LHC danger, Full story at http://www.physorg.com/news10589.html

It was all a big bluff, but now we HAVE to turn LHC on to prove ubavontuba and Walter Wagner wrong.

And all because they claimed a physics disaster without constructing a physics model that covered the problem domain.

They tell us that:

• Physicists are right about quantum theory and special relativity and Quantum Field Theory and Quantum Chromodynamics, and the existance of quarks. (p=1)
• They tell us that they believe in large extra dimensions, which is a conjecture based on quantum field theory and some assumptions (p=0.05)
• The tell us that the LHC is going to create black holes with the property that they don't decay without telling us why they don't decay or where all other attempts to merge quantum theory and GR have failed to show that black holes don't decay (p=10^-9)
• They tell us that the such black holes are dangerous to Earth in the short term (less than 5 billion years) (p=0)
• They tell us that the LHC is uniquely dangerous to Earth, despite the observation that if they are right, a gas of non-decaying black holes must permeate this galaxy (p=0)

Your milage might vary.

I fear your wit may be wasted on its target audience.

Apparently, you still couldn't come up with a relevant argument!

So what, you think you can win the day through personal attacks? Are you a politician?

I'm responding only to the relevant portions of your post.

Oh my, there aren't any!

This post has been edited by ubavontuba on Mar 3 2008, 04:47 AM

Witty, but weak.

I tell people it might be dangerous, not that it is dangerous. The stakes are too high to be taking unnecessary risks.

Sure. Don't you believe these models have value too?

When did I say that?

I have shown where a possible error lies. Did you miss it?

Possibly.

It does, it's called dark matter. There's even been observed dark matter galaxies where there's enough hydrogen to create hundreds of millions... even billions of ordinary stars, and yet none exist. Do you think maybe the dark matter eats them?

Rpenner, you disappoint me. I thought you were too smart for these lame Trippy-like personal attacks. I see now that I was wrong. You should be ashamed.

This post has been edited by ubavontuba on Mar 3 2008, 05:31 AM

Aside from the part wher eit's been explained to you, repeatedly, that a boltzman gas of blackholes does not fit the properties of dark matter.

Moreover, if your speculations were remotely accurate, then the earth would have been destroyed by now, because the earth would have encountered such a black hole with a velocity less then the earths escape velocity (in spite of your protestations otherwise).

When did I say it is?

No, it wouldn't. That's like saying of the myriad moons of Jupiter, at least one would've landed gracefully on the earth and been at rest on its surface, sometime in the history of the solar system. Orbital dynamics don't work that way.

By the way, why isn't the reverse readily apparent? Does ordinary matter match velocities with dark matter particles? Why are dark matter halos so dark? What happens to the stars that wander into them?

Look at Rpenner's references from the other thread?. Do you see the dark matter regions? Why are they dark? What happened to the ordinary matter that should've been apparent in these regions?

This post has been edited by ubavontuba on Mar 3 2008, 07:09 AM

Right here.

Still haven't figure out what a Boltzmann Gas is have ya?

It does, it's called dark matter. There's even been observed dark matter galaxies where there's enough hydrogen to create hundreds of millions... even billions of ordinary stars, and yet none exist. Do you think maybe the dark matter eats them?

This post has been edited by Trippy on Mar 3 2008, 07:57 AM

Yeah it would, you're wrong.

The rest of this is largely incoherrent, and I'm not going to bother trying to bend my brain around it.

Just to prove how patently ridiculous your (Ubavontubas) assertions are, using v_p=√(2kt/m) and rearranging it to solve for t, we can show that for a boltzmann gas of 14 TeV blackholes in order to have a most probable velocity of 11,000 m/s, they must have a t of 1.8*10^24 kelvin (using m=14 TeV, and k=8.617 * 10^−5 eV/k).

To put this in perspective, Silicon burning in the cores of stars begins at 2.7-3.5x10^9 kelvin.

IN order to have a most probable velocity of 0.9999c (which would, by definition, rule this boltzmann gas out as COLD dark matter) the gas would have to have a temperature of 7.31*10^33 k.

Even at this temperature, we could expect (using the Boltzmann distribution) 1x10^-15 % of these blackholes to have a velocity of 11000 m/s (I'd calculate velocity of that and less, but I really don't feel like trying to integrate the Boltzmann distribution to determine the area of the graph).

Given that Dark Matter is supposed to account for 90% of the mass of the universe, it would not seem unreasaonable to assume that for every 14 TeV Proton hitting the earth, there are 9 14 TeV Blackholes. Given that 14 TeV protons strike the earth, approximately 4 times/m^2/hr, then it would not seem unreasonable to assume that 14 TeV blackholes strike the earth 36 times /m^2/hr.

Given that the Earth has a surface area of 5.1*10^14 m^2, we can safely conclude that the earth gets struck by 1.836*10^16 14 TeV Blackholes per hour, which equates to 7.24x10^29 14 TeV Blackholes over the lifetime of the earth.

Of which, 1*10^-15 %, or 7.323*10^12 of them had a velocity of 11000 m/s.

Assuming that, as you say, Dark Matter is made up of a gas of blackholes with a thermal (boltzmann) distribution of their velocities, and that gas is of a temperature such that it gives rise to a most probable velocity of 0.9999c, then over the life time of the earth, we can expect it to have been struck by more then 7,323,000,000,000 (seven thousand, three hundred and twenty three billion) 14 TeV blackholes with a velocity of less then the earths escape velocity.

And yet we're still here.

Conclusion? Ubavontuba's assertions around the nature of dark matter, and/or the danger of such blackholes is in error.

(in fact, even if they accumulated and mergered, this equates to a 10μg Blackhole sitting in the earths core - and yet we're still here).

It occurs to me that to an excellent approximation, the Boltzman Distribution should be able to be considered linear over the intreval 0=< v =<11,000 with 0=< f(v) =< 1.011*10^-17 (Where f(v) represents the Boltzmann distribution).

This meand that we can calculate the inegral as being 5.56*10^-12% of these 14 TeV Blackholes having velocities of 11,000 m/s or less - meaning the earth should have encountered 4*10^16 of these 14 TeV black holes, travelling equal to, or less than the earths escape velocity (which, if they all merger, equates to a 1mg blackhole floating around inside the earth).

Hi Trippy

The LHC experiments involve colliding two 7 TeV protons together giving a total COM collision energy of some 14 TeV. However two 7 TeV protons colliding head on is NOT equivalent to a 14 TeV proton colliding with a stationary one in terms of total collision energy in the COM frame.

Off the top of my head the LHC proton collisions are equivalent to about a 100,000 TeV proton colliding with a stationary proton in terms of COM collision energy.

Furthermore, LHC also has the ability to collide lead ions at a total COM collision energy of 1150 TeV which is equivalent to something like a 500 EeV cosmic ray colliding with a stationary proton. Cosmic rays with energies of this magnitude are exceedingly rare, (the most energetic cosmic ray observed had an energy of something like 300 EeV).

Doesn't matter.

My point remains the same.

That's still about 100,000/km^2/Yr.
That's still 2.295 x10^23 collisions over the life time of the earth (so far)
That's still a temp of 5.22x10^37 k.
That's still a probability of 2.355x10^-4%
That's still 5.4x10^17 100,000 TeV black holes that the earth has met in its lifetime.

Also note that I was comparing 14 TeV Protons to 14 TeV Blackholes.

My point remains the same.

Let's see that again:

It does, it's called dark matter. There's even been observed dark matter galaxies where there's enough hydrogen to create hundreds of millions... even billions of ordinary stars, and yet none exist. Do you think maybe the dark matter eats them?

Well, there's rpenner calling it a gas (but not specifically a Boltzmann gas), but not me.

You do know that even gaseous matter in space must follow the laws of motion and conservation, right?

This post has been edited by ubavontuba on Mar 4 2008, 06:40 AM