The Church Of England, ...owes Charles Darwin an apology

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/09/15...y.ap/index.html

FGG

I personally agree with the statement that its basically meaningless, however it could be meaningful IF the party, or ancesters of that party think it would be beneficial. For example, in Canada recently the government apologized to the native americans for what it had done from about 150 years ago until maybe 40 or 50 years ago (this definitely could be different since some of the victims are still alive). I know that at least some of the native americans were happy to finally get an apology.

Also, from that article, I would assume that cleric feels Darwin is in heaven, and as such would be able to hear the apology himself.

But again, I do think its sort of meaningless.

Agreed!

There's a push in the US to have some government organizations apologize for supporting slavery ~150 years ago! I don't necessarily think it's valid since nobody alive today was either a slave or slave-owner! Besides, when would it then end (the need for an apology)? Would the next generation also have to publicly apologize? and on and on...

FGG

However, IF the ancestors of slaves wanted an apology and it meant something to them, it should be done. Although it would seem meaningless to us, its such a simple gesture that there would be no harm in it. But I do think slavery is a more complicated issue than that, since although slavery was ended ~150 years ago, African Americans were continued to be treated very poorly for a long time. Probably an apology for slavery would be less important than an apology for the racism that African Americans have faced more recently, even though it was not "as bad" as slavery. (Mind you, being a white male, I very well could be completely out to lunch here)

I tend to agree. To apologize on behalf of someone else is a common occurance, and is generally seen as something which distances the apologizer from the offender, providing an assurance that the offense will not be committed by the apologizer. I am a white male, too, by the way.
One thing I strongly oppose is restitution. While an apology costs the apologizer nothng, restitutions would consists of wrongly depriving whites, asians, hispanics, native americans and pacific islanders of money in order to present it to african americans as compensation for a crime which was never committed against them, but against their ancestors. It would be akin to demanding that scandinavian countries pay weregild on all the europeans their ancestors killed during the viking age.

And whether or not this is meaningful is entirely dependent on the victim, or ancestors of the victim. In the case of Darwin's ancestors an apology is not important. In the case of slavery it may be to some.

I would not say I strongly oppose restitution, although I think cases need to be looked at individually. In the case of slavery and then the institutional racism that existed for at least 100 years after (it really is still going on today, but it has gotten much better than even 50 years ago), the ancestors of the enslaved African Americans have suffered economic disadvantage because of it. I would say I am almost always opposed at just throwing money at a problem, but trying to correct or counteract the wrongs done in the past is not a bad thing, in my opinion. Now, don't ask me what a good way to do this would be, as I couldn't answer it, at least not under the framework of modern day America. My solution would involve a highly socialized education system with truly equal access to all, not with better access for the rich, which is how it is now in both Canada and the United States. But most Americans don't like socialist solutions like that (or at least not most of the ones I talk too)

So... from now until eternity, if African Americans (American Indians...) want an apology, the US government should give it to them? An apology from someone that was not involved in the crime is irrelevant, and 6 generations past is ridiculous!

If a generation is 25 years, then slavery ended six generations ago! when will the blaming stop? As long as apologies are seen as necessary, we will never be free of slavery!

FGG

Our welfare system of the 60's, 70's & 80's created a dependency on the system for those on the welfare system (mostly black inner-city mothers and children). They became slaves to the system and had a very difficult time getting off the system and back to being productive citizens. That was not resolved (FTMP) until the welfare reform in the early 90's limiting the benefits forcing them to get off the system. The only way to free us from the race issue is to ignore race! Nobody is special in the eyes of the governemnt!

FGG

More than attempt to right a wrong, this apology will serve as a way for the Church of England to revise their stand on evolution. Compared to a press announcement stating something to the effect of "We hereby revise our stand on evolution..", starting with an apology is I feel a better direction to go. By apologizing to Darwin, the church is also indirectly apologizing to all those who are supporting evolution and are bothered by the church's stand. Overall, a willingness to change will keep the church from going obsolete in the age of science.

Come on now, just because slavery ended ~6 generations ago, that doesn't mean there was equality between whites and blacks as soon as it happened. As is common knowledge, that was far from the case.

And it wasn't the welfare system that made/caused African Americans to be in poverty at a higher rate than whites. It was government discrimination and attitudes that were passed on to society with the help of the government for a long time.

Even in the late 70's the attitudes about blacks was so bad that Warren Moon went undrafted in the NFL draft because he was a black QB and wouldn't switch positions. So, although slavery ended, don't even pretend that things have been equal for blacks since then.

I think I am changing my mind on the apology thing actually. Although I personally think it would be meaningless to me, knowing what my government did to the Native Americans (in Canada) I feel ashamed that my country could do such a thing and would want to issue an apology. I think part of the reason an apology would be meaningless to me as me, or any of my ancestors that I know anything about didn't suffer anything remotely close to what others have. I might feel differently if 5 or 6 generations ago my ancestors were slaves, and 2 or 3 generations ago my ancestors couldn't live the same kind of life as me just because of the colour of their skin.

Depends where you live.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...ry-goes-on.html

It sure is sad that slavery is still going on, but I think it was pretty clear that particular discussion with slavery had to do specifically with slavery in the United States.

Of course not! but that is what the apology is about! Slavery, not equal rights.

FGG

Well, I am going to concede that I don't really have any more arguments about it, so we will probably have to agree to disagree then, since I did flip flop my opinion during the discussion

There is still slavery in the U.S. as well. Most prostitution involves some slavery and prostitution in the US is probably worse than anywhere else in the world. All those desparate christians an all.