Special Forces - Useless Redundancy?, SEAL's are superior

In the US Military, since SEAL's are at the obvious pinnacle, why are there any other "special forces" guys out there? Who needs em?

All special forces have specialties.
You only need to compare Seals to British SAS
They are different with different objectives...
Sometime you need a hammer, sometimes a screwdriver.

Check here for a discussion that will give you some laughs as you learn.

Ahh, depending of course ::))

This post has been edited by yor_on on Apr 13 2008, 04:38 PM

Do you know the minimum number of pull-ups (chin-ups) that must be performed to qualify?

HAHAH good thread, thanks

ask BDW :)

How ignorant can you possibly be?
SEALs specialize in getting into locations other military groups can't. That's what they're trained for. Other than that, they're no different than the Rangers.
Actual Special Forces specialize in unconventional warfare. They fight geurilla style, they win the hearts and minds of the people, they undertake highly specialized missions during conventional warfare.
The SEALs and the Special Forces have completely different jobs.
And for the record: Army SF training takes longer and involves more combat than Navy SEAL training. Force Multiplication is just a useful concept to the SEALs, it's an all out credo for the Special Forces. If it came down to a firefight between the two, I'd put my money on SF any day.

0.
All branches of the military judge their PF tests based on push-ups, sit-ups, and distance running. There are no pull-up requirements.
As to how many push-ups or sit-ups, it depends on your height and weight. For a 6' 200lbs guy, it's 54 push-ups in one minute, 106 sit-ups in two minutes, and 1 mile in 16.5 minutes.

Well, since SEAL's can do everything, must qualify for everything from parachute to diving and water ops, it seems to me that in itself would be superior.

There is no application they could not qualify for, just perhaps not be as good at a particular thing as some particular specialty.

However, the never ending and most important fundamental that I keep hearing repeatedly, is.....Plans and methods are fine and all, but the most important factor in success is situational awareness and properly responding and taking advantage of the actual situation, as real life scenarios rarely ever follow the plan. That whole credo of the Marines, adapt, improvise, overcome.

It would seem to me that more well-rounded training would be a benefit, and less of a disadvantage in most situations.

You should listen to BDW on this topic, his answer is flawless.

Many people ha e some sort of romanticised view of the SEALs and I don't really understand it. Not to take anything away from the SEALs, but they aren't the ultimate force for any situation....

Flawless, but biased...he was after all a member.

There is a case to be made for either side.

On the one hand, specialization crafts a finely fitted tool for a specific application.

On the other hand, encompassing every discipline allows greater latitude and much more varied and adaptable response.

Chicken and Egg sort of argument.

But in American history, the Military has most often been disadvantaged by redundant efforts, straining in different directions for disparate goals.

But, your mileage may vary.

Wrong. They can't do everything, and they aren't qualified for everything.
SEALs have no language requirements, therefore, as a rule they can't interact with the locals. Therefore, they aren't qualified for unconventional warfare.
SEALS don't train for the vast majority of the roles they fill. Most of the mystique surrounding them is due to this. They often do jobs they aren't trained for, and this makes them appear to be highly trained.
Wikipedia - Navy SEAL training
(Derrek, according to this link there ARE pull up requirements specifically for SEALS that I was not aware of, so apparently my answer wasn't quite right the first time, sorry.)
Unlike Special Forces, the majority of a SEAL's training comes AFTER he's achieved his designation. Most SEALs will engage in unit training for about a year and a half after being assigned to a team, but all of this training comes as a form of mission training, and is not structured the way the initial training is. This means there's a wide variety of skill levels in the various fields of this training among SEALs, and there is no way to fail by doing poorly at this training. Bear in mind that much of this training is similar to the training a SWAT police team gets, and is focused on giving the SEAL team members a familiarity with personal combat that is not provided by Naval Basic Training.
In contrast, the Special Forces must undergo ALL of their requisite training before receiving their green beret and being assigned to a unit. Failure at any aspect of this training (which takes about 2-1/2 years) means being cut from the course.
The same holds true for Army Rangers, Marine Forward Recon and Marine Snipers, although the training for those groups is not as long or involved as SF training.

Primary Unconventional Warfare. Force Multiplication. Autonomous Operations. Conventional Warfare. The list goes on...
In fact, those things which they are qualified for is a short list.
Naval Sabotage. Hostage Rescue. Police Actions. Some Black Ops. That's it. The SEALs are a HIGHLY specialized unit, even more so than any other elite unit in the US military aside from Marine Snipers. Even the Marine Forward Recons do a wider variety of jobs.

The credo of the Marines is "Semper Fidelis."

It might seem that way, but that's because you have no training or experience with tactical combat or strategic operations.
I am willing to explain the basic concepts, and go into detail on this particular subject (generalization vs specialization) but it would take a bit of time, so I'll have to do it on my lunch breaks.

Meh no worries.

I will provisionally take your word for it. I am somewhat familiar with SEALs, having known quite a few and about them (well the unclassified part).

I will tell you, from what I know, the physical training and mental conditioning is only exceeded as far as I am aware by the Spetznaz.

I certainly would never even attempt it.

I had a very good friend in High school, who was incredibly motivated and worked every day for at least 4 years to get through BUDS. He washed out three times, and I think he may still be trying, haven't heard from him in many years.

Maybe the other Special Forces get hosed on the PR, but I guess I just know little about them.

Isn't one part of Seals training to be expected to master at least one language?

That's part of Army Special Forces training, but I've never heard of a SEAL who spoke any language other than English (and occasionally, Spanish).

Well, let's put it this way. All training in the five military branches in the US are standardized, to allow soldiers to transfer from one branch of the military to another. All combat training gives soldiers Combat Training Units (CTUs) which are used to give a good idea of how well trained a marine is when he wishes to transfer to the air force, for instance.

Army Rangers have 137 CTUs.
Navy SEALs have 152 CTUs.
Special Forces have 279 CTUs.
I don't know what the rest are, but it's my understanding that Marine Forward Recon is between 160 and 190, and the rest are between 100 - 150.
One guy who was a Norwegian SF soldier moved to the US and enlisted a while back. When they calculated his training, he wound up with over 350 CTUs and his choice of elite units. (Although transfers DO have to take the structured training of any elite unit they join, they only have to pass the minimun requirements in order to get a slot, whereas new volunteers not only must pass the minimum requirements, but must compete with their fellow trainees for a limited number of slots.)

All in all, the Mossad SOG teams are probably the most highly trained in the world, with the Special Forces or Commando Units of a few European nations coming in the next few slots. The US depends heavily on technology, and thus saves money by providing elite teams with the latest and greatest tech, while scrimping on the combat training. This is not a fault of the US, by any means by the way. I'll take high tech over highly-trained any day.

This post has been edited by BigDumbWeirdo on Apr 14 2008, 03:20 PM

In an operational setting redundancy is an asset. (Not a liability.)

Yeah BDW Its a sad fact that the time of the warrior very much is lost to kill technology by distance.
That and new catchwords as 'collateral damage' makes modern wars so much dirtier and killing civilians so much more probable.
It's very much a cowards war. And its the very much the same in every western 'civilized Nation' as well as eastern nowadays.
( on the other hand, when ever did any fighter refuse to attack from 'out of the sun?' :)


The ratio of civilians as compared to soldiers killed raises with every new war.
The safest place in a modern war is to be a soldier and that's no joke.
I wish that every time someone wanted to start a war we would start with sending out those bast* that most loudly was in favor for someone else going to do their work.
Let them fight first..

This post has been edited by yor_on on Apr 14 2008, 04:06 PM