that square peg into a round hole to confound human common sense.

Cheers

you might be right about do something that doesnt work again and again but dont bring "mechanisms" into this you're gunnna get worse results.

Hi Jal,

The secret is to be only "slightly" ahead of your time Jal. Your idea is too far out on the fringe for the rest of us to see tying into all the other "stuff" around.

For instance there are no space filling structures that have really equidistant points throughout. The Universe uses Pythagoris' Theorem not some rewrite of equilateral triangles. Every means of stacking produce different lattices planes depending on orientation. I am familiar with X Ray Crystallography and have analyzed these lattices in my practical work year ago. I understand Bragg Law etc.. It was one of the subjects I did. The body centered structure you indicate has nothing to do with the model you are using in your theory. You can't use just any old crystal structure to support your concept. Crystals are important but as a basic structure in spacetime.... I just can't see it. You will need to do much more than that to convince me there is a hexagonal structure just hanging in space organizing where all the energy is going.

Maybe you are right Jal but you need to prove it with a real experiment that shows your principle being the only solution to a real problem that nobody else has answers for. Until then you have a great deal of difficulty making people believe you. At this stage of the game I am more comfortable with the ideas I am holding than to abandon them in favor of an idea that I can't think of a single practical reason why I should adopt. Prove to me why we need your theory Jal? It must be convincing and because it is so radical an idea your proof needs to be quite deeply profound in the way it answers all the major questions that other theories do in a "doddle".

Cheers

Hi Good Elf, Confused2 and all !

Thank you, GE, for answering (partially!) my question about the single RF electron / photon. I promised I'd go back to reading - but this topic is "exploding" and I'm so pleased to be reading it that I feel like I'm back in school learning physics again. YES ! Maybe there's hope for us "old guys" after all.

Several points about "mechanism:"

This sounds like real physical "mechanism" to me. I just can't help (and have for years) that there is an ENORMOUS clue here at the often overlooked RF end of photon production. Add to this from Confused2:

So, I think the remainder of the answer to me question is : only ONE antenna in the far field will detect the single RF photon produced from the single electron. Exactly WHAT happens as those field lines "break" is a BIG mystery, isn't it ? ! The instant the break is made, the other antennas don't get to play. I wonder how THAT is communicated spatially across large distances as the break surely consumes virtually zero time.

Jim

GE,

I think that your description of the "pinching off" of the electric field is a
consequence of the collapse of the "charged" atomic dipole arrangement
that exists between the electron and its corresponding positron.

As opposing charges of the electron and positron come closer together an
EM voltage and current is induced and released as an EM pulse, a photon,
as the dipole steady state "ground" is achieved. When the atomic dipole
becomes "charged" again, by the addition of energy to the atom, the dipole
arrangement and atomic "charge level" is reestablished.

An analogy:
Think of it like bringing your statically charged finger close to a ground point.
As your finger moves closer towards ground, the voltage builds up until a
breakdown occurs and the electrons seek the ground state. The result is an
energy pulse, a spark that radiates an EM signal component.....photons, that can
be detected as a crackle at a receiver. They can be detected in every
perpendicular direction from the "dipole" created by the spark.

If the spark is contained within a Faraday box with spaced holes in it, the EM
signal can be detected at the output of each of the holes. The EM energy seeks
the path of least resistance and leaks thru the holes and couples to "space".
.....

I had written a photon and EM wave generation "process", similar to the one you
detailed in the prior post, that I have not posted, but will do so for comparison
purposes and to further discussion. TRoc has seen the "unedited version" a couple of months ago. I will post it shortly, once I locate it from the files saved from a
recently failed hard disk.

Constructive comments and discussion welcomed.
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jan 18 2007, 06:16 PM

Good Day All!
Good Elf You gave me a respectfull answer about my model. You are right much work needs to be done. It is being done by the the string, and quantum geometry people.

Aerohead's questions and millions of others need a "mechanical" response of what is actually happening. Your way is too nubulous to answer the "how" to make it possible to go to the next level of technical development.

Do not forget to read the paper that I mentioned http://www.phys.uconn.edu/~chandra/DivisiblePhoton-Final.pdf
It does represent a lot of what we have been discussing. I also undermines some of your points.
It does support some of the points made by the other participants of this thread.
jal

GE,

One thing that seems "constant" in physics is the nature of certain phenomena.
A wave, is a wave, is a wave. It is energy transport across some medium.
The method and degree of energy transport is a matter of scaling, IMO. I don't
think we can close our minds to this point. Some things just follow a natural
order and we must see the similarities between these physical characteristics.

An example:
The rotation of a galaxy has the same general characteristics as the rotation
of a star, the rotation of a planet, or a ball, or an electron, etc. Rotation is
natural phenomenon that follows natural laws. So do waves, IMO.

There are many other naturally occuring phenomena that follow this natural
"scaling". It is the "natural order" of the universe.

Other constructive opinions welcomed.
LL

GE,
I originally wrote this as a response to one of your posts some time ago and
have held off posting it until I felt that it was the right time to do so. Since
you have "opened the door", so to speak, now seems like the right time.

This is the "layman’s" perspective, so bear with me.

At the atomic level, the atoms must be “synchronous” or in phase in order to share
outer shell electrons . This can be considered a form of atomic “harmonic balance” in that
charges and fields must synchronize across the atomic matrix to insure localized field stability
atom to atom. The net energy and charges of the “unexcited” steady state atomic matrix must be
equal. This could be considered the steady state energy “strain” level of the atomic lattice.

Let’s start with the electron.

Doesn't it seem apparent that it is the state of the atom/electron, either excited or
at its normal ground state, that is the issue here? The electron is "free" only in
the sense that it is "mobile". Electrons move by virtue of moving “charge dislocations” in the
atomic lattice structure.. That infers that there are other “extra” mobile electrons
existing in the atomic matrix and on the exposed surface plane of the atomic matrix.
I contend that excess electrons in an “unbalanced” atomic matrix will migrate toward the
exposed surface plane(s) where they can couple to “free space” and generate charge forces.
The atoms/electrons on the exposed surface planes are photo "reactive" because most of the
surface atoms are already at a higher net energy level and act like atomic dipole antennas that
absorb complementary phased arriving EM photon energy. In RF terms this is the "skin" effect
where RF frequency currents travel only on the exposed outer surface area of the atomic matrix.
Consider it a Faraday cage effect.
…………
How photon energy with a specific frequency interacts with matter:

Photons, of specific spectral frequency, harmonically couple radiating EM fields (energy waves)
from free space to atoms of matter that are oscillating at an identical harmonic frequency and are
sensitive (tuned) to the electrical component. of the arriving photon energy frequency EM wave..

In the case of the photoelectric effect the receiving atomic "dipoles" must be properly
oriented at some point during their orbital excursion to be perpendicular to the EM fields of the
arriving photons. I believe the photoelectric effect is the antithesis of the dipole radiation effect.
One is an antenna absorption effect at the atomic level, while the other is the antenna radiation
effect. These must be complementary effects.

Arriving photon EM fields, of the proper frequency, simply cannot penetrate any deeper than
atoms at the surface layer of an opaque atomic matrix, because their electrical fields are
"detected" and converted to electrical energy by the dipole arrangements of the surface
atoms and their electron orbital relationship. This is a constantly changing instantaneous phase
relationship. There is a cyclical latency time period for this dipole phasing alignment to occur.

At some applied maximum energy point the electrons and atoms at the surface achieve an energy "saturation" level. They simply cannot perform the oscillations/transitions between the higher
energy orbital and the ground state energy level faster than the transition latency will allow.
This is the "resistance" of the atom to accept any more energy than it can "process".

This energy “saturation level” is also the negative ionization potential, where the atoms are
excited to their maximum energy absorption level. This would correspond to the maximum
negative charge potential that the atom/electron can attain.
The excited atom can absorb no more applied energy and is stripped of its outermost shell’s
highly negatively charged electron by nearby positively charged ions that have similarly lost
their outer electrons. Electrons flow from a negatively charged, excited ionic state, to a
positively charged ionic state across a potential that is the “ground” state for the atom.

After the ionized, highly charged, electron has “departed” its high energy state atom, the atom
assumes a net positive potential.. It also loses its dipole charge relationship that existed between
the proton and the electron, and “steals” or attracts another highly charged negative electron
from nearby atoms that are in a highly energetic charge state.

When the newly attracted, excited, electron falls into the ground state of the accepting
atom, a photon is emitted as excess charge energy is released, (I’ll call it a “quantum shock”
energy wave), and the dipole antenna arrangement is reestablished. The atom can now
absorb incoming energy again. It can only do this at a specific oscillating ionization cycle
frequency that is determined by the net charge energy level which is established by the positive
charge of the proton and other bound orbital electrons.

This ionic charge electron transport mechanism is an atomic level “chain reaction”
event occurring at the surface plane of a photo conductor that is sensitive to a specific frequency
or tight band of frequencies. When net electrical charges at the surface of a conductor are out of
balance they are easily influenced by externally applied, complementary induced, electrical charges that add energy to their already unbalanced charge states.

There must be a net ground potential for electron flow to occur.

The photon energy transfer is an electrical induction process, at the atomic level.
………………

How the photon induced electron flow “chain reaction” works:

The electron-atom dipoles must be aligned in phase with the arriving EM fields of the photons to
allow for full energy absorption and to induce the orbital level “step” transitions of the electrons.
This means that other nearby atoms must be out of phase, from a charge perspective, in order for
there to be current flow. There must also be a difference of net charge, “potential drop”, across
the atomic matrix in order to provide directionality of current flow.

This is where “harmonic balance” of the atomic-electron structure comes into play.

The atoms must be in a phase relationship such that as 1 atom loses an electron, another electron
takes its place in sequence. This is current flow, atom to atom, and is caused by sequential
net charge changes at the atomic level, up thru and to the macro level.

Once you exceed the “saturation point”, or the ability of the atoms to absorb additional excess
energy and complete their normal orbital “step” oscillations, the electrons become temporarily
charge "suspended" in their outer orbitals. The application of even more energy charge leads to
higher ionization levels of the atoms. The result is intensified photon radiation emission.

If excessive “external” energy is applied to the surface of the atomic matrix, beyond the
capability of the atoms to absorb the excess energy, and if maximum current flow capability is
exceeded, there will be too many high energy state electrons and negative charge saturation will
occur. Excessive negative charge accumulation on the exposed surface will cause the excess
electrons to be ejected from the exposed surface of the atomic “matrix” by the build up of localized repelling "space charges".

The emitted electrons couple to free space and radiate away from the highly charged electric
dipoles. Too many electrons creates an accumulating net negative charge at the surface
of the matrix. Electrons that cannot fall back into the atomic ground orbital state are ejected
(emitted) by the accumulated build up of excess charge.

Electron current flow, in excess of the of the atomic matrix's ability to cycle atom to atom,
generates different forms of radiation as byproducts There are byproduct emissions, caused by
excessive applied energy levels, above the ability of the atoms/electrons to execute their normal
orbital displacement cycles. The byproducts are IR photons (heat) from secondary deep lattice
atom-electron interactions, photons (visible light), and excess electrons. The magnitude and type
of emissions depend upon the total energy operating in the system

An example:
Electrons, IR, and visible photons are ejected from the surface, as in a vacuum tube
filament, whenever there is excessive electrical energy applied to the filaments
cross-sectional ability to handle the amount of current applied. The more excess
energy that is applied, the more electrons and photons that are ejected. (good ole light bulb).

This is a surface ejection phenomenon, created by the atomic dipoles that are coupling
to space.

If you get too much current flow, the resistance of the atomic lattice of the filament generates too
much heat and the filament burns out.

Photon emission and electron emission is a function of the energy applied to the cross-sectional
area of the filament.

Electron currents can travel within the cross-sectional atomic matrix of a conductor
by virtue of electron-"hole" ionic pairing. Electrons and photons are "sequentially” displaced
and replaced across the atomic lattice. This is current flow. Once the atoms of the atomic matrix
reach the energy saturation (ionization) level and the ability to efficiently handle current flow,
photon emission/radiation of the excess energy occurs.

The frequency of the photons generated is directly proportional to the latency of the ionization
charge cycle. The photon emission frequency is the time for the atom/electron to change energy
levels and cycle from the high energy level to the ground state.

Other constructive comments, opinions, disagreements, discussion welcomed.
LL

Off topic...
Since Good Elf wants extra dimensions .... the following info should interest him.
http://cosmicvariance.com/2007/01/13/short...-still-the-man/
Extra dimensions must be smaller than .045mm
jal
edit: If you need an idea on how to intergrate them into our universe then look at my "packing" solution.

This post has been edited by jal on Jan 18 2007, 07:24 PM

Hi Jal,

My compliments! I am astounded. That was one of clearest and best written
theoretical papers that I have read. It was logical, thoughtful, and I could
easily meld, and identify, with the ideas and arguments that were presented. Hopefully,
the author will continue his line of reasoning and upset the status quo of
science. The implications of his arguments, if correct, will shake the foundations
of physics.

Thanks for posting it.

Regards,
LL

Hi jal, Laserlight et al,

From
http://www.phys.uconn.edu/~chandra/DivisiblePhoton-Final.pdf
Top of page 5

The experiment here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s...periments.shtml and in particular the result here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif would seem to show that there are inherently no photons where the beams are of opposite phase for the simple reason that these 'lost' photons are counted in the region where the beams add up 'in phase'. If photons (energy) were 'lost' then I might take Chandrasekhar Roychoudhuri's suggestion more seriously .. but it isn't .. all the photons are there and accounted for. If the results don't seem to agree with the CM theory .. need I say what that suggests (to me) about CM's theory?

Best wishes,

-C2.

Hi Good Elf,

Looking at the experiment here.. http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s...periments.shtml whatever the qaulities of the source it would seem that the single slit (after the light bulb) is intended to act as a new source.

The result here http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif shows that there is a perfectly good path through either slit individually yet with both slits open it would seem the photon (whatever that might be) is always randomly emitted through both slits (the slits are 0.5mm apart). Is there a reason for this?

Best wishes,

-C2.

More..

This "just not around anymore' Don't worry about C2 .. "he's just not around anymore" .. something has to have happened .. you can't just wave your hands and say "just not around anymore".


This post has been edited by Confused2 on Jan 18 2007, 08:43 PM

Hi All,

If Chandrasekhar Roychoudhuri is correct in Jal's link:

http://www.phys.uconn.edu/~chandra/DivisiblePhoton-Final.pdf

then what many people have been suspecting for YEARS is true: It's just the BOUND electron that is quantized. If so, is it possible that the unbound electron is not and THAT is why classical EM theory is enough to describe RF photons ?

Perhaps ALL the single-electron antennas can respond to the RF photon. Are we witnessing the regrowth / rebirth of continuum mechanics at the QM level of the photon?

If so, this is gonna keep me up nights. That paper was my own personal hunch 35 years ago !

Jim

Good Day!
The link came from the article provided by guiding_light.
http://www.phys.uconn.edu/~chandra/DivisiblePhoton-Final.pdf

Check my calculations.
I get .05mm
Speculation
This would be within the range of Good Elves' possible "other dimensions", .045mm. and would be a specific distance that light needs to travel as per my packing model.
jal