symmetrically structured spacetime, SUMMARY OF MY THREADS

Hi C2, yquantum

Thanks…yquantum
I am less than a butterfly spreading the pheromones of an enticing flower. I am making barely a ripple.
I have a blog at http://www.physicsforums.com/blogs/jal-58039/ where the “math kids” can have a whiff of this bouquet.
The waves can only be done by the “math kids.”
I predicted that the quark sea ends at 10^-18. However, to make a prediction would require a “math kid” to understand the parton model and the extraction of the data from the experiments at CERN.
However, the predictions will be controversial because the “old guard” will not want to accept those interpretations.
Who is going to be the Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington for the “math kids”?
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C2
I'm also, looking for hints of experiments that could reveal the structure.
jal

There are a lot of very intelligent "math kids" who have no trouble with assuming that the quantum world could be composed of 2d "nodes".
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http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0708/0708.1317v1.pdf
Functional Renormalization Group Equations,
Asymptotic Safety, and Quantum Einstein Gravity
Martin Reuter and Frank Saueressig
09 Aug 2007
p.53 (Last comment of paper)
A general discussion of the geometrical issues involved (scale dependent diffeomorphisms, symmetries, causal structures, etc.) was given in [27], and in [26] these ideas were applied to show that QEG can generate a minimum length dynamically. In [3, 5] it has been pointed out that the QEG spacetimes should have fractal properties, with a fractal dimension equal to 4 on macroscopic and 2 on microscopic scales. This picture was confirmed by the computation of their spectral dimension in [28]. Quite remarkably, the same dynamical dimensional reduction from 4 to 2 has also been observed in Monte-Carlo simulations using the causal triangulation approach [29, 30, 31]. It is therefore intriguing to speculate that this discrete approach and the gravitational average action actually describe the same underlying theory.
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I’ve looked at his citations
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/hep-th/0508202
Fractal Spacetime Structure in Asymptotically Safe Gravity
Authors: O. Lauscher, M. Reuter
(Submitted on 26 Aug 2005)
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http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0604212
Quantum Gravity, or The Art of Building Spacetime
Authors: J. Ambjorn, J. Jurkiewicz, R. Loll
(Submitted on 28 Apr 2006)
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A summary is at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation

You are aware of the problems of putting an observed measurement (length, area, volume) by hand. (renormalizing) ….It works …. It is not known why…. It also leads to projections that are not possible (example http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0609/0609011v1.pdf
The Cosmological Constant Problem, an Inspiration for New Physics by Stefan Nobbenhuis)

We have uncharted territory QCD. Keeping the length question at Planck Scale does not help in trying to find an answer. (Eventhough it helps in getting a paper published).
The QCD length scale and the dynamics needs to be worked out before assuming that the length scale goes deeper (Planck Scale).
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This paper examines the quark/QCD length scale.
Randall has not been wasting her time because CERN has been delayed. She has been refining her model.
http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.3017
Black Holes and Quantum Gravity at the LHC
Authors: Patrick Meade, Lisa Randall
(Submitted on 22 Aug 2007)

p.15
Deviations from the asymptotic QCD value of 0.6 would indicate new physics.
p.16
No matter what the theory of quantum gravity, the 2→2 scattering cross section might well be the first clue of low-scale quantum gravity and can furthermore yield insight into quantum gravity behavior.
If a string theory description does not apply, one might expect a particle description does.
At smaller energies it is reasonable to expect hard scatterings due to multigraviton exchange.
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Reuter makes a few bold assertions
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0705/0705.1769v1.pdf
It can be shown in general that if a gravitational FP exists, Newton’s constant will have an anomalous dimension equal to two [10],

In this letter we present for the first time evidence that in pure gravity the UV critical surface is finite dimensional.

The most important new result of our calculation is that in all truncations the operators from R3 upwards are irrelevant.

With a finite dimensional critical surface, one can make definite predictions in quantum gravity.
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Did you notice in Lisa Randall's paper at
p. 28 A RS Black Holes
“……..where MPl represents the reduced Planck mass, and rc is the size of the extra dimension……”
She never said what the size of that 2d dimension was.
Do you want to know?

She is working at smaller than proton size. She is working at quark size. > .6 fm
If a quark is interacting with her 2d gravity surface then it must always be in contact with a 2d gravity surface. Now we know that the quark is not standing still. It is always moving. So when it leave/loses contact with one 2d surface there must be another one close by for the quark to be acting with so that there will alwas be gravity.
The closest that the other 2d surface must be is as per the 2d packing rules in 2d and in 3d.
So, no matter where the quark moves there will be gravity associated with it.
That means that the 2d surfaces must all be the same size, no matter where they are.
You cannot think of this membrane as being on the edge of our 3d space it is inside of the 3d space and it must be a quantum size.
Now …. Even if there are no quarks, the structure must still be there. The structure must be everywhere.
If you make a measurement of the gravity induced in a quark then repeat the measurement one sec. later you can be positive that it is not the same 2d surface that has endowed the quark with gravity one second later.
The lab on the earth has moved 300 km in that one second. Therefore, the quark is continuously interacting with a different 2d surfaces.

I think you could calculate the sizes of rc.
Look at my summary to get the pictures that I have made.
Geeee! ….. it wouldn’t surprise me if you came up with 10^-18.
I’ll be looking forward to seeing your paper.
jal
ps. Just include jal in your Acknowledgments
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Here are some citations that you might want to use in your paper.
Of course, You might want to include/read the following paper which argues against having extra dimensions.
Reuter makes a few bold assertions http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0705/0705.1769v1.pdf
It can be shown in general that if a gravitational FP exists, Newton’s constant will have an anomalous dimension equal to two [10],

In this letter we present for the first time evidence that in pure gravity the UV critical surface is finite dimensional.

The most important new result of our calculation is that in all truncations the operators from R3 upwards are irrelevant.

With a finite dimensional critical surface, one can make definite predictions in quantum gravity.
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Proposing an experiment to probe the effects of planck scale is not easy.
I’ll let you decide if you are satisfied with the following proposal and the results of
Mkn 501 Flare Observed by MAGIC
I think that the results would fit with the modifications that I have made to the Lisa Randall Model. ( It would keep the model within R3)
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9605211
Distance Measurement and Wave Dispersion in a Liouville-String Approach to Quantum Gravity
Authors: G. Amelino-Camelia, J. Ellis, N.E. Mavromatos, D.V. Nanopoulos
(Submitted on 29 May 1996)
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http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0605326
Probing Brane-World Scenarios with Vacuum Refraction of Light Using Gamma-Ray Bursts
Authors: Merab Gogberashvili (Tbilisi, Inst. Phys.), Alexander S. Sakharov (CERN & Zurich, ETH), Edward K.G. Sarkisyan (CERN & Manchester U.)
(Submitted on 30 May 2006 (v1), last revised 31 Oct 2006 (this version, v2))
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http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.2889
Probing Quantum Gravity using Photons from a Mkn 501 Flare Observed by MAGIC
Authors: J. Albert, et al., for the MAGIC Collaboration, John Ellis, N.E. Mavromatos, D.V. Nanopoulos, A.S. Sakharov, E.K.G. Sarkisyan
(Submitted on 21 Aug 2007)

We note that the effect found would correspond to subluminal propagation, as suggested by QG models [2, 3].
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I think that we have found evidence of the Quantum Minimum Length Structure (QMLS)
I would say that there is something, a structure of spacetime, and that it is affecting the speed of light.
Now, we need a “math kid” to figure out if the size is 10^-18
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Blog reaction.
SciAm blog by George Musser one of the editors of Scientific American
http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?titl...&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

exerpt from George Musser's post:
"this is one of those "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" situations. But if the high-energy gammas really did lose the cosmic race, we're talking Big Discovery. It could be a way to constrain string theory, loop quantum gravity, and other bleeding-edge theories.

Here is something to help.
There are some interesting calculations in this paper.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0708/0708.2590v1.pdf
Hierarchy Problem, Dilatonic Fifth Force, and Origin of Mass
Y. M. Cho and J. H. Kim
20 Aug 2007
This is precisely the equation which has been proposed to resolve the hierarchy problem [5, 6], which shows that a large v can easily bring GP to the order of the elementary particle scale. Of course, in the popular dimensional reduction in which the (4+n)-dimensional space is treated as physical, the internal space can not assume a large scale because it has to be invisible at present energy scale. For this reason the size has often been assumed to be of the Planck scale, with v = 1 [3, 9, 10]. But we emphasize that a relatively large internal space has not been ruled out theoretically as well as experimentally [7, 13].

This tells that the hierarchy problem is closely related to the problem of the origin of mass. Moreover, this demonstrates that there is another mass generation mechanism other than the Higgs mechanism, a geometric mass generation through the curvature of space-time. Understanding the origin of mass has been a fundamental problem in physics. The geometric mass generation mechanism could provide a natural resolution to this problem.

So Jal,
[removed]

Can the quantum world be understood?
Can we find ways to understand what is happening at the size of the protons and smaller?
Look over the following explanations and you might be able to see the connection with what I have been saying.
http://depts.uwc.edu/math/faculty/kryukov/
Home page of Alexey A. Kryukov
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The EPR experiment: A paradox-free definition of reality,
June 2007
The double-slit experiment: A paradox-free kinematic description,
June 2007
Geometric Derivation of Quantum Uncertainty
Submitted, March 2007
On the Measurement Problem for a Two-Level Quantum System
Found. Phys. 37, Jan. 2007
Quantum Mechanics on Hilbert Manifolds: The Principle of Functional Relativity
Found. Phys. 36 (2006) 175
Linear Algebra and Differential Geometry on Abstract Hilbert Space
Int. Journ. Math. & Math. Sci. 14 (2005) 2241
On the Problem of Emergence of Classical Space–Time: The Quantum-Mechanical Approach
Found. Phys. 34 (2004) 1225
Coordinate Formalism on Hilbert Manifolds
Mathematical Physics Research at the Cutting Edge
(Nova Science, New York, 2004)
The Emergence of the Macroworld: A Study of Intertheory Relations in Classical and Quantum Mechanics (with Malcolm Forster)Philosophy of Science 70 (2003) 1039
Coordinate Formalism on Abstract Hilbert Space: Kinematics of a Quantum Measurement
Found. Phys. 33 (2003) 407
Conformal Transformations of Space-Time as Vector Bundle Automorphisms
PhilSci Archive (2001)
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If you can see the connection with what I have been saying, then you are a "math kid"
Don’t forget the minimum length and the resulting structure.

This post has been edited by jal on Aug 31 2007, 06:02 PM

Hello jal, et al.

What would be the ramifications if the size of the "spot" could be enlarged?

Deformations in spacetime?

Just curious.

Hi Montec
If you mean larger than 10^-15 then we would have noticed it and we would not need to use renormalizing for QFT/QED.
It would leave out QCD and the quarks.
It would not lead to Deformations in spacetime but rather to unobserved physics.
(Not our universe)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renormalization
Renormalization
jal

MYSTERIES OF MINIMUM LENGTH REVEALED

Why would you refuse to look into the relationship that could be revealed by applying minimum length to a quantum structure?

That is why we need the table of diameter, surface area, and number of nodes/particles.
http://www.rkm.com.au/CALCULATORS/CALCULAT...cle-sphere.html
GEOMETRY: CIRCLE & SPHERE
How to use the program.
Enter an even number for the surface area and it gives you the diameter (planck length = minimum length)
Diameter ……………….surface area … # of nodes

0.7978845608028654 …………. 2 ………………1
0.9772050238058398 …………. 3 ………………1
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This is the first thing that becomes obvious. A surface area of less than 4 units produces a diameter that is less than the minimum length.
1.1283791670955125 …………. 4 ………………1
The smallest diameter that a sphere can have is 1.1283791670955125 planck length and with a node/particle that is a planck length in size.
The smallest surface area that a sphere can have is 4 planck length.

1. This is the first mistery that is resolved.
You cannot have a structure that is made up of minimum length and have all of the mesurements equal to minimum length.

2. The second mistery that is resolved is
Why is entropy = information = A/4
There is a total area of 4 and only one node/particle that can exist to transmit information.

Why is there only one node/particle on that surface?
There is room for another planck size node/particle at the other pole (other side of the sphere).
Okay! Let’s occupy/fill that position with a node/particle.

3. Third mistery solved.
By filling the second position with a node/particle you are preventing any kind of motion.
(Explain how those two nodes/particles can move without violation the minimum length.)
Until we get to doing dynamics (how things can move) with a model, we must stay with 4 planck lengths for every node/particle on the sphere.
Therefore, for every node/particles we need to have 3 empty nodes (planck lengths)
You have also, discovered another relationship.

4. The reason for uncertainty at the quantum level.
The node/particle can occupy either one of those two position and there is no way of being able to determine which of those two position that the node/particle happens to be occupying.

Do you want to continue with the table and discover more relationships?


We know that we need 3 empty nodes for every node/particle but I will do the table for every unit increase of surface area up to 13.

We will need a model that we can use/analyze when we explore the transfer of information.

Diameter ……………….surface area … # of nodes/particles
0.7978845608028654 …………. 2 ………………1
0.9772050238058398 …………. 3 ………………1
1.1283791670955125 ………. 4 ……………1
1.2615662610100801 …………. 5 ……………… ?
1.381976597885342 …………… 6 ……………. ?
1.4927053303604616 …………. 7 ……………. ?
1.5957691216057308 ……. 8 ……………. 2
1.692568750643269 ………….. 9 ……………. ?
1.7841241161527712 ………… 10 …………… ?
1.8712051592547776 ………… 11 …………… ?
1.9544100476116797 …… 12 …………… 3
2.0342144725641096 ………… 13 …………… ?
and here is
2.763953195770684 ………….. 24 ……………. 6
3.9088200952233594 ……….. 48 …………… 12

5. Mystery solved. Did you know that when studying black holes that the number of nodes/particles that are used is 6 and that represent 3d?
6. The minimums for a black hole are 2.763953195770684 ………….. 24 ……………. 6
7. Did you know that when they study the big bang that they have discovered that there is no singularity? There is a bounce. the bounce occures at 24 planck units. This just happens to be the surface area of a 2d sphere that contains 6 nodes/particles.

8. minimum length give a cut off for the spectrum without doing anything.

Not too bad ...... 8 mysteries solved already.... and we have not even made a model.
Perhaps TRoc can develop the relationship that has been revealed in the growth of the diameter and the # of nodes/particles from a surface area of 4 to a surfacer area of 12 units.
(TRoc take sloooow steps. We got 12 year olds following this discussion)

Questions?
Discussion?
Don’t jump a step by saying that we can combine/fuse/reduce empty nodes if we join a lot of spheres together. We still do not have a model.
jal

This post has been edited by jal on Sep 12 2007, 04:02 PM

Darn I missed the edit time and missed the most obvious mystery that has been revealed.
9. Gravity cannot go to a minimum of one unit (planck length)

10. Minimum length imposes a structure. The challenge is to find the model that is reflecting our observations. Remember, minimum length would apply to ALL models including models with extra dimensions and the structure inside those dimensions.
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The “math kids” will want to be aware of/ and bookmark the following
http://indico.cern.ch/conferenceDisplay.py?confId=19188
New Physics and the LHC
You should also read up on what L. Randall presented
http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?co...mp;confId=19188
Black holes and Quantum Gravity at CERN
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Also,
http://indico.cern.ch/getFile.py/access?co...mp;confId=19188
Peeking into a Hidden Valley: A First Look at Exotic Phenomenology
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A good blog from a particle physist at CERN called RESONAANCES is by Jester
http://resonaances.blogspot.com/2007/09/dr...hy-problem.html

Nobody knows the quantum maximum or minimum lengths but there are scientists who are doing experiments that can give us a better range of where are those distances.
Bookmark, Xiao-Gang Wen and do a search on the work that he is doing.
He is looking for the Quantum Minimum Length Structure.


http://dao.mit.edu/~wen/
Quantum field theory of many-body systems
Xiao-Gang Wen
Chapter 8
Topological and Quantum Order – Beyond Landau’s Theories
The concept of topological/quantum order allows us to have a new classification of orders. A quantum order is simply a non-symmetry breaking order in a quantum system, and a topological order is simply a quantum order with finite energy gap.

Look at his java dance of electrons. I don’t know how he set up his program. Set e to 12 and slow the speed and you will see that there is a preferred dance of triplet.
http://dao.mit.edu/~wen/java/dance/dance.html
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You can do like me ... get ideas of where to look for information and pursue the trail. This forum will not give you the answers.
jal

X4 is an imaginary coordinate.........
how it can describe time .....
might be time as humans experience do not exists
might be time is only duration of events that run into space.....?

Everybody loves a good science fiction story.

In the beginning, some 15 billion years ago, there was a terrible event that changed the peaceful existence of what we call quarks.
In those old bygone days, the quarks filled the whole universe with their slow moving dance. There is no way of knowing for sure what their life was like. They were the only living thing in the universe.

In those days quarks were not those tiny, 10^-15 spinning particles hiding behind an energy screen that we call protons and neutrons. By our reckoning, it took only 300,000 years for all of the quarks to hide in the protons.

What was it that caused this change? Was it their environment?
What could have possibly happened to make the quarks shrink to their present size and leave the universe empty? Even to this day, quarks will not venture out from their hiding places.
Quarks are very long lived. As long as their spinning configuration in the proton is not breached they could live forever.
I wonder, if the quarks that are seen in the neutrons are degenerate protons? Are they on their last breath of existence? Have they given up hope of a return to their previous life?
Or, perhaps, they are sacrificing themselves so that the protons can have sustenance: Sacrificing themselves for the greater good.

That terrible event that changed everything for the quarks made it possible for the evolution of life as we know it.

Thinking from our perspective maybe all wrong. It could also be that those 10^80 particles are just part of a greater whole. Those 10^80 particles could be just a few tourist enjoying a brief moment of spinning existence within a sphere of energy that we call protons and neutrons.

If we could, would it be a good idea to reproduce the conditions that would entice the quarks to return to their former size and existence? Let us not forget that we are parasites that have evolved from the present state/condition of the quarks. Would we be releasing an alien presence into our midst that would cascade into a totally alien universe that is not favorable to life as we know it?
What would be our last memory?
A blast of radiation? ……… A sucking sound? ………..
……… to be continued ………. (by the readers)