The edge of the universe, What defines it?

Some of the current theories - most probably the predominant one - say that the Universe is a universe that is like an expanding balloon. Outside this balloon nothing exists.

Personally in my opinion this is almost as short sighted as the geocentric view of universe that we used to have - but that is not my question.

For those who do prescribe to this theory I was just thinking... If light travels faster than the furthest objects then the earliest light would describe the edges of our so called expanding universe. Is that correct?

Maybe the edge of the universe travels at the speed of light in all directions like a perfect sphere?

If either of those were the case then the furthest objects in our universe would only be a fraction of the way to the edge of existance as light can travel a phenomenal distance relative to those objects.

What are your speculations on this matter?

By the Aether Wave Theory the Aether realizes the environment for evolution of complexity waves, the gravity waves are special case of it. Due the compactification of space a total reflection of gravity waves occurs, whenever the certain curvature is reached. After than, a new spacetime evolution begins from scratch.

By my opinion the Universe just makes itself more dense, such expansion has nothing to do with speed of the light.

the universe is bigger than the visible universe.. current theories put it about a Gogol (10^100)bigger. if you headed east for 13.5 billion light years you would be at the center of another light cone 13.5 billions years across.. well if you got there quickly. ALso from our perspective, due to the expansion of the universe galaxies on the edge of the viewable universe are receding from us faster than the speed of light.

The edge of our universe = the beginning of time.

What?

.....10^100 how did you arrive at that?

As for faster than light, this is just inferred due to incomplete understanding.

when we use Riemann geometry to describe universal space, universe is finite, when we use Euclid geometry universe is infinite

in math term infinite is not a metric term:
infinite distance + 1000 miles = infinite distance

see more: . Sorli A. (2004). Space And Matter. Journal of Theoretics. Vol. 6-3
http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/6-3/SM.pdf


we will never know how big is the universe, we experience universe into "mind-time frame" that is the part of the mind


amrit

fivedougnhut: The edge of our universe = the beginning of time.

time is motion and motion has no beginnig, universe is a system in a dynamic equilibrium, eternal, god has lost the job here, no creation

Amrit, Does your stupidity have no bounds!!!!

If motion has no beginning, HOW DID IT START MOVING?????

The only one who is out of a job is you!!!! You should go sell vegetables!!!!

Amrit, Does your stupidity have no bounds!!!!

If motion has no beginning, HOW DID IT START MOVING?????

The only one who is out of a job is you!!!! You should go sell vegetables!!!!

Sounds like prostitution

Well, the frontiers hypothesis development appears like the complexity phase transition, similar to the boiling - at first come uncertain metaphysical ideas / rumors occurs with no connection to the current causality mechanisms (i.e. no proofs, no obvious reasons), after than more concrete ideas are appearing, which are formalized using the math into the final theory.

It means, not all Amrit ideas are necessarily wrong, they just lacking proofs, at times.

motion doesnt need a beginning as all states of constant motion can also be concidered at rest.. time dosnt need a beginning, just like the south pole doent need a beginning. And Amrit doesnt need a vegitable cart.
Even if you dont agree no need to call names. Attack the science not the person.

the 10^100 size of the universe is just a number i read in an article here..
It IS known though the universe is much larger than our light cone of 13.5 billion light years. I should point out that things beyond our light cone are beyond our causality. Meaning the entire rest of the universe could be destroyed and we would never know as the light from the explotion would be so far away that it would never reach us no matter how long the universe lasted. (light can be read as information in this case as the speed of light has less to do with the speed of light then the speed limit of the universe in a vaccuum, it just so happens light goes that speed so we call it the speed of light)

the faster than light is not a lack of understanding but measured and provened but is due to the expansion of the universe and doesnt break the cosmic speed limit. (no way to use the expansion of the universe to send a messages at those great distances). Lets say you are driving a convoy in the expanding universe. You are all traveling the same speed but you notice the car in front of you expanding away from you at 1 mile per hour.. He isnt speeding up.. the universe is getting larger. then you notice the car in front of him is expanding away from him at 1 mile per hour, from your perspective that car is receding from you at 2 miles per hour and receding from the car in front of you at only 1 mile per hour. Now imaginge your convo is 700.000,000 cars long. The last car would be traveling greater than the speed of light with respect to you without once hitting the gas. You cant use the expansion of space as a way convey information, so no laws broke and things far enough away to be out of causality range can travel at speeds faste than light. Light on the edge of the universe is so stretched into xrays that it must be receding faster than light. BY any definition if th universe stretches even 1 inch every 10,000 earth years then the horizon of our light cone absolutely possitively must be traveling at greater than the speed of light.. since the cone of light is expanding at the speed of light any expansion adds to it.

quit calling people names you morons.

The size of Universe has a certain meaning both in my Aether wave theory, both in Heim's theory, where is derived as the minimal and maximal space curvature ratio. The meaning of quantity is understandable with respect of universe evolution proposed, during this a spontaneous symmetry breaking occurs in periodical embedded bubbles. The ratio of the smallest energy fluctuation (i.e. the graviton Planck scale 10-35 m) and the maximal size of Universe, to which leads its subsequent compactification can be considered to be a the natural measure of Universe.



Interesting enough, the human scale (i.e. 1 meter) corresponds the middle of the energy scale as the indicia of the complexity density / energy density duality.

If motion has no beginning, HOW DID IT START MOVING?????

the idea of the beginning of motion and of the universe needs some god to start it, as god was not found yet, i think there was simply no beginning, universe is eternal,
actually the idea is implicated into the first law of thermodynamics: energy can not be created and not destroyed
and we all know that energy is not still, energy is moving: photons are moving, planets are moving, all in the universe is moving, nothing is still, motion itself is time (motion = time)
only your mind is stucked on some "idea of creation, of beginning"
so have good vegetable lunch and meditate over

amrit

Amrit, Does your stupidity have no bounds!!!!
I do not know, but for sure your intelligence has it

Hi gonegahgah, amrit, Zephir, JoulesBeef, fivedoughnut et al,

I think as as JoulesBeef has said stop calling each other names.

I think gonegahgah already knows the answer...

This could be very close to the truth. In actual fact a little "thinky" about this matter reveals that we live in a closed space. Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) suggests that the Universe is indeed a closed multiply connected dodecahedral toroidally connected space in three dimensions plus time. This means that there are a number of "foliations" separating various areas of space-time from each other but there is no way or place to reach "the edge of the Universe". Within those "foliations" each one is a toroidally connected space, exiting one "edge" of the dodecahedron simply returns us to one of the other "sides" of the mapping. The edge of the Universe is always "closer than your nose" but you can't reach it from here. Like a "bug" confined to wander the two dimensional inside of an hugely inflated balloon looking for a "door" to show the way out, we too are confined to three dimensional space plus time. The bug is "always" very close to the outside but he cannot see it because he is a two dimensional bug, he would need to understand three dimensions to see his dilemma. We are three dimensional "bugs" with exactly the same mindset problem. Any attempt to travel in a straight line in one direction "forever" will continually bring you back to the one "spot" each time with a twist (rotation) through a number of radians depending on the topology. This is not my theory here, it is the best interpretation of the data from WMAP.

The brane of our Universe is "exceedingly" close to our position in "hyperspace" all the time. There are more dimensions (some of them "local"). Please look at my posts here...
The Structure of Dimensions Good Elf
Read forward in this thread till you pick up the rather long full argument I have placed there. Careful consideration will indicate that our Universe is probably not the only one. There are probably uncountably many Universes if you consider the limitation we have to observation.

The brane of our Universe may not be a barrier that cannot be penetrated and it may be accessible to our "cleaver" descendants. Of course they will need open minds ... much more open than many that frequent this Forum or indeed the Hallowed Halls of some Universities. What you will read there in that thread is that the "edge of the Universe" is indeed a light-cone and it has some "character" that needs to be understood. It is all there for those who want to know. No "particle" can pass this barrier, but then again... if you read the article and the references... we are not "particle", there are frames that may let us pass but only for "true believers" in Einstein's Theories.

The edge of our Universe spins at the speed of light... the 3D + T brane can only spin in one plane but the higher dimensions can spin in three simultaneous planes at once without "disturbance" or "disruption". This property requires more dimensions and a belief in this will be a greater barrier than even those mentioned so far... It is also the main reason for "the quanta".

Cheers

hi Good Elf

OK let's say WMAP represents universe as is is: finite.
But does this finite universe has a beginning.
I think no.
Most of scientist experience universe into the "mind-time frame" that has a linear shape.
They see time as a straight line, on the left infinite into past, on the right infinite into future
so they see every movement into this mental picture, and sure motion needs beginning and end

according to my understanding in the universe is a self-renewing system in a dynamic equilibrium, no beginning, no end
energy circulates constantly: space - matter - space - matter - space
black holes......big explosions into AGN....... Black holes...........

amrit

Yes, the beginning of the Universe motion is unsolved problem. But the God hypothesis is similar like the God hypothesis od lightning (i.e. lightning = God's Messenger) before 400+ years. It simply unsolved problem and the God is always possible final solution - but not before.

As the God is eternal by its definition, the trivial conjecture, the motion has no beginning is equivalent of the God hypothesis. It simply says, we know anything about it. I believe, if some hypothesis gives an infinite prediction, it just a aproximation of some deeper reality.