No Fetus Pain, Full story at http://www.physorg.com/news64202288.html

http://www.physorg.com/news64202288.html

I"m skeptical of this guy"s study. I really don"t think pain is learned, I think it"s hardwired. I"m not sure if this guy saw the expriment done with a glob of neurons. They connected a glod of neurons to a computer through electrodes. Depending on how the neurons fired they would control an avatar in a 3D computer world. Another eletrode connected to the neurons sent feedback in the form of the signal that repersents pain. When the glob controlled avatar hit a wall in the 3D world a pain signal was sent to the glob. Eventually the glob learned where the walls were and avioded them. I think that expirment lends weight to the idea that pain is hardwired into neurons and not subjective.

He doesn't say ppain is "learned" per se. He says the neural circuitry necessary for processing pain can be considered complete by 26 weeks' gestation. I can believe that.

Will this info be used by pro-abortionists..?

These quotes are from the full report.. it can be found at..

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7060/795/a

I am not sure I agree with this, while I can not quote the source, I am very sure I am correct.. unborn babies are being taught while in the womb starting with the second trimester, while at birth they exhibit no special abilities, a vast majority who where consistently taught while in the womb, show marked improvements in developmental learning.. such as being able to read at a 3 or 4th grade level when starting kindergarten, ability to understand and do math.. the whole learning curve for these babies is far beyond what most would define as a normal child.

Is stress not a type of emotion? if so, then how is it 2nd and 3rd trimester babies can and do become stressed when the mother is stressed? this observance is based on physiological evidence.

If this is true, why does a baby (even premature) cry when its smacked on the butt to get it breathing, why are some born crying.. is crying not a condition of pain, what or need with babies?

Interesting notes about learning whilst yet within the womb.
I've read about what an unloving father or a stressful life does to the unborn child... I've also felt it, because that was my birth & family condition.

He [Derbyshire] argues pain experience requires not only development of the brain, but also development of the mind to accommodate the subjectivity of pain.

When you place a live lobster placed in a pan of boiling water I am told that you need to place a lid on the pan to prevent the lobster escaping. IMHO the judgement of pain is only subjective in the mind of the person placing the lobster in the water - the lobster knows EXACTLY how it feels.

IMHO opinion the best (only?) way to even get close to understanding the experience of another sentient being is to place yourself in that situation. If the mind of a 'scientific observer' is in any way undeveloped then their conclusions should not be taken as an indication of a general result.

-C2.

Yes - this will be used for pro-abortion. I wouldn't trust this persons' "scientific contribution". The man is a psychologist for God's sake. It disturbs me that anyone in the scientific community would believe this and give it credibility. There is scientific proof that unborn children do feel pain. Anyone who is pro-abortion will dig under rocks to find "scientific", etc. claims to justify what they really do and want. I pity them....

Maybe you'd best place your pity upon the fetus that got chopped up and sucked out, instead...

My wife had an abortion over 25 years ago... could she have looked after a child and would I have accepted someone else's child?. I think not. Even so, Yfh has described precisely what is in both our minds even after that length of time. I don't think it will ever go away.

If he's saying "mind" develops outside of the womb, then what is he calling the neural correlate of "mind" to which he can substantiate his claims by showing that the neurology isn't developed until after the womb. Also, do we have to have a subjective metacognitive "damn I hurt" experience in order for pain to exist? What about pain reflexes?

Archer: fetuses start receiving and processing neural signals while still in the womb, but not until a certainly level of development is attained. It's not so much 'learning' while in the womb, but the beginnings of differentiation.

However, this stage (of receiving and processing) is quite a bit later than pro-life people believe.

Remember what the bumper stickers say:

Abortion stops a beating.

I think stress is more of physical thing than an emotional thing.

We stress ourselves out every day without even knowing it. It's only when our brain actually starts receiving signals that something is wrong that we start analyzing what we’re doing and starts freaking out - that we “officially” recognize stress.

I believe a baby/fetus does not have that same type of analyzing skills to deduct what’s wrong. It doesn’t know what “I can’t pay rent” means or “daddy is blowing town as soon as I am born” is but it can sense the mom is stressed because of what her body is doing. She’s not just feeding it food but feeding it all sorts of signals which will influence the child to react in the same manner as the mother.

I’d put a good bet also that when you start “training a baby in the womb” that a lot of this positive reflection after the baby is born is due to the mother’s optimistic nature and those signals get sent to the baby. I’d also like to think that if the parent is starting to work that early on developing the child; they don’t slack as soon as the baby is born.

Face it, normal children now are those left in front of the television all the time while mommy and daddy go to work. I’d be above normal if both my parents were intelligent and were pro-active in my education consistently. It’s not a hard concept… it’s just hard for a lot of people to actually do.