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> Let's begin the Dialogue and Reconciliation of, Science and Religion Now!
AlexG
Posted: Jun 10 2010, 06:12 PM


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QUOTE
Most the posters here hate Christians.


Maybe it's because christianity is such a stupid, self-righteous, exclusive, violent religion.

Love the sinner, hate the sin?

Love the christian, hate christianity?


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flyingbuttressman
Posted: Jun 10 2010, 06:24 PM


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QUOTE (AlexG @ Jun 10 2010, 02:12 PM)
Maybe it's because christianity is such a stupid, self-righteous, exclusive, violent religion.

What is a religion but the sum of its followers? The average Christian is a pretty inoffensive person. The extremes, as usual, ruin it for everyone. Calling Christianity "stupid, self-righteous, exclusive, violent" is about the same as calling elected officials "stupid, self-righteous, exclusive, violent;" it's somewhat true, but it doesn't describe the majority.
QUOTE
Love the sinner, hate the sin?

Love the christian, hate christianity?

I don't think that following their example is sufficient in this case. I think it's perfectly sensible to love or hate anyone based on their individual merits. If you choose to use the label of Christianity to broadcast your own bigotry, then you kinda suck.


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AlexG
Posted: Jun 10 2010, 07:12 PM


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QUOTE
What is a religion but the sum of its followers?


The sum of it's leaders.


--------------------
Its the way nature is!
If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
To another universe, where the rules are simpler
Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
Prof Richard Fyenman (1979) .....

God does not roll dice with the Universe" - A. Einstein

"God not only plays dice with the Universe, He rolls them where you can't see" - N. Bohr


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flyingbuttressman
Posted: Jun 10 2010, 07:17 PM


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QUOTE (AlexG @ Jun 10 2010, 03:12 PM)
The sum of it's leaders.

Even then, there are many priests who devote their lives to serving the poor. There are monks and nuns around the world who devote their lives to serving people other than themselves in the name of their god. That really is admirable, no matter their opinion about whether god exists or not. I say that it's what you do, not what you believe, that defines you as a person.


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soundhertz
Posted: Jun 10 2010, 09:22 PM


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QUOTE
What is a religion but the sum of its followers?
Not sure.
It certainly is the sum of their followers' money. But I think that the hierarchy of a religion is far less savory than a good deal of it's followers. I do not believe the hierarchy of the Catholic Church was near as kind, gentle, or honest as my grandmother, for instance.




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flyingbuttressman
Posted: Jun 10 2010, 09:25 PM


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QUOTE (soundhertz @ Jun 10 2010, 05:22 PM)
I do not believe the hierarchy of the Catholic Church was near as kind, gentle, or honest as my grandmother, for instance.

I know quite a few Catholics who couldn't care less about the church hierarchy.


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fredinjeddah
Posted: Jun 11 2010, 05:37 PM


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QUOTE (El_Machinae @ Jun 8 2010, 02:15 PM)
Well, I think there are components of religion that are harmful to society, so I'm going to speak up about it.

As well, while it's technically appropriate to be agnostic on gods, I think that there's more than enough evidence to disprove Abrahamic conceptions of gods

Speak up about them by all means, especially if they are harmful to society, but you cannot go around telling people that there are a few things wrong (morally) with their religion (in your opinion), so they should stop believing in god. That is foolish and counter productive.

On one hand you are arguing that you want to expose harmful practices in Christianity, and on the other, you want to disprove Abrahamic conceptions on gods. In what way are Abrahamic conceptions of gods, harmful to society?



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fredinjeddah
Posted: Jun 11 2010, 06:15 PM


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QUOTE (Goofus A Gallant @ Jun 9 2010, 02:14 PM)
For all practical purposes, I am an atheist. However, I know people who were literally on the road to ruin. Usually drug problems... Many times they had turned suicidal. One day something clicked and their life turned around. Drug taking stopped - suddenly. They credit it to God and/or Jesus.

What can I say? They obviously experienced something I have not. Who am I to tell them they're wrong?

I agree with this, but sadly there are also many examples where belief in religion is destructive. I think it is 7th day adventists, who refuse to have blood transfusions because of something to do with the blood of christ (my apologies if I am quoting the wrong religious group). This is a dangerous health risk, and children die as a result.

As for those that find solace in religion, who are any of us to criticize. This was their choice, and it worked for them. In this sense, god exists. Their belief in god healed them, therefore in their minds god exists.

I always look at the more logical explanation, and remember all those that looked to god/christ with the great promise that man has put in both these entities, only to be let down and feel even worse off then before. Christians are quick to point out, that if god did not heal you, it is because you did not truly believe and/or are a bad christian. If god wanted to heal people because they needed to be healed, why would he allow them to get sick in the first place???? Oh that's where the devil comes in......I forgot!

I always see the problem with religion, when you have characters such as newguy. They are the kind of christians (thank banana only a few of them) who want everyone to blindly follow without exercising the "god given" brain that you have. Don't question, just follow. Mmmmm not for me thankyou.


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El_Machinae
Posted: Jun 11 2010, 07:35 PM


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QUOTE (fredinjeddah @ Jun 11 2010, 05:37 PM)
On one hand you are arguing that you want to expose harmful practices in Christianity, and on the other, you want to disprove Abrahamic conceptions on gods. In what way are Abrahamic conceptions of gods, harmful to society?

Well, the name of the religion helps with my criticism.

All three religions seem to think that God made a promise to some dude, thousands of years ago, about that dude's descendants. And that's created this racist idea that a certain race is the chosen of God, and deserves some special parcel of land. 90% of my international news cycle is focused on the conflict in Israel, and people have aggressions regarding that land that are strictly religious.

More, though, is the breakdown in the understanding of natural history. How many Abrahamics think that the Exodus was real? A huge number. The religion causes confusion about history, and this confusion isn't going away.

Finally, there's the moral implication regarding the worship of a god that demanded human sacrifice. That's just icky.


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fredinjeddah
Posted: Jun 11 2010, 09:14 PM


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QUOTE (El_Machinae @ Jun 11 2010, 07:35 PM)
Well, the name of the religion helps with my criticism.

All three religions seem to think that God made a promise to some dude, thousands of years ago, about that dude's descendants. And that's created this racist idea that a certain race is the chosen of God, and deserves some special parcel of land. 90% of my international news cycle is focused on the conflict in Israel, and people have aggressions regarding that land that are strictly religious.

More, though, is the breakdown in the understanding of natural history. How many Abrahamics think that the Exodus was real? A huge number. The religion causes confusion about history, and this confusion isn't going away.


Of course you are right with your statement, this would seem to be one of the main causes for on going violence amongst certain nations. (although it does not explain others).

However, this behaviour amongst mankind has existed long before all 3 religeons were ever conceived. This is a human trait that has driven our evolution. Religeon is not the cause of this violence, it has become the excuse.

Disproving abrahamic gods does not stop the practice of violence and hatred and the desire for ownership.

I don't think having issues with whether or not there was an exodus and you do or don't believe in it, and the apparent confusion it causes, is an issue big enough to try disprove a religeons belief in god on? Let he that wants to believe, believe, and he who doesn't , dont.

QUOTE
Finally, there's the moral implication regarding the worship of a god that demanded human sacrifice.  That's just icky.
I am not that knowledgeble on the bible, but I do not think any abrahamic god "demanded" human sacrafice. I am familliar with one story only where an old geyser had to take his son to a rock and sacrafice him to prove something to god, but the kid was never sacraficed in the end. I don't think the point of the story was that you should sacfrafice your child to show god your belief in him.

And as far as I know, no such thing was ever asked for again? Don't get me wrong, I think it is a stupid story, but like most stories in the bible, they had to be over dramatic to make a distinct point.

My personal opinion, is that if you want to change peoples perceptions, you do it by living your life in a certain way, so that those that are observing and trying to understand what you are saying (scientifically), do not run a mile , because all you want to do, is disprove their god. If you really have true intentions, stop being so aggressive, you are only hurting your cause.

Of course none of the above applies to newguy, he is fair game, but try not to make blanket statements that people MUST accept god does not exist.


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Goofus A Gallant
Posted: Jun 11 2010, 09:35 PM


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QUOTE (fredinjeddah @ Jun 11 2010, 04:14 PM)
I am not that knowledgeble on the bible, but I do not think any abrahamic god "demanded" human sacrafice. I am familliar with one story only where an old geyser had to take his son to a rock and sacrafice him to prove something to god, but the kid was never sacraficed in the end. I don't think the point of the story was that you should sacfrafice your child to show god your belief in him.

And as far as I know, no such thing was ever asked for again? Don't get me wrong, I think it is a stupid story, but like most stories in the bible, they had to be over dramatic to make a distinct point.

Uh - what about that Jesus dood? Doesn't he count as a human sacrifice?


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Sinister Utopia
Posted: Jun 11 2010, 11:10 PM


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QUOTE (fredinjeddah @ Jun 11 2010, 09:14 PM)
I am not that knowledgeble on the bible, but I do not think any abrahamic god "demanded" human sacrafice. I am familliar with one story only where an old geyser had to take his son to a rock and sacrafice him to prove something to god, but the kid was never sacraficed in the end. I don't think the point of the story was that you should sacfrafice your child to show god your belief in him.

Muslims still celebrate the alleged mortality in demonstrating the willingness to sacrifice ones own child.

BTW, I thought others were sacrificed with no divine reprieve. Do I have that wrong?
And let's not forget all those plagues, floods and smiting incidents.


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El_Machinae
Posted: Jun 11 2010, 11:34 PM


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In 1 Samuel 15, God commands the Israelite soldiers to go kill all the infants of a neighbouring kingdom. Actually, the command was to commit a complete genocide. When the Israelite king didn't kill everyone, God punished him

That's a god that demands human sacrifice.


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fredinjeddah
Posted: Jun 12 2010, 05:15 AM


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QUOTE (Goofus A Gallant @ Jun 11 2010, 09:35 PM)
Uh - what about that Jesus dood? Doesn't he count as a human sacrifice?

I am not sure he can count as god demanding a sacrafice. Of course it seems I am defending the bible, which I aint, I am trying to make a point on how one goes about demonstrating your beliefs to others. Aggressively or passively. I choose the passive route, but then again I am just a woes and everyone is entitled to do as they choose.



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Goofus A Gallant
Posted: Jun 12 2010, 01:24 PM


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QUOTE (fredinjeddah @ Jun 12 2010, 12:15 AM)
I am not sure he can count as god demanding a sacrafice.

Ever heard the expression "Lamb of God"?


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