Electron is close-looped photon?, Any further work in semi-classical?

A few years ago (okay, about 10) I was reading a theoretical paper in which it had been claculated that if a photon of energy E, with a wavelength of L can be converted into a close looped toroid (which because of the topography is actually a double-toroid) of toroidal circumference L (such that the self-propogating nature of the photon EM wave results in a continual following of the same toroidal path), then the resultant electromagnetic properties of this structure match those of an electron almost perfectly.

The paper can be found here (http://members.chello.nl/~n.benschop/electron.pdf)

This paper uses a semmi-classical model of a photon.

What I am trying to find (without necessarily spending days web-surfing) is if anyone knows of any recent work in semi-classical mechanics, that may have advanced that model into a potential contender with quantum mechanics (or has it died).

Yes, it seems yes - but electron it's not formed by photon probably - but rather some quantum state of the supergravity wave. No known bosone can serve as both the source, both the interaction particle - with exception of (super)gravitone.

If you're spreading a wave onto water surface, you have to use source formed by the more basic sound/EMG/gravity interaction (like paddle, or something simmilar..). Therefore the electron as the photon source cannot be formed itself by the photonic wave alone.



There is another reason, because of electron isn't just source of EMG charge, but the source of leptonic charge, too (like the neutrinos, and other heavier particles) - and this leptonic charge is emananted to short distance using the weak interraction bosones, not photones.

Electrons and photons are very siimlar but differ by mass. Both interact through distance and time (wavelength and frequency) and both are particles and waves. The electron has finite mass while the photon has zero mass. The finite mass of the electron allows the electron, through e=mc2, to give off a wide range of photons, as long as their summation energy does not exceed its mass equilvilent. It mass also allows it to have variable speed given even further range to its variety. The photon, being without mass and having a finite speed has little variety, unless one counts changes within relativistic reference changing its color.

OK, but there is a "weak" problem: the electron poses not just to electromagnetic force, but a weak nuclear force, too. If the weak force would be derived form the photon, as the rest of electron supposedly is, then the weak charge has to interract with photons too..

Unfortunatelly, this is not very true (the neutrino cannot be trapped using the EMG field) - so that we have to elucidate the hiearchical relationship between the gravity, weak and the strong EMG force now, because it'seems here it is a whole set of short-distance dimensions, which aren't influenced by the light (i.e. "hidden world").

And it seems, both the weak, both the strong EMG interactions are being derived from the (super)gravitational force (compare to GUT family of theories). Thus its evident, that electron contains not just only the "photonic force part" - but some of the "gravity force part", which forms the weak interaction - i.e. weak from practical point of view - but very important from the theoretical one. Therefore, the electron isn't formed by the photon interaction only.
By the way, the very similar mistake have done the geometrodynamic theory at the end of 60's and Quantum Loop Gravity theory, suggesting the photonic origin of Aether/vaccuo.

Although it's possible to consider the virtual particles of Aether to be photonic and the resulting model is rather elegant and simple, it's structure is a little bit intricated (but no so far, in fact...) due to existence of weak nuclear force (and its EMG-coupled derivate, i.e. strong nuclear force). By the way, it has a deep cosmological consequences, for example - the light and it's spacetime metric weren't exist here from the very beginning of the universe, but only after the so called "inflation period", during this the part of dimension compactification has came through.


So I suppose, the real nature of Aether/photon/electron, etc. is gravitational. But why, my goddness - if i'ts well known, that gravity is so weak force? Well, M-theory has the answer: on the scale of compactified dimensions it isn't - but here the gravity is trully dominanting.

Hi Apeman et al,

That is a BRILLIANT paper on the topological equivalence of the electron and the photon. The ONLY changes that would be possible for that would be the addition of extra dimensions to make it "String Theory" compatible. It is rather long but it is intelligible and shows true imagination.

Actually I have been looking for just such an idea for a long time. Thank you very much... I will look into it and evaluate it carefully.

Thanks once again.

Cheers

I understand your euphoria - but unfortunatelly "the addition of extra dimensions " is a very strong concept - without this the TOE would be called the Wheller's electrodynamic theory now....

The superstring theory dualities covers this model completelly - its evident, if we replace the double helix duality in it's core by the simple one, well obtain the semiclassical "photon" model of electron, too. But using a just a three dimesion of space it isn't possible to simply explain a such of "details" as a photon spin using the tranversal wave spreading model and the electron symmetry with respect to it's spin transform (720 deg), too.



In brief, the semmi-classical photonic model of electron correponds the reality in some aspect, but i'ts too simplistic, because it explains only part of it's properties. It's good to understand its strength and weakness, too.

Using this simplistic electron-photon model the difference is mass. The mass is where the weak nuclear force and charge has association. The photon being without mass and charge does not have weak nuclear force association.

In this simple particle model, distance and time are called distance potential and time potential. Distance potential is more than just distance; it is the summation of all phenomena that use distance to express themselves. The photon is confined to spin and wavelengh and the speed of light to express distance potential. While the electron mass (kinetic energy) weak nuclear force, EM force, Gravity, charge, entropy, etc., Any purtubations that lowers any of these aspects of electron distance potential will ceates photons. The specific change within electron distance potential defines the photon wavelength.

If we stripped the electron of all its distance potential to a ground state, it would lose entropy, force connection, charge, kinetic energy, etc., to become a clump of matter with spin but no velocity or charge. This electron ground state will only differ from photons because of electron mass and photon speed of light. The distance potential of photons is limited in expression but neverthless is associated with electron diversity through the electron's distance potential diversity.

Hi Zephir and ApeMan,

I quite understand the limitation. This topological "twist" is just the idea I have been looking for. The spin problem is "nothing" and is easy to remedy in extra dimensions. This also seems to solve the idea of three complex spacial spin. This can be "exactly" modeled. The mobius strip is a wonderful thing and the way it preserves and "exposes" the charge is a brilliant insight. When you say "The superstring theory dualities covers this model completely" I am not so sure that has been fully exploited. No offence... I do not see the "double helix" symmetry, especially all that supercoiling stuff but I am well aware of the mobius strip analogy of the electric and magnetic field and the way the "charge" maps to the surface of the particle for all phase. The simplicity appeals and it is suggestive of impressed spin. I see it fitting my geometrodynamic model better than it fits other "particle" theories. Clearly what is seen in these models will only work in higher dimensions especially when you take into account the property of spin.
What is gravity?, What is gravity "made of"? .... GoodElf
This discussion is the way to attach topologically this idea to a fully comprehensive overall idea. Obviously not "together" yet but it is a way through I think. That is barring any really big problems.

It is also brilliant for the explanation of "intrinsic" de Broglie Wavelength of a particle. I guess that would be almost inevitable for any paper published in "Annales de la Fondation Louis de Broglie". Nothing in the Universe addresses "everything" but this goes most of the way toward resolving all the major outstanding issues other than spin and the real meaning of charge itself. It is a kind of topological soliton utilizing higher curvature of spacetime than is usually possible in conventional 3D + T "bulk". This "solution" strongly constrains any model and might even uniquely determine some of these systems... I am not sure but it is a very valuable contribution. These are dielectric "cavities".... resonant cavities if you will. Stroke of genius. These are now able to be dealt with as "plumbing". It would be interesting to see how these "fields" are able to be simulated. This is geometry,charge, spin and spacetime. It is possible to work with this.

The maths is a "relative" doddle. I like that in maths. It shows great simplicity and this is also a very good sign. The way it observes charge conservation principles is "no accident". I just wonder why this has not become well known... ApeMan where did you come to hear of this "wonder"? I never saw it about anywhere... it certainly got past me. J.G. Williamson and M.B. van der Mark are brilliant and they must have a place in the overall picture in the end.

It also makes us all think about internal geometry with a number of different systems. For instance ball lightning created from these dielectric cavities.

Cheers

This is what I am talking about - it's a quite difficult the explain the transversal rotation of photon (i.e. "spin") without intruducing a hidden dimension space, in which the the spin momentum persists. 3D elastic Minkowski elastic space model is flat and doesn't support this kind of torsion vibration.



So the basic question isn't "why the electron can be described as the mobius photonic strip" but such as "why photonic wave can be decribed as the mobius strip".

It's a little a bit far from the scope od current discussion, but concerning the ball lightning i would prefer the Rydberg's atom hypothesis supported the London kohesion interraction.
Look at its color.

Good Elf et al,

I must admit that much of the discussion is beyond me at the moment. It has been quite a few years since I was deep in the intricacies of particle physics. But then again I have been working in a law enforcement environment, as opposed to workin in research, for the past decade. Three little kids can also seriously eat into your reading time...

To answer though, I was at a pub with some of the mates I'd gone through Uni with, and the old Head of Physical Sciences rocked up. He recalled that a couple of us had expressed an interest in some of the papers he'd shown us on semi-classical mechanics, and pulled this one out of his briefcase. I never got a copy and only recently found out where it came from.

It cam to mind when I was considering current theories and alternatives, and I recalled this paper. Glad it helps. Perhps it never got a great deal of circulation outside of those interested in semi-classical mechanics. I certainly thought it deserved a wider audience, and to be honest I thought it had gotten one.

As an aside, anyone ever gotten used to mucking around with their kids, and feeling superior 'cos it's so easy, and then you get into a mock fight with one of your mates, and suddenly realise how far out of condition you are? Often it prompts you back to the gym or training... Well, Zephir, since I can understand about 10% of what you write (10 years is a long time in particle physics) I am getting renewed determination to bone up on the basics and get back into the stuff that used to fire me up about quantum mechanics and particle theory. So thanks.

Hi ApeMan and Zephir,

Thanks for that ApeMan. It seems to me that it has not enjoyed the respect it deserves. It needs extra dimensions to spin in. As to Zephir's question... I am still thinking about the last statement. It is quite a difficult one to satisfy... why? Ouch!

It goes along the lines of the photon being a type I Superstring. These can form loops naturally. The trick is this "brane" (the "thicker" form of it) needs to transform from a "tube" (sort of like the photon like Zephyr's picture above) to a "sphere" (electron) through "self-interaction". But we already know this needs at least another photon to do this trick so there is a bit of a ballet going on there ... a par de deux. This is not in 3D + T but in "Uberspace". I would like to see this as a "dielectric quantum cavity" of only two dimensions. Sort of a 2D bubble with the photon looped inside and mapped on the inner surface topologically as that mobius strip. The charge and magnetic moment would escape via a "flat" Twistor "point" in 3D + T. Something like a bubble you can make on a balloon when you twist it ... everything seen on the "inside". The actual size could be infinitesimally small on the outside and much larger on the inside due to spin and compactification. The rest of the Theory can "fit" de Broglie theory better then.

This may sound a bit complicated for an electron but "one treatment for everything" just different dimensions. Charges are mapped on the surface of the brane as a "braneworld" and the "origin" of the charge is the "null" uncharged string. It exhibits charge and mass as projections on the brane..

The soliton is a different "beast" from the brane. The soliton is the "string" and the "brane" is the multi-dimensional space. Like your comments on that one.... pure conjecture.

Cheers

Thread noted.

Sets differ from the teaching atom of Bohr.

Notes, say on Zephir shows a topology for the actual atom, not only the design of the atom, but how the strong and weak forces react within.

Addend, superiorisms, the dynamic range in balance:Zeph said> Although it's possible to consider the virtual particles of Aether to be photonic and the resulting model is rather elegant and simple, it's structure is a little bit intricated (but no so far, in fact...) due to existence of weak nuclear force (and its EMG-coupled derivate, i.e. strong nuclear force). By the way, it has a deep cosmological consequences, for example - the light and it's spacetime metric weren't exist here from the very beginning of the universe, but only after the so called "inflation period", during this the part of dimension compactification has came through.

Ph says> What are control bosses through the tunneling means of communication, via a telos-em defining wave?

Examples:I've been here every night, but your new?

Girl; Sure' I'm new, my friend told me about this joint, so I came down.

Man; You look like her, I mean smell like,......

Girl; Sorry?!
I'm not a whore you know.I've got a father, come from a good home and don't need as-holes likes you, telling me that I'm trying to run a racket.

Man,, Sorry!?