Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

TRoc, jal, Laserlight, Confused2, all,

I have read and the more it seems to show signs of QM weirdness in replies. No insult intended so please do not become upset with me, OK?

Would this be a accurate statement without bringing in my background that would come across esoteric for sure.

Guys, for example, it turns out that there is a fundamental limit about how much you can know about a subatomic particle. A physicist named Heisenberg worked out the math of this, and discovered that the more you know about one aspect of a particle (say, its position in space) the less you can know about some other aspect (like its velocity).

The closer you look at something, the harder it is to pin down. This idea is known as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

So let's say you are looking at an electron.

It seems to all of you the closer you look at it, the fuzzier it gets; you have a harder and harder time knowing exactly where it is. It's almost as if the electron is in many places at the same time, and at any given time you can't be sure just where it is. For any given moment, there is a probability that the electron is in a certain place, but not a certainty. Mathematically, you can describe the position of the electron using what is called the "probability function".

When you talk/type about something this small how can anyone put it into classical terms.

Just a question that needs attention.

Duality/Lisa

I have done a very tedious graphical count on the single photon experiment we've been looking at .. within the limits of my counting the total count of the interference pattern shows the same number of of photons counted as the sum of the two slits taken individually. I'm not sure TRoc is ready for that .. it means photons from one slit moved from where they were landing to the bright bits because the 'other' slit was opened. I'm not sure I was entirely ready for it myself.

Best wishes,

-C2.

Confused2
We have been saying that the "dark spots" is because the high and the low of the wave have been cancelling each other out.
In mid flight?
No?
Then a mechanism is acting on the electrons in the "dark spots".
The high is supose to make the electron go to a different orbit and go back down and emit a photon.
Is the low of the wave stopping the electron from going to that higher orbit and releasing a photon?
Is the action happening at the surface with the electrons?
What happened to the energy?
jal

A simple question.....well maybe not so simple...

If a single photon is represented by a single EM sine wave, which represents
the energy transition of the electron from a high energy level back to its
"ground" state. What is a constantly oscillating sine wave where the
electron is rising and falling periodically without interruption? Is it 1 photon or a
constant stream of individual but coherently phase connected photons, a ray?

2nd question, can this even occur?

I would say, no, it cannot occur. IMO, a ray is comprised of individual photon
EM fields that combine their discrete energy, in phase, and the result is an
amplitude increase.

In the regard that a single, self contained, photon of EM energy is discrete, it
can be considered a particle that propagates and reacts with matter as a wave.
In the presence of matter, EM fields can be combined/mixed.

LL

Hi all,




I have found the "Y" in the path that momentarily separated us (on the RGB deal).

First, the color TV uses "electron beams". (matter~matter, not light~matter)

Second, it fires SIMULTANEOUSLY at Red and (dark) Blue to create Magenta.

So my statement can stand: it takes "some violet" to make violet.

No problems there. One of the "pairs" that I think are Primary, is the Cyan/Violet pair. Your "dark blue" is the superposition of them both.

One down.


Nest, to LL's flashlight question:

and

OK, let's make sure we are comparing apples to apples.

The DSE is light "split up", the flashlight example is NOT.

The answer to your DIRECT question is NO. I would not expect energy outside of the area lit up by the flashlight.

IF, however, you rephrase the question to MATCH the DSE, IE. you SPLIT the light with a "red" plastic filter, I WOULD expect some energy to be "in between" the bright spots on the wall.

This might be MUCH easier to grasp if we increase the frequency to, say x-ray energy levels. Now, we have no problem whatsoever realizing that there is energy reaching the screen that has passed through the "tooth" of the DSE, or more practically, your hand, which is commonly NOT transparent.

"Colored shadows" are a "clue" to some part of the nature of light, that we can not see, but is fundamental to the process.


regards,

T.Roc

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~scidemos/Light...Perception.html

Guys,

This is not ego......well, maybe it is!

I believe the model that I have proposed for how the DSE operates is 98% correct.
I will leave some room for improvement...

I will reiterate it step by step.

1. The slits are geometric "energy cavities" that harmonically mix the incoming
EM phase angle "instantaneous" energy.

2. The energy of the arriving photons add energy to the cavity(ies), which resonates
and creates a "phase timing delay" to the energy of the photons. Oscillations
take time....thus the phase delay. This is the EM "signal" phase mixing area.

3. The instantaneous phase angle of the arriving photon(s) determines its "apparent"
energy at the point of entry into the cavity. That "apparent" energy component
varies according to the EM field amplitude, and phase relationship, upon entry into
the cavity. (TRoc called it "signal clipping", I think it is the right description)

4. The amount of energy added to the cavity(ies) by the arriving photon varies
the power of its harmonic oscillations, which affects its phase "delaying"
characteristics and the resultant energy added to the photon passing thru.

5. The fixed physical geometry of the cavities is reacting with the
variable energy geometry of the arriving photons, harmonically. This changes
their phasing and energy level and determines the trajectory of the photons as
they leave the confines of the slit cavities.

6. All harmonic mixing, phasing delays, and energy transfer takes place in the
cavities of the slits. The energy recombination and phasing delay, caused by the
cavities, determines the photon "projection" trajectories toward the screen.

7. If a photons EM field entered the slit cavity during the positive phase of its
EM field "rotation" it is projected to the right of the screen centerline. If the
photon entered during the "negative" phase of the EM field development it
is projected to the left of the screen centerline, when looking thru the slit
cavities toward the screen. (this may be reversed)

8. The amount of energy or rotational phase delay, contributed by the oscillating
harmonics introduced by the slit cavities, affects the photons momentum and its
angle of departure from the slits.

9. The instaneous "uncertainty" of the phase angle, as the photon enters the slit
cavity(ies), is what gives the bright bands their diffused area "spread". Notice that
they are never just a single clear smooth line, they appear as "diffused" lines.
Phase and timing uncertainty of the arriving photons is thus illustrated.

Comments, differences of opinion, clearer explanation, welcomed.


LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Dec 19 2006, 11:39 PM

Hi all,


To C2's last post:

Perfect! This is not a problem, and actually supports what I have said.

Somewhere back in this thread what a link that was from an experiment where the "lateral" movement of energy was looked at, rather than the perpendicular.

This is a form of conservation of energy, IMO.

SOMETHING pushes or pulls this energy present in the dark bands into the light bands. This is the "polarity" I am speaking of.

When you look at the "picture" of light cast through a slit, and onto a screen

go to this link, to see the diagrams:
http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-55/iss-7/c...ns/p43cap2.html

you get "# c" from above. Dark background, with a light "slit image" near the center.

This produces a very specific pattern of colors, when view directly through the prism.

When you ADD a SECOND slit, you put these "polarities" together. In affect, you RECOMBINE 2 magnets. You now have "one magnet", or one "phenomenon".

You set the stage for Violet and Red to be "next to each other", and you GET a dark band. Where the Yellow and Cyan come next to each other, you GET a light band.

This is a "directly observable" (albeit through a prism) EXPLANATION of the light and dark band pattern in the SSE, and DSE.

SSE = R-Y__C-V__R-Y__C-V__ R-Y__C-V

where the space between Y__C (__) = light, and
the space between V__R = dark

the slit provides the interaction zone, and the angles produce 3 images.

in the DSE, you just get more of the same, again, with intensity dropping off at the outside edges.

If you "BLOCK" one of these slits now, you REDUCE the space between these "fundamental color pairs" to this:

R-(Y-C)-V, or RGB which ALSO make "white" light.

Now you have JUST ONE "spot" on the wall.

I have done this experiment, and it works.


any better?


T.Roc



This post has been edited by TRoc on Dec 19 2006, 11:57 PM

guys,

The last set of students have gone home for a long and deserved break.

I know I have not been able to be apart of this DSE & I will confess I see no solution but everyone amazes me more than I could express in your passion.

I am tried of trying to help Zephir on the other post I really wanted him to see there was good and bad in this ideas. I am done. (I think?)

May I have permission not to monitor your post but become apart of it. I must confess I have doubts due to many years of not indoctrination but of experience in this field.

How does it go, NEVER say NEVER! I am most likely younger than most of you but I do not want to come across as a know it all.

It is you call, if I am to late or you think I am just a young woman with nothing better to do, then your wrong it is just we are here till the snow accumulates to about four feet or so.

Duality/Lisa:rolleyes:

TRoc,

Sorry, I'm not buying it. It just doesn't fit the SSE or DSE results using
monochromatic laser light or single "green" photons. There is always an energy
pattern of bright bands. There is no energy in the dark areas, no black color
mixing, nada. It is a shadow area of non-energy. Think of the dead "nodes"
of standing waves. An ant can survive in a microwave if he is located in a
non-energy node, however, if he wanders into a bright zone........
.
.
.
.
ZAP!
Crispy ant!


LL

Lisa,

Everyone can contribute. No one has a monopoly on ideas or discussion.

Jump right in there GIRL! We will be gentle!



LL

This post has been edited by Laserlight on Dec 19 2006, 11:59 PM

duality!
You gave me enough to read for a couple of days.
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~scidemos/xml2html.cgi?section=em
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~scidemos/Astro...ctrumPiano.html
for example
Piano
The visible part of the electromagnetic spectrum is represented by less than an octave of the keys; UV, IR, and microwaves are also indicated.
Your last post .... yea! I read the double slit too ... yep .... still weird
But I think that we are making progress.
Want to help us make music? A la TRoc or A la LL
jal

LL,

Again, in the REAL DSE, we are using a laser, and the color NAMES I am using have no significance.

What I want you to do, is look at the light and dark pattern through a prism. This is from "white light", so you get "spectral colors".

THEN, we can extrapolate this pattern onto the frequency used in a real DSE. Then, we will get the SAME PATTERN, in the SAME RATIOS, but with a new set of frequencies.


Do you follow?

T.Roc

Thanks guys,

I am going down to the basement and dig up some recent papers that are not slanted only towards the QM mindset, sure there must be some from another perspective that can add to this post.

Have my Starbucks and will return unless I fall asleep?

D/L

TRoc,

Keep going. What you are proposing is interesting, but I'm not sure how
relevant it is to the DSE discussion. I just can't connect the dots, or the
bright lines.

Keep in mind the nature of the universe is a function of opposites. The
Ying-Yang duality of harmony. Consider it a binary relationship, 1 and 0.



LL