a hydrogen video, hydrogen

I haven't seen the Canadian video yet but I did see fuel cells this morning at the NAB that were powered by pint size cylinders that contained hydrogen gas. These fuel cells put out 12volts and rated at 100 watts were able to power my laptop and webcam.

I asked how does one get the hydrogen? The engineer for the company replied "at any welding supply store or station that sells hydrogen". I thought to myself that since all it takes is sea water or even urine and an electrolytic catalyst and energy, why not make ones own hydrogen to fill the cylinders and then use the stored energy when it was most needed . . . like out in the wilderness.

I thought of my little RV as sort of a rolling Hydrogen still. So whats crazy about this? There's plenty of sun where I come from and plenty of sea water. On a practical level, since carrying water has always been the number 1 occupation in the world, why not just drink it and make hydrogen out of the waste? Better than pissing in the wind. Y/N?

bobkiger@vidiots.us

Thank you Dr. Kackstaetter for your summary of the alternate forms of energy and their current development.

Which direction of research would you pursue ?

It appears that the answer for now, anyway, may be the flex fuels such as Ethanol and a lower percentage of gasoline, hopefully less than 10%. Pollution however, remains in this equation.

i have just found away to run an engine on hydragen and oxyegn but is only a 50cc engine as i could not produce enogth browns gas to produce to run a higher cc engine i was visited by shell asking to buy my idea the tearms are that i never speak of this again the big plot it this idea can be done very easy with platnuim as electrodes ok it is a bit expansive or u could use grphite ever way u have to make enogth cells to produce the amount of gas needred for each cycle of the engine now i found 4 stroke engine to run better then 2 stroke as 2 strokes are a pass over system unlke a 4 stroke that uses valves and timing the simple elctrolersis idea works but does take a lot of cells to produce enogth browns gas to work i use sea water yes u herad me right sea water has a natrol salt content with is used in electrolersis distelled water will not work also u may have seen the save fuel in ur car this kit does not work why because it still pulls the same amount of fuel and air into the car adding extra hydragen would just make the engine run ritcher

So, I read about the hydrogen energy by Rothman Technologies.

I can tell you that I will not invest a cent is this kind of stupidity.

To summarize their finding:

- you buy a certain salt
- you buy a certain chemical
- you forget about the energy that was needed to produce these two products

(really you forget about it)

- you throw that in water and run an engine with brown gas
- you advertise on the net
- you hope to make people believe that you have an energy solution for the US
- you wait for an opportunity to get investors spoiling their money on your finding

Of course it some fun to produce brown gas. But writing this is really a shame, or at least it is stupid:

To produce H2 you need to provide the dissociation energy of water.
Doing that with a salt and a metal means bring the energy in a chemical way, because these products have a potential energy. To understand that clearly, take it the other way around: once the salt and metal have been used, can they be recycled to produce brown gas again? The answer is yes, if you provide the necessary energy. The energy to regenerate the original salt and metal is the energy necessary to compensate what has been given to the brown gas. Moreover, the chemical regeneration will not have a perfect efficiency (thermal losses for example) and therefore the regeneration will cost more that the energy recuperated in the brown gas.

The physics lesson: to evaluate a potential energy source, consider what it costs to maintain the earth in the same state as it was before using this energy. Otherwise you just decrease the available energy. For example: see how much energy it costs to regenerate the salt and metal.

Environmental lesson: the only sustainable energy is the solar energy because there is no need/no way to "regenerate the sun", geothermal energy is also a candidate. Fossil fuel, the main resource currently will have an end and "Rothman Technologies" cant do anything about it.

Finally, it should be stressed, because apparently it is not well know, that hydrogen is not a source of energy, it is a vector of energy. This means that it can only be used to store energy temporarilly. There is no large resource of hydrogen available (and no way to produce it cheaply, except from solar energy).

michel


Exercice:

Try to identify the real source of energy in the Rothman Technology and check if it free or cheap and what its availability is. Hint: start with common NaCl salt and any kind of electrolyte. Could some solar energy be used in this process? Finally, evaluate the possible environmental consequences: are there no other wastes than water vapor emissions, what would be the costs of environmental remediation? Assume that 10% of fuels for cars would be based on this fake discovery and evaluate the waste disposal, how hazardous they are, the costs. Evaluate also how much recycling would cost. Evaluate the benefit.

This post has been edited by Lalbatros on Nov 5 2006, 10:32 AM

So, I am not a scientist, could someone explain to me about Rothman's experiment?

Did he or did he not power a 12 hp gasoline engine off of hydrogen gas collected from canisters of salt water and a catalyst of some sort?

Is this not an achievement? I'm curious because I read earlier today that Honda has a car that runs off of fuel cells and I was wondering if it was possible to create hydrogen fuel from something other than coal.

Hi all

This is my first post and I am quite excited to find other people into the hydrogen technology that I am. I am starting to experiment with the so called frequency enhanced electrolosis and have done nearly ten months of research into the subject.

It really frustrates me when people shoot down our ideas before even contemplating them so all you who don't think this will work just chill and amuse me for a moment. Yes there is the law of thermo dynamics but you must remember that other laws that were once thought true have been disproven.

The reason that the frequency improves the efficiency of the electrolysis is because of resonence frequency. The water molicule has a resonence of roughly 42.8 kHz. When you subject anything to it's resonence frequency it becomes weaker and can even self destruct. When you subject water to it's resonence frequency the bonds between the oxygen and hydrogen become weaker thus requiring less energy to break them apart. This is how the effeciency goes up. Many people when I tell them this look at me like this or this but just think about it for a minute.

Now if you take you DC current that goes to your electrodes and puls it at 42.8 kHz you are weakening the bonde while also pulling on them.

Happy thinking and good luck to all

cheers

Serious

Mr serious C, can we talk more with email corresponding. I'm interest about your experiment that tell frequency enhanced water electrolysis.

Hi zon

Would be more than happy to communicate with you.

I can be contacted at corgrif@hotmail.com.

Cheers

Serious

Frequency enhanced electrolysis might be a MORE EFFICIENT means of breaking the bonds H from O (I wouldn't know), but its not breaking the laws of thermodynamics. The energy you get back when recombining the H2 with O will be LESS than what you put in to break them apart.

That doesn't mean its not valuable idea, there are advantages to being able to get that energy back when and where you want it.

Arthur

This post has been edited by adoucette on Mar 22 2007, 11:03 PM

Hey, hey. I'm just 20 min. from UNB Fredericton.

I've read some (not all since I don't have that much time) and there seems to be some mix ups.

One was already addressed and that is hydrogen cells being required to produce electricity. Although electricity can be produced by this means, a generator that runs of hydrogen will do the job.

Electrolysis is a wasteful process of passing electricity through a water/ion solution (pure water will not conduct electricity and so salt is added to create sodium and chloride ions) and most of the current will pass through. What percentage of the electricity depends on the length of the apparatus where the longer the current has to travel through the water the more likely it will contribute to the breaking of the hydrogen/oxygen bond. High frequency pulses work better than a constant DC voltage.

Now the idea of using metals and other materials is so the production of hydrogen is chemical as opposed to electrical. Hydrochloric acid and magnesium will produce hydrogen gas. Car batteries today have hydrochloric acid and will produce hydrogen gas.

I read an article in a popular science magazine that I had found rather interesting. Playing with alloys and their shapes on a microscopic level it has been found possible to pass water through a specifically shaped alloy membrane and at the same time shine UV light onto to it. This breaks the bond. The next step is to allow the use of white light. The idea is that water can be passed through a membrane in a clear container outside in the day time. Water goes in one end and hydrogen/oxygen gas will come out the other. Only energy used is to push the water in and collect the gasses on the other side.

I do hope you're talking on a practical sense where with todays technology such would be true because chemically this isn't true.

2H2 + O2 = 2H2O + Energy
Energy + 2H2O = 2H2 + O2

Energy in equals energy out.

What I'm curious is would it be possible to break the bonds using sound? High frequency sound waves sent into a specially designed drum to reflect a high % of the sound energy back and forth. Sound is a compression wave and with enough extremely high compressions converging this could generate enough kinetic energy to break the bond but happen fast enough so not to cause the water exposed to the kinetic energy to boil.

I believe that aluminum + gallium + water => hydrogen + gallium + oxidized aluminum.

Energy in does not always equal energy out. There is energy used to break bonds or form them. You also have enthalpy change.

Chemically energy in will equal energy out. It takes energy to break bonds and energy is released when bonds form however in the case of burning hydrogen you have two molecules of hydrogen and one of oxygen. Energy must be used to break the bonds of these molecules. Then the hydrogen will bond with the oxygen to produce two molecules of water and the energy released by this bond formation will sum up to be greater than what is required to break the bonds in the first place. This makes it an exothermic reaction. Now if you do the reverse (break the bond of the two water molecules and reform the two hydrogen and one oxygen molecules) then it will require an input of energy that is equal to what was net left over. This makes this process endothermic.