911 WTC - Evidence of an Nuclear explosion?, Your advice & Input Required

Here we have a new of WTC 6, from this angle we can see exactly how precise those "cuts" to the beams to left really are...and a sense of how this made the structure fall in upon itself through the angle of those beams relative to each other. That's not to mention the rest of the picture.

WTC 6


Link to file:
http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wtc6normal7rz.jpg



Enhanced View of WTC 6


Link to file:
http://img158.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wtc6enhanced8wg.jpg

This is my first post here after lurking for quite some time now. I apologize for its unwieldy content upfront.


Although I've read most of this thread, I might have missed information pertaining to the use of thermite on key support columns. This could explain the molten steel and >2800F temps measured in some of the basement hot spots even weeks after the collapses. Since only 50% of the WTC towers were actually rented out in recent times, it could be very possible to place thermite charges at critical structural support points in both the unoccupied floors and the basement levels. This is assuming that the impending attacks where expected and there was time to prepare the scene, of course.


From an operational standpoint, access to various points in the WTC complex would be at best, a mere nuisance since the volume of contractors working in the towers and other complex buildings could easily smuggle in material such as thermite in paint cans, for example. We need to remember that there would be such a high volume of contract work being performed in the buildings as tenants were constantly moving in and out over the years that security would not likely examine every shipment brought in by such contractors. I can attest to such lax measures first-hand, as I had previously spent years in the building trades.


The manpower necessary to enact the collapses would be easy if with all of the resulting confusion of evacuations and such. There were so many first responder personnel present that any number of conspirees could have gained access wearing port authority credentials or firemen's equipment. These are the only types of people who would not be questioned upon entering the buildings. I know, a lot of conjecture but we (a collective WE) just need to figure out how it could have been done. That it was executed makes it possible to recreate events with some accuracy.


Does anyone happen to know what floor was shown in the collapse videos in which the windows all blew out? It was not even close to the collapsing floors above which still had windows intact, so overpressure would not be a plausible consideration. I'd be willing to bet a paycheck that that particular floor was vacant at that time. I'd love to see the contractor list for the prior two months on that tower but they were probably kept onsite but destroyed in the collapses.


We are asked to be the official account of what happened that day and suspend our disbelief that several buildings could have fallen somewhat neatly within their own footprints from various causes- fire damage being the primary one.


Again, I apologize for the length of this post.

Let's look at thermite:

A thermite reaction is normally an aluminothermic reaction, however, other reactant metals can be used although they can be slightly more unstable. It also provides a broader temperature range between its melting point and boiling point. This can push temperatures to over 2500C, if the heat can radiate freely. It takes intense heat to begin the reaction, such as that provided by magnesium and other exothermic reactions.

Some people think that the aluminium from the planes ignited a thermite reaction. This is impossible, a thermite reaction needs a mixture in specific ratios. Its rather like baking, you can't fire the ingredients together at 400 mph and end up with a wedding cake.

So, when this stuff ignites we have chemical fire, a pool of liquid. This property would tend to rule out attaching such a device to a struss from the underside. Instead we would need to drill a hole or create a small pit in the concrete flooring above, so that the gravity would take the burning reactants through the steel.

To get at the central colums, we would need to create bore holes and once again pack it full of chemical reactants.

The problems fall into several catagories:

1. Logistics
To cause wide spread failure of the strusses, without knowing exactly where the plane will impact (novice pilots) that would require drilling holes across numerous floors. Given that the first impact hit the 93rd-98th floors and the second the 78th-84th, then we can see that this would require at least 30 floors to have been prepared, each an acre in size.

How do you get that much thermite into the building undetected?

That's a lot of paint tins, several thousand at least.



2. Nature of Chemical reactions
Timing was a critical factor in the WTC collapse. Every time I watched the WTC collapse, I felt there was something odd about it, but I could not put my finger on it.

Was it to fast, was it to slow? Neither of those answers fitted, then it struck me. It was perfect, it was at a near uniform rate. When an object falls, it accelerates by around 22mph for every second it is falling, not considering drag. The WTC did not accelerate in a normal fashion as it collapsed, that means the 4.5 second difference between gravity and the collapse itself was pretty evenly spaced at between 0.02-0.06 seconds per floor.

Chemical reactions, especially exothermic reactions outside a lab, are extremely difficult to time. External factors such as moisture, dust, heat transfer, etc, all play a role in controlling the rate of the reaction. For the apparant split second timing to cause the pancaking effect, a chemical-based exothermic reaction would be unlikely, it cannot be controlled in that manner.

When the aircraft stikes the building, you risk devices being ignited prematurely, resulting in partial collapses and the elimination of more devices. High explosive such as C4, whilst they will burn, will not usually detonate.


3. Command and Control
There are 3 main methods of ignition:

1. Timers
2. Cabling
3. Radio

Cabling is too bulky to go unnoticed, radio is useless as the signal degrades due to falling rubble leaving undetonated devices. That leaves timers, which add bulk to the device and require a power source. Given the status of the WTC, it is likely the sweeps for bugs were common enough and a power source could show up.


4. Physical factors
With a pool of hot liquid anywhere up to 2500C (4500F), the chances for it to explode the concrete in which it is contained is very high. This would cause the liquid to pour onto the floor below, rather than melt through the steel.

To take out the core, as seen in the diagram below, would require a lot of thermite, next to the central colums, on numerous floor. That requires extensive drilling and tunneling.

It is speculated that the crash resulted in the loss of 20 out of 47 columns in WTC 1 and some 5 out of 47 columns in WTC 2. However, this does not explain the pancaking effect.



This is just a brief list of the problems I can see and that alone would be enough for me to consider a alternative stratagy.

I would be asking to get caught using this method.

There are two basic scenarios:

1. The devices were planted on the day of the attack.
2. The devices were present some time before the attack.

In both scenarios we are seeking high energy delivery, with a miminal footprint. This makes both installation and detection avoidance easier. We are then looking for isolated locations that provide access to key positions.

Gaining access, even with equipment, is not as difficult as it may seem. Materials can be concealed in all sorts of manners and particularly with uncommon weapon forms may be mistaken for innocent items.

For example, a small oxygen tank may be used for a bit of spot welding, however, it could also be used as an accelerant to deform steel...

There is also a possibility that the railway was used for access/exit. Exiting the building is easy if you are progressing upwards through the building planting devices. You just throw a rope down the express elevator shaft, you'll be out in a matter of minutes, even if you were forced to take a detour due to obstruction.

The difficulty is that there are so many plausible ways of gaining access, especially, on the morning of the incident. This is certainly not the problem area, just the practical limitiations that would provide.

I was just looking at the video, it would appear to be somewhere around the 68th floor. It looks like floors 60-73 were unoccupied in the South Tower.

Right Click --> Save As:
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/vi...r_collapse.mpeg

Here are tenant lists:

North Tower (WTC 1)
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade...r/tenants1.html

South Tower (WTC 2)
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade...r/tenants2.html

WTC 4
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade...r/tenants4.html

WTC 5
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade...r/tenants5.html

WTC 6 (add CIA to this list)
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade...r/tenants6.html

WTC 7
http://edition.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade...r/tenants7.html

Especially when it is not the first time a plane has hit a skyscraper...

July 28, 1945 - Army Air Corps B-25 bomber crashed into the 79th floor of the Empire State Building. Fourteen people died and $1 million damage was done to the building.



For more info, follow this link:
http://www.infoplease.com/askeds/9-21-99askeds.html


And when it is supposed to have detroyed this...

MMC,

Thanks for the in-depth reply. I think that I'm onto something as far as taking advantage of the vacant floors, although I can understand the complexity of a thermite/thermate type reaction.

So, besides the apparent squibs indicated by various videos and pics, that would leave some type of small fusion device necessary to generate the intense heat that could melt structural steel and iron. Portable and relatively safe to handle yet easy and reliable to detonate. To me, it would have to be located solely in the basement area because a sudden release of such intense heat would surely break windows on many floors which would be evident in photographic and video footage. Is there currently anything out there that can generate these temps yet be relatively predictable and stable? If so, how does the fusion process start?

I believe that the premise of foreknowledge of the attacks is valid since there are instances of possible tipoffs or communications interceptions. Immediately, it comes to mind of the FBI informant who actually rented out his apartment to two of the 9/11 hijackers in 2000. FBI informants do not usually retire, if you understand my meaning. There are no public records of interviews with this man after the attacks. Even the 9/11 Commission did not have access to such information (audiotape) as it was supposedly destroyed. How convienient...

I don't mean to throw this thread off of the physics aspect of the events that day but I probably cannot offer any valuable insights on the molecular level. Without getting into personal credentials, I can say that I am geared more towards an operations type analysis. Thanks for your time.

You may well be on to something, empty floors would be the logical choice. In saying this, we are assuming that the planes did not strike specific floors to eliminate specific companies. Its unlikely, but a possiblity that cannot be discounted. I looked into this a bit and the companies and their key competitors make for interesting reading, as well as the background info on the WTC itself.

Here is a floor-by-floor diagram with tenant lists for both buildings:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in...owers/north.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in...owers/south.stm

One thing that will stick out, is the different floors that are said to be effected:

93rd-98th - 95th-103rd
78th-84th - 82nd-93rd

According to the BBC diagram we have floors 64-76 available in the North tower and floors 75-77 available in the South tower.

When you put the fact of the oxidation found in Cortland Street, the fact the floors were not rented, the botched demolition of WTC6, the later demolition of WTC7, who could grant access to those floors, who could bypass security, who would benefit financially,...etc..etc..

...then we can see the beginning of a vague trail developing...

Actually, I would place the devices somewhere just under where the plane went in, right down to the 15th floor or so...

This would remove a lot of energy from the collapse and allow the building to collapse in a more controlled manner. By blowing out the basement, it would then fall into a self-contained pit.

There are such devices, they normally stem from unwanted systems used during the development of fusion.

See this link for information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_%28physics%29

Plasma temperatures can range between ~0 K to 10^8 K, that's sufficient to take out an area around 30m in diameter. That's around the size of the core and all you would need is at maximum 9 of them to reach the ground, or 6 or 7 ending at floors 15-20.

The instant heat would explode the surrounding concrete, turn the metal to burning jelly and initiate the collapse. This allows each floor to give way in 0.02 seconds and assists in mimicing gravity. The loss of the core also keeps it in it own footprint.

The devices themselves are completely destroyed in the initial event.

...and key politicians being warned not to fly...

As for creating a fusor, well I had a search of the web to see what was already available on this. I found something interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnsworth-Hirsch_Fusor

Its not a giant leap from this, to producing vast quantities of heat, even if it can't break-even, given the power available at the WTC, that would really matter.

...so such a device is within the capability of an amateur...however, using it to drop a building, within its own footprint, is not.


I also found this quote:

http://www.innovations-report.com/html/rep...port-54927.html

Again, another technique of limiting neutrons and producing increased levels of tritium...

well we still goin on about this still Russia has lost =lost 13 briefcases of nuke payloads these would be enough to do the job but I'm not sure about the fallout and what type of bomb they were made of.
also the whole thing does need all scientists to be aware i dint trust any government all the latest wars like Vietnam an stuff was the body counts and the risk to show others how far they would pursue the enemy with your people behind them.
umm to say America would not use their own people for self interests of the military is a serious joke hell America would nuke Australia if America saw Australia taken over an the chance the enemy who ever had a chance to hit America at all.
never under estimate the military an democratic drive to convince all that it was someone else did this too us same as in physics dont let normal scientific studies be pushed aside as we all know if you pursue it long enough many things taken for granted in science has been rewritten-so go check it all out dont fall under we all know you dont its the beginning of the end of democracy = seriously

The following photos, including some not posted, can be found here in larger form:

http://www.zombietime.com/wtc_9-13-2001/

These photos were taken on the 13th Sept. 2001, two days after the attacks. These pictures give a very good overview of the scale of destruction.

As you will see, the towers were obliterated.


Before 911 (construction phase)






After 911....

Overview West



Overview East



Overview North West



Overview North



North Tower



WTC Site Overview



WTC Site West Overview



WTC Financial Sector



WTC Center



WTC 6, WTC 5 and Smoke from Underground Fires



Smoke covering the entire site




For rereference, here is a picture of a controlled demolition of a skyscaper. Different locations of the devices produce ejections in different places, however, the physical hallmarks are also present at the WTC.



Link to file (larger version):
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8454/sk...lleddemo5pu.jpg

MMC ,
Do you think this weapon could have been used?

Thermobaric weapon

Weapon effects

The blast wave destroys unreinforced buildings and equipment. Unprotected personnel are injured or killed as well. The antipersonnel effect of the blast wave is more severe in foxholes, on personnel with body armor, and in "stiff" enclosed spaces such as caves, buildings, and bunkers.

The overpressure within the detonation can reach 3 MPa (430 lbf/in²) and the temperature can be 2500 to 3000 °C. Outside the cloud the blast wave travels at over 3 km/s. Following the initial blast is a phase in which the pressure drops below atmospheric pressure creating an airflow back to the center of the explosion strong enough to have a human body lifted and thrown. It draws in the unexploded burning fuel to create almost complete penetration of all non-airtight objects within the blast radius, which are then incinerated. Asphyxiation and internal damage can also occur to personnel outside the highest blast effect zone, e.g. in deeper tunnels, as a result of the blast wave, the heat, or the following air draw.

The effects produced by FAEs (a long high duration pressure and heat impulse) are often likened to the effects produced by low-yield nuclear weapons, but without the problems of radiation—although this is inexact; for all current and foreseen subkiloton yield nuclear weapon designs, prompt radiation effects predominate, producing some secondary heating—very little of the nominal yield is actually delivered as blast. The significant injury dealt by either weapon on a targeted population is nonetheless great.

Some fuels used, such as ethylene oxide and propylene oxide, are highly toxic. A device using such fuels is very dangerous even if the fuel fails to ignite; the device then becomes essentially a chemical weapon.

http://www.answers.com/topic/thermobaric-weapon

I found the following photos:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...ons/blu-118.htm

BLU-118/B Thermobaric Weapon


How it works:



Photo's of Testing:


Before...


Link to file (large version):
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...8b_pre-shot.jpg


After...


Link to file (large version):
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...b_post-shot.jpg

Note how the "after" shot demonstrates a similar suspension of matter to this shot and the fine coating of dust also:



Link to file (large version):
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/8468/pe...okelevel1vg.jpg



It won't detonate in a fire:

Now this is odd:

Given the timing and hallmarks, a possibility. I have a slight problem with the blastwave travelling at 3km/s, however, if it is directed into a collapsing structure the size of the WTC, it could be masked.

Its a good choice for the job.

This post has been edited by MMC on Feb 25 2006, 06:38 AM

More on the BLU-118/B:

http://www.thanhda.com/community/Printpage...18;threadid=726


1,100ft...that's only around 260ft less the WTC, so the BLU-118/B also gives us sufficient range. If detonated at in the basement and perhaps a number in the central colum...it has the potential to kill (dismember) everyone, right to roof level...

Still looking plausible...

How about thermite to help cut the columns and supports?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11

I just got a look at that video:


Video of Liquid metal Before WTC collapse
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11

A hydrocarbon fire is not hot enough to do that to steel, however, we could be seeing aluminium, with a melting point of 660.32°C, dripping out of the crash site...

Using the metal color temperature charts, it would appear to be between 890°C-1080°C. Hydrocarbons in air can reach those temperatures, especially where it has access to open atmosphere, however, it does not eject it vigorously as seen in the footage.

Compare it with this footage:

Video of Thermite Reactions - Melting and Blowing up cars...(really good!)
http://www.yikers.com/video_thermite_destroys_all.html

MMC, they started spamming on the other forum when I posted this. What is wrong with the idea?


From what I have read about Thermobaric explosives they would be the demolition tool of choice if you were worried about comparisons to controlled demolition. They have been used by other militaries for years to implode structures. The noise and pressure wave would be much less detectable then high explosives. Computer programs can accurately calculate the blast effects. Thermobaric weapons are only good on soft targets so the bombs could be set of in the elevator shafts to destabilize the core after Termite cut the steel columns and truss supports. The core walls could shield the fireball of the initial blast. The secondary effect would implode the remaining structure. This device can create overpressures equal to a small nuclear weapon accounting for the energy to turn concrete into fine powder without detectable radiation.


“The bomb detonated by al-Qaeda operatives on the Indonesian island of Bali, used the same principles that are behind thermobaric explosives, say scientists with Defense Research and Development Canada. "We just learned about thermobaric explosives in the late '80s when the Soviet Union was disintegrating," said Stephen Murray, head of the threat assessment group at the defense agency's Suffield, Alta., laboratories. "Those weapons later started showing up on the open market."

Video of the building being pulled in:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=75...=9%2F11+footage

Let's have a look:

This is pretty much correct, the snaking effect and high pressure can do a lot of damage...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermobaric_weapon

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001944.html

The structures mentioned above are quite different from the WTC...and so is the type of device(s) that would be needed at the WTC...namely greater yield and possibly different chemicals.

These devices do detonate (some forms don't), they are noisy, however, it can be masked when there is a 500,000 tonne building falling down. If the blastwave travels at 3km/s, then it would have left Manhatten within the first second and could be confused with the sound of the falling structure.

Cameras in fixed positions did shake around 6 seconds before the collapse itself. I've seen a video of the South tower plane impact that also shakes another fixed camera. All things being equal, I would say that the camera shake just before the collapse, had about as much force as the that plane impact.

That's some punch...and a delay between detonation and the induced collapse.

The difficult part is keeping that pressure wave under control, so that it does not blow the windows out straight across the building...I know that there are some ejections that appear in perfect sequence and very far from any overpressure effect due to gravity, however, a thermobaric weapon would be more widespread.

In saying that, each floor has an acre of space available and if contained within the core, the overpressure may be limited to around 10 floors or so, as it expands into open space...

With that range, 8-10 devices lower section should do the trick...

Thermobaric weapons have deployment options against both soft and hard targets. They can take out a man or flatten a building.

They are quite versatile in resourceful hands.

Not likely...I've been brushing up on the architecture...

http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php

However, we have now gained access to the entire central core, minimising loss of explosive force and maximising shockwave and thermal delivery to the steel framework.

We also have identified that the central core as an area where intense air pressure was a problem, leading to the conclusion that the design by OTIS to have local and express elevators corrected the problem...using explosives we could join all those shafts and introduce the pressure problem...

If we then induce the collapse, fire a thermobaric weapon in the mid section of the building, we can vapourise the top section as it falls and then make the building blow up, from the central core, progressing down the building. The oxygen depletion not only concaves the building, but pulls the entire atmosphere and dust (as seen on video) towards the building.

The oxygen depletion makes it look like a gravity collapse because it is arresting ejected matter and dragging it back into the building. It would mimic a gravity collapse by masking the energy level of the associated dust.

The aftermath and rapid expansion of the dust cloud to fill Manhatten would be the giveaway...it would be too energetic for the event.

Devices generally produce around 30-40 times atmospheric pressure (3.04MPa - 4.053MPa), are dependent on the surrounding structure and yield.

It doesn't fit with terrorism. This is a precision job, designed to collapse a building within its own footprint and make it look like a gravity collapse.

It would be more effective and straight-forward to topple it...not only do you have the impact of the attacks, but skyscrapers playing dominos and the world-wide impact of that.

We have an unknown 3rd party with vested interest...


"The structure was revolutionary. Its main supports were external, lining the four corners of each tower."
http://www.kerman94.com/WTC-Facts.HTM

Screenshot from video of Burning metal before the collapse at one of the main supports


Link to file:
http://img506.imageshack.us/my.php?image=w...thermite8qq.jpg

Link to video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...raplanet+9%2F11