Lhc Danger Revisited !, Large Hardron collider danger

Nov262007 is when the Large Hadron Collider will be turned on for the first time! It’s been almost two decades in creation; a 6 billion dollar 50 country experiment will be sending protons at {near} light speed through 17 miles of magnets having them collide in the middle in a stargate type structure.
Creating in this experiment a "possible" theoretical particles /energy called Higgs enabling us to see time back when the universe began. Although most people “me included “wouldn’t care for such an experiment the dangers are known and are real.

The Hadron Collider is the largest physics project ever. Six Thousand of These scientists are well informed but feel the risk out ways the benefits, " risk destroy the earth, see the second right after the big bang.”

Technical details aside lets just say the people of CERN emit they will create black holes with the Large Hadron Collider " incase you don’t remember black holes devour everything, matter, light etc. And are usually formed when stars implode." But! They say according to Hawking theory “would dissipate in a burst of gamma rays that would be produced by materialization of real particles from virtual particles at the black hole's event horizon.”in other worlds just disappear.
Albert Einstein once said that a zero miscalculated was the biggest mistake of his life in his cosmological equation, he was happy this could not affect the earth. Hawkins theory wasn’t even proven and it forms the back bone of the safety argument of the CERN Large Hadron Collider group.
To add to the danger, the Large Hadron Collider "LHC" cannot produce " calculated" fast as speed of light, which means not only can it produce black holes we are looking at a host of unknown dangers
Most common strangelets & monopoles
Strangelets are moving probably hitting earth right now but because they move at such high speeds are harmless but if strangelets get slown down,” say by a Large Hadron Collider"
We are looking at a danger of being hit by one of these which according to scientist cause nuclei to turn into strange matter. “It’s never happened on earth but on neutron stars yes"

Monopoles are by fact will be created during the experiment but according to the CERN scientist at LHC they believe it will occur but will "will quickly traverse the earth and escape into space" monopoles destroy neurons, commonly found on the Sun.
There other unknown “could be dangerous" black energy, black mass, quintessence, vacuum energy, and many non definitive theories

The CERN study is a remake of a similar study for the earlier Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider at Brookhaven (RHIC) adapted to the LHC. So it’s been done before but not with so much " luminosity"
“Important fact the study at Brookhaven was conducted with guaranteed no black holes, CERN LHC say black holes could be created."

Adrian Kent's admonition on GLOBAL RISKS and science states
Danger to inhabitants of earth should not exceed 0.000001% A YEAR to be acceptable.
Adding all the risks realistic scientist at www.risk-evaluation-forum.org say there is an 11. % to 25. % risk for cataclysmic catastrophe for the CERN Large Hadron Collider experiment. "Even testing it!"

So as the French and Swiss governments push for an activation date and giddy scientist waiting to make history gladly ablige. We as a Human race should not hold our breath. Because even if nothing goes wrong the first test there is an eminent danger as long as the LHC runs. "Not even giving gradual deterioration of facility"( where and tear). Deliberate production of black holes wanted or not should be seriously banned by international law till it has been studied thoroughly or at least when the risk of danger is lowered.
As far as I am concerned those billions should have gone to Anthropological fields and Epidemiological programs to stop the spread of super strains of TB or STAFF or HIV etc ....which still plague our species.

Routers NEWs RePoRTs

On Tuesday, March 27, 2007, there was a devastating explosion deep in the tunnel at the CERN particle accelerator complex that actually blew a 20 ton magnet right off its mountings. The explosion filled the tunnel with helium and forced a mass evacuation of the facility.

Even Dr. Lyn Evans, who heads the accelerator project at CERN said Quote “There was a hell of a bang! “

An investigation by the researchers found that basic math flaws had caused the explosion -- which gives one pause in contemplating how much faith can bestowed upon 6,000 scientists who can overlook basic math mistakes. Not only was this mistake made in the original design phase, but it was also missed on four engineering reviews carried out over a period of four years.

Refference(s)
risk-evaluation-forum.org/anon1.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider
lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/
misunderstooduniverse.com/France_Builds_Doomsday_Machine.htm

Wrong.

Wrong.

Wrong.

Needs citation.

Needs citation.

Wrong. Potential problems are never "real," they are imagined.

Wrong. This is a fringe theory based on the assumption of Extra Large Hidden Dimensions.

Overstatement.

Almost correct. Hawking's result is a theorem and is is robust to many changes of what physical theory is used.

Wrong. Energy and momentum are conserved.

Wrong. He said allowing a paramter to vary from zero was the mistake. Modern cosmology suggests the mistake was assuming it to be zero.

Needs citation.

Wrong. Jim Hawkins is a fictional character. S. Hawking is a famous scientist.

Wrong. The theorem was proven many times.

Wrong. Conservation of angular momentum and GR also play large roles.

Tautology, therefore no reason to take action except to experiment to discover the unknown.

Wrong. They can't be common if they've never been observed.

Wrong. They may be actually harmless.

Citation needed.

Citation needed.

Wrong.

Wrong. Black mass and energy, by definition, can't be dangerous. You can't create vacuum energy.

Or energy.

Wrong. The Brookhaven result stands for CERN as well. Blackholes, as the term is understood generally, have no chance of being formed in CERN. You need a new theory of gravity to allow them to be created, and so the "CERN Black Holes" are not classical Black Holes at all. Indeed, if they have even 1 fermion of spin, they won't form event horizons.

Probably because of all the Extinction-Level-Events which the universe is full of.

Well, they are wrong.

What about the Trillions of dollars which go into making War?

... to equipment and budgets and schedules.

All parts of the tunnel are "deep".

(I) would have very strong reservations on the idea that they could produce anything analogous to a Black Hole in a Collider - given the nature and requirements of the Birthing of a True Black Hole......but (I) too could be wrong.

Will be back to read more ...later.....nice post though, food for thought....

I agree 100% the CERN LHC tests will probably do more harm then good alot more...

I like how some people on this forum like to take a post and qoute it section by section and point out all the flaws and then not add anything useful to the topic besides that the poster above was wrong on xyz accounts...

I guess we really dont have much of a choice tho honestly CERNs LHC is gona go off with a bang. The question is how big will the bang be? I personaly think its gona end up creating an explosion that will probably cause europe to look like a giant hole in the ground... Basicaly I dont see how you can think putting that many magnets/energys into one place and recreating stuff like mini-blackholes is ever a good idea...

.
Let's be realistic.

After expending that 6 billion, does anyone here seriously think that ANYTHING anyone says (no matter how right/wrong) will convince them to pull that project....and admit to having WASTED that 6 billion? I don't think so....after all, we are dealing with HUMANS...and worse...POLITICIANS and VESTED INTERESTS.

Personally, I don't see any danger in the LHC.

Since the 'charge conservation' and 'magnetic/electric' dipole moments/interactions would have TRAPPED (in vast galactic space nebulae and giant stars (as well as MAGNETARS and NEUTRONSTARS) all the COSMIC RAY produced 'micro-holes' ever created.....and there would be hardly anything to 'observe' in our sky NOW.

As for that 'momentum' argument...remember that any micro holes travelling along PARALLEL SPACE PLASMA FLOWS and SPACE MAGNETIC FIELD LINES would accumulate (if they actually exist and can accumulate before 'expiring') matter because they would have no momentum 'differential' to speak of when compared to the flows/lines thay are trapped to 'join' over thousands of light years.

And we observe a dearth of black holes. So nil 'accumulation' is the only possible conclusion.

On balance, there are more arguments against such a PUTATIVE' micro-hole ever being formed...let alone allegedly accumulating as feared.


BESIDES, if LHC DOES produce such things and we all die in a few thousand years, so what?

Atheists will be satified to die 'happy' having 'cracked it'.

While agnostics/and theists will have their 'gods' to receive them in a 'better place' (and if as some think that 'judgement day' is coming in a 1,000 years, then we won't be here to worry about a micro-hole killing us in a few thousand years, hehehe).

Either way, life's a wonderful thing....but BORING if we humans always did the 'sensible' thing! Like the man said earlier, there's WAR to be getting rid of FIRST; then there's possible GLOBAL WARMING 'greenhouse effect' (whatever the cause) to think about over the next few decades....let's worry about something we CAN do something about, eh...and spend our efforts on THOSE 'achievable' things.

But whatever is going to 'get us first', we had better DO something that IS 'doable'....and not waste time trying to convince politicians and vested interests to cancel and write off 6 billion....never happen, no mater HOW 'true' the fears are!

Cheers all; and as the song goes..."don't worry, be happy"!

And as Mr Adams would have it: see ya'll in "The restaurant at the end of the universe", hehehe.

......oh, but don't forget your babbelfish; so we can then all FINALLY 'speak the same language' and at last understand each other and ourselves a little better!

Good luck and good thinking till then, folks!

RC.
.

This post has been edited by RealityCheck on Oct 24 2007, 02:38 AM

I think they will start it, and like all big projects, it will fail to launch.
Then the punch lists will start showing up.

Another delay will then put it into 2008 where the next test fails.

I think maybe in 2010 a real test may show up. AT this point people will complain about the money the money the money the money.

However the startup date will not happen, it is just a hope for the waiting.

I'll bet
and raise you two if you show a good hand on the day it runs.

This post has been edited by rethinker on Oct 24 2007, 04:42 AM

This is dangerous. Clearly the arguments put forward by the safety committee are wrong.

Projects like the transcontinental railroad (pick your continent), the transatlantic cables, The Manhattan Project, D-Day, The Moon Landing, previous incarnations of CERN colliders, Linux and the Internet?

Near-tautology, or are you predicting a specific delay?

What are you saying. People are already complaining. It's a thing people do. Perhaps you meant to say important people will complain, but you fail to understand that CERN is trivially cheap against the world GNP, so it doesn't matter how many complain as long as enough people want to do it.

USD $50 says you are wrong and LHC will have first beams prior to September 1, 2008.
http://lhc-machine-outreach.web.cern.ch/lh...chine-outreach/
http://lhc.web.cern.ch/lhc/
http://foraz.web.cern.ch/foraz/schedule.pdf

Saying so does not make it so. Perhaps the clarity you perceive is a mirage? Why is it neither you, Walter Wagner, nor jdemchenko, can give a physics reason why a collider experiment which is just barely fractionally more than any collider we built before is dangerous when we commonly observe particle with energies many thousands of times higher that LHC is capable of without even a hint that they are dangerous? You are claiming it's endangering the lives of everyone in France to overfeed Americans despite that fact that the Yokozuna has shaken hands with many a Frenchman without statistical effect on mortality.

The only way you promote this danger is by positing a threshold effect which is just beyond our grasp today which someone will cross tomorrow, despite the fact that we have plenty of samples from beyond the threshold. This same argument has been used by fearful deceivers for 195 years.

Change happens and it's not uniformly good or bad. But change teaches us new things, and we can't stop change just by standing still. The world changes about us. To not change is to fail to survive.

The lesson of Icarus is not that innovation is bad, but that unhappy conservative people like to tell fictions about people who aim high.

[Quote] 37 year old ubavondipstick (early 19th Century):

"Stephenson's Rocket is dangerous ..... every passanger will die when its speed exceeds 20mph."

Same old faecal material, spanning 3 Centuries.



This post has been edited by Rabbit on Oct 24 2007, 07:18 AM

the original poster then has a chance to point out all the flaws in the critique, it is not a case of you are wrong and you have no chance of reply.

expert opinion may seem as such, but what does it say about the original post if the original poster can not defend their claims.

me personally, i would expect the experts at CERN to know more about what they are doing than what can be dredged off the net. i would assume that for every meeting on experiment design there would be one on safety, that is if safety is not discussed at the experiment design stage ....

To generate a Black Hole you would need an accumulation of Neutrons, enough that they initiate a 'self collapsing' (Implosive) event.....anyone who knows atomic physics should know that a small quantity of free neutrons - in a small enough space - fast enough - creates-generates a nuclear blast (A Bomb or fission event)...so the little Particles might just be quite a bit more difficult to get assembled into a mass - large enough - fast enough - to get it to generate a Black Hole formative (Collapsing) assemblage....even a Mini one.....

It should also be recalled that these colliding events will be including Protons as a part of the projected mass, they (the protons) would help to stop potential Free neutron formations, as they tend to bind to-with them - somewhat - plus the simplicity of too much positive energy present would work to counteract (Like charge repels) any complete collapsing energy's potential effects.

So, not likely to get-cause even Mini Black Holes....

Yes there may be a (miniscule) risk but this is a violent universe. We won't survive by cowering in ignorance and waiting for the next cosmological cataclysm. The survival of the human race this far is due to hard won knowledge. The same will apply in the future.

I like how rpenner said my description of the LHC structure as stargate like WRONG! When its totally subjective, I could have said it looked like a whales vigina and still be just stating my point of view.... but still many of his corrections were correct or just seemed reworded to look "can I say it" more correct ?
Concerning Hawking
“Wrong. Jim Hawkins is a fictional character. S. Hawking is a famous scientist. “Thanks I should hope you would of understood what I meant next time I’ll be more careful.
Concerning Strangelets
“Wrong. They may be actually harmless” The key word is MAY, Strangelets MAY be dangerous

RealityCheck is the master for he/she delivered the most potent response "there is nothing we can do about it"

If there are any grammatical errors here I apologize in advanced

Also I like to learn more so if rpenner or anyone can explain the ones rpenner wrote as WRONG and gave no explanation id like to read it please.

Clearly the claims of danger are being exaggerated by the alarmists.