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> What To Teach In School About Creation?, The pond is not science.
 
Must Schools teach Evolution from the pond?
No, that is not science [ 9 ]  [14.52%]
No, that is religion [ 4 ]  [6.45%]
No, they should not teach it at all [ 3 ]  [4.84%]
Yes, kids behave better when they think they are pond slime [ 28 ]  [45.16%]
Yes, better than teaching about God, who cares if it is true? [ 10 ]  [16.13%]
No, they should stick to what we know [ 8 ]  [12.90%]
Total Votes: 62
  
Sinister Utopia
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 02:42 PM


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QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light @ Jun 28 2008, 01:44 PM)
You can't compare birds to Biblical truth. If you try out Christianity as opposed to the other faiths that you mentioned you will see what I'm talking about. Many of the followers of other faiths were indoctrinated into them or are forced to accept them by oppressive governments and societies. We don't have to engage in such activities because we aren't  peddaling something that is that hard to believe.

QUOTE
You don't get to pick the truth any more than I do; it is what it is.


That's right so you have to present evidence of why it is true. The bible is insufficient evidence.

Remember there are logical explanations of life that do not require a God.

When there is no evidence to support your hypothesis you must accept that there is no more or less evidence for Yahweh as there is for Allah as there is for Zeus in other words no evidence at all. You have to make a great leap of faith not only to introduce the assumption of a creator but also the details of personality, their needs and wants etc. You claim that you are in no position to second guess but in reality you may as well, as there is no evidence of his/hers/it's existence anyway.

We can all make up Gods that require no evidence.
You worry about atheist morality and that they are going to hell as if you could know the mind of God. My leap of faith is that if there is an omnipotent creator and afterlife, he/she/it will be infinitely smarter than you and will judge me with infinitely more wisdom. That is why I need not worry about my choice of atheism/agnosticism/theism etc. God would have made me with a skeptical mind and would also have known I would not believe in he/she/it's existence without sufficient evidence, unless of course your God is not as powerful or wise as mine. wink.gif









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orestis
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 02:56 PM


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QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light @ Jun 28 2008, 10:13 AM)
So you support forcing beliefs on people and brainwashing/indoctrination?






Charlemagne, who became master of the French kingdom in 768, had the noble ambition to unite the German tribes in one great empire and one religion in filial communion with Rome, but he mistook the means. He employed material force, believing that people become Christians by water-baptism, though baptized against their will. He thought that the Saxons, who were the most dangerous enemies of his kingdom, must be either subdued and Christianized, or killed. He pursued the same policy towards them as the squatter sovereigns would have the United States government pursue towards the wild Indians in the Western territories. Treaties were broken, and shocking cruelties were committed on both sides, by the Saxons from revenge and for independence, by Christians for punishment in the name of religion and civilization. Prominent among these atrocities is the massacre of four thousand five hundred captives at Verden in one day. As soon as the French army was gone, the Saxons destroyed the churches and murdered the priests, for which they were in turn put to death.

Their subjugation was a work of thirty-three years, from 772 to 805. Widukind (Wittekind) and Albio (Abbio), the two most powerful Saxon chiefs, seeing the fruitlessness of the resistance, submitted to baptism in 785, with Charlemagne as sponsor.125125 “Jetzt war Sachsen besiegt,” says Giesebrecht (l.c., p. 117), “und mit Blutgesetzen worden das Christenthum und das Königthum zugliech den Sachsen aufgedrungen. Mit Todesstrafen wurde die Taufe erzwungen, die heidnischen Gebräuche bedroht; jede Verletzung eines chistlichen Priesters wurde, wie der Aufruhr gegen den König und der Ungehorsam gegen seine Befehle, zu einem todeswuerdigen Verbrechen gestempelt.”
But the Saxons were not entirely defeated till 804, when 10,000 families were driven from house and home and scattered in other provinces. Bloody laws prohibited the relapse into heathenism. The spirit of national independence was defeated, but not entirely crushed, and broke out seven centuries afterwards in another form against the Babylonian tyranny of Rome under the lead of the Saxon monk, Martin Luther.

History of The Christian Church



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Bringer-of-Light
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 03:03 PM


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SUtopia - You can save the world 10x and you still won't get into heaven unless you accept Jesus as your savior. Don't be fooled, hell is filled with good people.

Butter - What are you talking about? Jehovas witnesses are cultists anyway. Don't connect them to the mainstream. I do take communion in my church just not every service. Catholics don't deny that Baptists will go to heaven. We are in this together.


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buttershug
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 03:08 PM


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QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light @ Jun 28 2008, 03:03 PM)
Butter - What are you talking about? Jehovas witnesses are cultists anyway. Don't connect them to the mainstream. I do take communion in my church just not every service. Catholics don't deny that Baptists will go to heaven. We are in this together.

Better tell the Pope that. He is most empahatic that your communion doesn't count because it's not sanctioned by the Roman Catholic Church.
Don't take it up with me, he's the one you have the beef with, not letting you into Heaven untll you have a proper RC communion.

And what makes you different from the cultists?


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Bringer-of-Light
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 03:13 PM


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The pope doesn't have an issue with my faith and I've had Roman Catholic Communion before anyway.

Don't dare compare the faith to a cult. My faith is not the same as the jehova witnesses.


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When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." (John 8:12)
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buttershug
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 03:15 PM


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QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light @ Jun 28 2008, 03:13 PM)
The pope doesn't have an issue with my faith and I've had Roman Catholic Communion before anyway.

Don't dare compare the faith to a cult. My faith is not the same as the jehova witnesses.

If it is not the same please tell me the differences?

And why has the Pope repeatedly said that Protestant communion doesn't count?
And why when I was in an RC church did the Priest say it was for RC's only?


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Sinister Utopia
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 03:32 PM


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QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light @ Jun 28 2008, 03:03 PM)
SUtopia - You can save the world 10x and you still won't get into heaven unless you accept Jesus as your savior. Don't be fooled, hell is filled with good people.


QUOTE
SUtopia - You can save the world 10x and you still won't get into heaven


Most probably true (heaven most probably does not exist) laugh.gif

QUOTE
unless you accept Jesus as your savior. Don't be fooled, hell is filled with good people.


Well, I'll look forward to meeting some of the greatest minds ever.

I'll take my chance, it's not your concern.



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Bringer-of-Light
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 03:40 PM


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Yes it is my concern. I am trying to reach out to my fellow man.

Butter - what are you even talking about at this point? Jehovas witnesses aren't the same as regular Christians and you know it. You crossed the line with that example. Stop argueing for the sake of argument and be honest.


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buttershug
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 03:46 PM


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QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light @ Jun 28 2008, 03:40 PM)
Yes it is my concern. I am trying to reach out to my fellow man.

Butter - what are you even talking about at this point? Jehovas witnesses aren't the same as regular Christians and you know it. You crossed the line with that example. Stop argueing for the sake of argument and be honest.

Regular Christians are not the same as skeptics, and you know it.
Be honest.
But I notice you still havn't told me the fundamental differences.
You don't agree with them, most of us here don't agree with them or you.
So you will have to tell us why you are right without also giving evidence that Muslims and JWs are also right.

You are a true believer, they are true believers.
Why is what you believe true and what they believe false?

And we are trying to reach out to our fellow man and say suspend your belief and look at it objectively.


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Dabeer
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 03:52 PM


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QUOTE (dad1 @ Jun 28 2008, 12:37 AM)
So, if you have some statement about the bible as incorrect, make it! Why dance around in circles???? What is it you think you have???

I, and others, have, many times in this thread, explicitly stated that the Bible is not acceptable SCIENTIFIC proof. You yourself have confirmed this by stating that your claim is a BIBLICAL claim, not a SCIENTIFIC claim. Your pal Bringer-of-Light has confirmed in a separate thread that issues of FAITH do not belong in SCIENCE. Thus the inclusion of the BIBLE in any SCIENTIFIC research is incorrect. QED.

QUOTE (dad1)
You misunderstand.  I did not ask what your godless world view thinks is logical. You would not be in a position to have the smallest clue whatsoever on that, unless science covered that area. You are proof it cannot. Thanks for that.

Logic and deduction are a huge part of science. Without proof, without evidence of a change, science tells us there was no change.

QUOTE (dad1)

You forget the main part of my claim, is that your so called science cannot tell us the state of the future or far past universe! So, same or different, who cares?? What you know is what we are looking at. And I think, even a grade school kid could see that that is squat, so far. Work on that.

Science makes absolutely no claims about the state of the universe in the future. You are the ONLY one in this thread to have brought future-state into the discussion. You are absolutely correct that all we can KNOW is what we can look at now. However, through logic and insight we can make deductions about the past and things that we cannot observe directly. This is similar to how a detective would examine the evidence at a crime scene to recreate the events and identify a suspect. Thus, science CAN tell us the state of the past, in that no evidence has been found to suggest any sort of change. You choosing to ignore it is simply arrogance and hypocrisy.

QUOTE (dad1)
That could not begin to matter unless first, science had anything to say about it's claims. Think about it.

Science says your claim is false. Science says your claim changes nothing about our understanding of the universe and how to apply the laws of nature to improve our civilization. Your claim does nothing to disprove what is currently known about the universe. Your claim is irrelevant.

QUOTE (dad1)
This may be a good place to start. Read it, and deal with it.

What's "This"? The Bible? News flash, I've read it cover to cover about 4 times. It says NOTHING about any "past state". If you CHOOSE to claim that the extended lifetimes of Noah etc prior to the flood are EVIDENCE of a past state, then guess what - you are doing EXACTLY what scientists do that you say we're not allowed to do! Applying LOGIC and DEDUCTION!

Your attempts at defending your attack on science have been nothing more than deceit, hypocrisy, and delusion. Those lurkers you keep mentioning? Yeah, they're not laughing at us, they're laughing at you.


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"A denial of evolution - however motivated - is a denial of evidence, a retreat from reason to ignorance." - Dr. Tim D. White

"The problem with religion is that it is the only mode of thought that puts a positive value on a person's perpetual immunity to new evidence and new argument." - Sam Harris

"What a fool believes he sees no wise man has the power to reason away" - The Doobie Brothers
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Dabeer
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 03:55 PM


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QUOTE (TheDoc @ Jun 28 2008, 01:30 AM)
laugh.gif Another lie. I've been debating this with him for most of the thread.

As have I, albeit less actively.

QUOTE (TheDoc)
This was addressed to another poster but I simply cannot let the irony and hypocrisy of it slide.  laugh.gif

Amen.


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"A denial of evolution - however motivated - is a denial of evidence, a retreat from reason to ignorance." - Dr. Tim D. White

"The problem with religion is that it is the only mode of thought that puts a positive value on a person's perpetual immunity to new evidence and new argument." - Sam Harris

"What a fool believes he sees no wise man has the power to reason away" - The Doobie Brothers
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Dabeer
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 03:59 PM


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QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light @ Jun 28 2008, 07:50 AM)
You people don't get it. You have to make a decision on whether or not you want to live by the Bible. If you do then certain scientific claims have to be viewed as invalid. Its not a personal problem with science, its a personal problem with science that deviates from Biblical truth.

Wow. You REALLY don't get it. Do you listen to the things you say?

You just said "You must decide to live with a fantasy, but if you do you must ignore the truth, because truth deviates from the fantasy".

Wow. Just... wow.


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"A denial of evolution - however motivated - is a denial of evidence, a retreat from reason to ignorance." - Dr. Tim D. White

"The problem with religion is that it is the only mode of thought that puts a positive value on a person's perpetual immunity to new evidence and new argument." - Sam Harris

"What a fool believes he sees no wise man has the power to reason away" - The Doobie Brothers
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Bringer-of-Light
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 04:10 PM


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Dabeer - Why are you rephrasing my statements in an attempt to make me sound closed minded? I didn't say anything like what you claim I said. There is no fantasy involved. The science claims I deny are the ones who cannoy move beyond the stage of guesses. Why can't you debate me honorably.

On your past state arguments - science makes the rash assumption that carbon dating is legitimate based on current world conditions. Carbon dating may be viable to 4000 years ago byt no more. As far as uranium dating and such - you have no way to know if your proposed halflife of uranium is accurate because we haven't been around long enough to test your hypothesis. Why is it ok for you to assume that you know uranium's halflife when you propose it to be so large a number? Read my yound earth post.

Bible cases aren't like dating cases because they can be tested against the Bible at any time.


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orestis
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 05:15 PM


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QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light @ Jun 28 2008, 10:04 AM)


Governments forcing Islam on people does matter because people choose Christianity of their own free will.

There is your statement. I've provided historical evidence that it's wrong.
Are you going to face the contradiction between what you believe and what is true? Or avoid it, pretend that this truth doesnt exist?


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buttershug
Posted on Jun 28 2008, 06:07 PM


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QUOTE (Bringer-of-Light @ Jun 28 2008, 04:10 PM)
Bible cases aren't like dating cases because they can be tested against the Bible at any time.

And they can only be tested against the bible.
When tested against preponderance of evidence it fails.

And you can equally say," Koran cases aren't like dating cases because they can be tested against the Koran at any time."

Are you at least starting to understand that failings of your logic yet?


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