Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

Hi C2,

I think you should look at it differently. What happens if your Russian
soldiers each start off with either foot and have random step length, and one
leg shorter than the other?

They will take different paths. Those with similar physical attributes should
arrive at generally the same location. They are "entangled" by virtue of their
common traits. The way that they have to negotiate the geometry of the
slits will determine the direction of their new path. A wide slit means that they
can go thru with minimal impedance, a narrow slit means that they must turn
to one side, or the other, to get thru and they will deviate from a true straight
course.

LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jan 1 2007, 05:02 PM

Hello LL, C2, GoodElf, et al.

I like the shorter leg analogy for the Russian soldier . Matter affects the permeability/permittivity of space (via charge for example) and hence the speed of light. This affect extends beyond matter's surface. Charge collects at sharp edges, hence sharp edges will produce better diffraction patterns. The width of the slit with respect to the wavelength of light (or matter wave) determines the amount of diffraction observed.

As for two or more slits, the sensor's atom/molecule (or individual electron) as a whole acts as a integrating/summing device for all incident EM waves. It is just that this summing is tied to the energy states within the atom/molecule (electron trap). The slit width and spacing are chosen to maximize the effect observed.

As a side note has anyone run across an experiment that introduces a charge to the slits ?

Hi Montec,

I'm believing that localized EM proximity fields of matter do interact with the
EM fields of photons, especially near sharp edges as I elaborated in link #3 cited
in my previous post.

Sharp edges and small dimension geometries tend to focus field energies along
their boundaries, this is a known effect in the semiconductor production industry
and is most prevalent when high energy gas species (like SiH4) or RF fields are
used during a thin film deposition process. The result is a thicker, variable, or
non-conformal film deposition "bulge" in the immediate area of the exposed sharp
edges of the geometries being deposited on. I see the potential for a similar
phenomenon to occur in certain types of closely spaced geometries, but I have
no "proofs" or papers that reference how the phenomenon might affect photons.
I suspect that the theory of diffraction grating can explain the phasing
mechanism.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...grating.html#c1

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...ffracon.html#c1

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase...t/dslit.html#c1

Regards,
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jan 1 2007, 10:35 PM

Montec, can you tell me about yourself? I'm involved in the materials science field myself.

Hi Laserlight, Montec, TRoc, Jal, Duaity, Yquantum, Neil Farbstein et al,

I regret the introduction of the Russian soldiers .. they seem to be (partly) responsible for an all time low on this thread.

Before getting too carried away with the properties of the slits I think it might be helpful to look at an interferometer using a partially silvered mirror .. the result (the interference) is the same as that observed in the DSE.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase.../michel.html#c1
Some insight into 'coherence' might be gained by considering that light split into two paths by a partially silvered mirror is automatically coherent whereas the two slits of the DSE need a coherent source (eg a narrow slit) to generate the same interference effect.

The Michaelson Interferometer simply needs a monochromatic source**.

The Kennedy-Thorndyke interferometer is similar to the Michaelson version but no attempt is made to keep the path lengths equal. As in the DSE .. the interference effect does not rely on equal path lengths although this is not obvious from the discussion of the Michaelson interferometer.

Best wishes,

-C2.

** if the path lengths are almost precisely equal it seems whit light will work just as well.. this gives further insight into 'coherence'.

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Jan 2 2007, 12:56 AM

Hi Good Elf,
Whatever theory we might or might not have I hope we can agree that the results of the DSE are consistent with the same phase interference that one observes in the rippple tank and elsewhere.
Maxwell's Equations seem to be accepted as giving a good prediction of the effects of an EM wave in General Relativity and as such I don't feel they can be discarded lightly. The prediction of Maxwell's equations would appear to be that the speed of light is 'c' in any frame. Sources (not least Mr Homm) suggest that the electromagnetic equation is 'true' as h->0 . With h>0 we have quantized EM .. subtly but significantly different from a simplified picture of EM as being literally 'made up of discrete photons'.
A bit of a theme has emerged on this thread .. can a photon only interfere with itself? My own interest in the answer is not whether a research team with the right equipment can prepare two photons in such a way that they may (or may not) actually interfere. My real interest in is the bog standard situation where it appears (as far as I see) a photon can only interfere with itself. If a photon can only interfere with itself then it remains unclear whether this is a result of quantisation of EM or whether this is truly a 'photon' result.

Please give (or repeat) any reference that might have lead to this conclusion.

I suspect the 'Uncertainty Principle' is itself a metaphor for something rather deeper. Heisenberg developed a method from it which it seems Dirac (?)was able to show was equivalent to the Schrodinger equation .. nothing is going to be simple and nothing may be quite what it seems at the level of analysis we are able to apply.
TRoc (quite rightly) demanded that the books must be shown to balance - hopefully I gave an acceptable account. Always the books must be shown to balance or you are not in business. I have a little bit more maths than I generally attempt to apply .. if I can help then just say what you want .. someone else might help if I can't. Everything must 'couple together' one way or another.. nothing seems to get lost here.
Best wishes,
-C2.

C2,

I looked at the experiments that you referenced. IMO, the mirrors are refractive
cavities since the phase reference of the incident light is shifted from the
normal. There is a phase timing delay when light traverses a medium or
a plane interface between mediums other than vacuum. There are also
standing wave cavities between the two end mirrors of each beam.

In a past career, we used MM interferometry to measure thin film growth or
film removal using a laser reference beam. As the target thin film reflective
surface grew or shrank, the dimensional change in thickness of the thin film
material caused an interference waveform that accurately determined
the "endpoint" thickness desired. We required film accuracies if about an angstrom
of film thickness and a computer program determined process endpoint timing.
The commercial tunable laser interferometer was extremely accurate and
expensive and was temperature controlled to insure long term frequency
stability.


Regards,
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jan 2 2007, 01:52 AM

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This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jan 2 2007, 04:39 AM

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This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jan 2 2007, 04:40 AM

Hi Confused2,

Sorry but I do not think we are communicating here... no they are not... I have said this many times and I really do not have to demonstrate this again do I? "Cavities" occur even with sources deep in space... across the void as it were... these are standing waves not progressive waves and they establish "instantly" across all space.

Absolute rubbish, I am not "discarding" anything... I am not saying that Maxwell's Equations are not applicable... I am saying that they refer to 100% conservative systems... and non-stationary systems where you can deal with the Lagrangian of the System as if it was a closed "Black Box". I suggest that Quanta are not covered while in this state of "stationary systems" since no energy exchange is occuring and this is why Quantum Theory Postulates have been introduced... they are the "breakers" of the classical treatment. Maxwell's Equation if applied in a really dumb way DICTATES that an electron in "orbit" around an atom would spiral into the nucleus because according to Maxwell's Equations the "energy" radiates away... I know this is pure "BS" but this is the basis for the Quantum Postulate of "stationary states"... it is your proposal not mine!!!... It is part of Quantum Mechanics. What I sugest is that the spectra of quantum mechanical oscellators is "discrete" and for very good reason since these are "resonant" states of the system. No "ultraviolet divergences" but definite discrete emissions of "energy" defined by E = hf. But I also say there is considerable evidence that "something is happening" between source and sink as indicated in the experiment which I am sure you had a look at that I referenced previously.
Experimental Synchronization of Independent Entangled Photon Sources

Please give (or repeat) any reference that might have lead to this conclusion.

Regarding references on the Net about spontaneous coherence in the vacuum... there are few but they do exist. The reason for this is very simple... it is not a popular area of investigation since the effects of LASERs and other phenomena make the investigation not a very high priority. I have found a couple of dozen references, most of which require the outlay of significant amounts of money. I found out about this in my own researches using non-US based references into Bosonic States ... usually from Russia. They have clearly been more interested in this area of investigation.

One reference I have used on these threads before was This Amazingly Symmetrical World by L.Tarasov (Mir Publishers).

Western Research focuses on Condensed Matter since this is more amenable to "High Energy Applications" such as "Star Wars" etc..
This is on "excitons" (spin 1 Boson states) which are pseudo-particles or "lattice charge holes" created in solid or liquid state. It also has direct application to the behavior of many other phenomena such as the Bose-Einstein Condensate.... Spontaneous coherency...
Wikipedia: Exciton

But if you really want to understand what is the more important phenomena is Raman Scattering in the near vacuum....

Not the best reference but convincing enough provided you do a little research on you own. These "short pulses" are the photon sync pulses in the incoherent state as I have been indicating with my illustration...

... which shows this "impulse" and this is the "short pulse" in the frequency domain...
The way spontaneous coherence occurs in low density media is shown by my construction...

Where we see the temporal coherence under conditions where there would otherwise be "satellite lines" as indicated in the reference. Also you will see that the reference admits that Quantum Mechanics does not explain these observations successfully and I totally agree.

You really should simply do a little reading around since I have discussed this many times before... well at least "a couple"... I know our collective attention spans are better than you admit on this one. I am not responsible for the results of experiments but when I see them I use them. This is not "elf physics".

Cheers

This post has been edited by Good Elf on Jan 2 2007, 04:49 AM

All,

I want to revisit a topic that Yquantum originally suggested. Plasmon's,
and also a related topic of surface plasmon resonance (polaritons).

I think that these phenomena have bearing on how photons interact with matter
while negotiating the slits. Keep in mind that these topics "suggest" how a phase
delay might be induced into photons to change their characteristics, mixing, and
flight trajectories. It is only part of the story, since I think it has been
satisfactorily proven that the geometrical relationships of the slits determine
the dispersion patterns projected onto the screen.

Here are links describing plasmons and plasmon resonance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_plasmon_resonance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polariton

Comments, discussion welcomed.

LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jan 2 2007, 05:25 AM

LOL: plasmons, polarons, dilatons, excitons, radions, solitons, magnetons, phonons, singletons, partons, pokemons...

If we don't understand something, we can give it a name, at least..

Hello Zephir,

Well, is this another "hit and run" post by you, or do you have a better
scientific explanation of the exposed surface EM fields exhibited by matter?

Do you agree that matter couples energy to "space"? Can you explain the
mechanism? Please, no foam....

Regards,
LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Jan 2 2007, 06:10 AM