Scientific Forums


 

Add reply · Start new topic · Start new poll


> Chemistry and Evolution, Are they universal?
Nick
Posted: Feb 17 2007, 11:43 PM


-- LIGHT FELL --
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 5292
Joined: 3-June 05

Positive Feedback: 58.82%
Feedback Score: -40


If life is based on the same principles of chemistry whatever is possible here will work any place similar. Is our planet different? Is our planet radically different from other life bearing planets? I don't think so.

The soup required for life is everywhere the same. What can happen here can happen anywhere similar.

The forms created by evolution are also universal.

For example I wouldn't be suprised if there were dolphins on every planet (with our level of life.)
Top
Rusty Shackleford
Posted: Feb 18 2007, 12:47 AM


Advanced Member
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 320
Joined: 23-January 07

Positive Feedback: 100%
Feedback Score: 18


I would be very surprised to find dolphin-like organisms on too many planets. In fact I suspect that if life is anything like on Earth, then multicellular life will be extremely rare. In fact, on Earth, the dominant mode of life for the entire history of life has been unicellular. Even today, despite the seeming dominance of multicellular organism, the predominate mode of life is still unicellular. If one examines the history of life, it becomes apparent that multicellular life is a fairly recent anomaly in the overall pattern of life on Earth. In the long run, say another billion years, it may turn out that this whole multicellular "experiment" of evolution was just a fluke and dead end.

for some more reading on this try this article by Gould:
http://www.brembs.net/gould.html


--------------------
http://www.brembs.net/gould.html
Top
kaneda
Posted: Feb 18 2007, 06:13 AM


Nothing is beyond question
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 5044
Joined: 6-November 06

Positive Feedback: 59.46%
Feedback Score: 4


We and other life on Earth was evolved by the gravity we live under, the atmosphere we must breathe, the light we receive and other conditions. On other Earth type worlds, there could be cosmetic differences in species but regarding eyes (2 for stereoscopic vision, as 2 ears for stero hearing), noses (to warm/cool the air we breathe), mouths, legs, etc all will be the same. Bug-eyed monsters are very unlikely without a different evolutionary inperative.

While probably most of the life in the universe is very primitive, lichens, plants, even a small percentage being advanced mammals would be an incredible number. But that does not mean it would be easy to find. Earth has been around for 4,600,000,000 years and civilised modern man for maybe 10,000 years with the electronic age being very recent. Arriving at the right moment to find beings like us would be incredibly difficult.


--------------------
pupamancur is : Rabbit, Dallas, LearmSceince, Gizmo, Gehn, Alpha, BenTheMan, LeTUOtter, Charles Lee Ray and probably others. So little time, so much hate to post.
Top
Pan
Posted: Feb 18 2007, 06:42 AM


Member
**

Group: Members
Posts: 296
Joined: 7-February 06

Positive Feedback: 81.25%
Feedback Score: 13


On a planet with quite like Earth, with a similar history, then it isn't unreasonable to find similarly formed organisms. However, life may not be confined to quite Earth like, and there's no expectation of a similar history.

Even on Earth alone, the examples of convergent, relay, and parallel evolution speak to some forms being likely.

So finding dolphin like species on a planet quite like earth wouldn't be surprising.

Still, you can't draw trend conclusions from one data point.

As for the soup being the same, I don't see why that would necessarily be the case. And for that, we have 0 data points to consider, so...
Send PM ·
Top
MDT
Posted: Feb 18 2007, 08:03 PM


Advanced Member
*****

Group: Power Member
Posts: 1211
Joined: 11-August 05

Positive Feedback: 88.24%
Feedback Score: 17


What seems to suggest that life is very universal is that life is based on H,C,N and O. This is the stuff that first generation stars can make. Once the atoms appear chemistry is quit conservative with respect to the molecules that will form from various combinations of these four elements. Water will definitely form from any cooling mixture of O and H plasma, maybe 99%. One would also expect CH4, NH3, H2O, CO2, CH2O, HCNO, HCN, etc.. What we have are the basic building blocks appearing almost everywhere, as is demonstrated by meteors. Assembly into life requires some additional elements, such as P, Na, K, S, Ca, Mg, Cl, which appear in second generation stars (if one assumes you need super nova to make higher elements than O).

Top
N O M
Posted: Feb 18 2007, 09:17 PM


on holiday, get your abuse elsewhere
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 3691
Joined: 4-December 06

Positive Feedback: 56.72%
Feedback Score: 94


QUOTE (kaneda @ Feb 18 2007, 07:13 PM)
Bug-eyed monsters are very unlikely without a different evolutionary inperative.

I disagree with the bit about the bug eyed monsters.
Evolution works with what it's got. Compound eyes are quite efficient, though maybe not so good for detail. Eyes have evolved in several totally different forms, but it is other physical and physiological factors that would determine what life forms become advanced.


--------------------
Proud owner of negative feedback from: 555Joshua, alokmohan, bee, BigFairy, Bi shadi, Bloy, Bryn Richards, bukh, Confused2, DavidD, deadbeat, Derek1148, eyeque, Farsight, fivedoughnut, freethis, Gizmo, Gorgeous, howtothinklikegod, inQZtive, insight, kaneda, landon, LeTUOtter, Majkl, meBigGirl'sBlouse, Mediocre-Minded, midwestern, Mike Adams, Mirrorman, Morpheus, Mr. Robin Parsons, newton, Nick, on2thiests, oracle1, philip347, PIATLAS, PJParent001, Precursor562, Quatermass, Raphie Frank, reasonwhy, rethinker, Samantha Hildreth, A•SHEOL, Solid State Universe, Soultechs, Squeeze, SteveA2, StevenA, stundie, Sylwester Kornowski, (name removed by request), ubavontuba, vkamath, wbraxtonwilson, xtrmn8r, Zarabtul, Zephir, [please insert name here]

"A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself." - A. A. Milne
Top
Nick
Posted: Feb 18 2007, 09:45 PM


-- LIGHT FELL --
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 5292
Joined: 3-June 05

Positive Feedback: 58.82%
Feedback Score: -40


I THINK BASICALLY LIFE SUPPORTING PLANETS ARE ALL QUITE SIMILAR. SHOW ME WHERE I AM WRONG. IF YOU CAN.

MITCH RAEMSCH -- LIGHT FELL --
Top
Rusty Shackleford
Posted: Feb 18 2007, 11:26 PM


Advanced Member
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 320
Joined: 23-January 07

Positive Feedback: 100%
Feedback Score: 18


Again, if you look at the overall history of life on Earth, bug eyed monsters are the norm. There are many ways life has achieved sight, some bug eyed critters have far superior vision than humans, just look at mantis shrimp. Also, there is no reason to think that life on other planets would be similar to large vertebrates on Earth except on a biochemical level. As pointed out by Gould in the link I posted, for 5/6 of the history of life on Earth, unicellular life forms dominated. It was only in the past 600 or 700 million years that evolution led to multicellular life. Since multicellular life is still less than a billion years old, it could very well end up that multicellular life forms are just an evolutionary experiment that leads to a dead end.

Nick, on what basis do you conclude that:

QUOTE
The forms created by evolution are also universal.


QUOTE
I THINK BASICALLY LIFE SUPPORTING PLANETS ARE ALL QUITE SIMILAR.


This way we can:
QUOTE
SHOW ME WHERE I AM WRONG. IF YOU CAN.


I think I have already given evidence to why you may be wrong. If you would provide some reasons why you think this, we can possibly show where you are wrong. It may well be that you convince me you are right, but without any evidence of why you think the way you do, not even an anecdote, there is nothing to show that is wrong.


--------------------
http://www.brembs.net/gould.html
Top
Gorgeous
Posted: Feb 18 2007, 11:38 PM


An actual person
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2933
Joined: 11-January 07

Positive Feedback: 73.33%
Feedback Score: 51


QUOTE
Arriving at the right moment to find beings like us would be incredibly difficult.


why travel around the galaxy just to find beings just like us? there are plenty of beings just like us being murdered and starved to death every day right here. perhaps we should look out for them first?


g.


--------------------
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts."
(Richard Feynman, The Pleasure of Finding Things Out (1999)

In order to fool others, we must firstly be able to fool ourselves: Who ya gonna fool? ©

If I sit atop a hill looking down into the valley below, I see waves, I feel waves, I smell and hear waves. The crops in the fields below sway in waves just like the water of the ocean does, and sound waves come and go. From this simple and empirical premise alone, the Wave-Structure of Matter is just leaps and bounds ahead in terms of plausible description for that which we observe. It thus comes as no surprise whatsoever, for those whose minds are fixed on Reality, to learn that the REAL 'equations' will also match up...If your 'math' or your 'physics' does not plausibly explain that which we observe empirically, it has not yet reached the same level of understanding that WSM presents: http://www.spaceandmotion.com/
Top
N O M
Posted: Feb 19 2007, 01:16 AM


on holiday, get your abuse elsewhere
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 3691
Joined: 4-December 06

Positive Feedback: 56.72%
Feedback Score: 94


QUOTE (Nick @ Feb 18 2007, 12:43 PM)
The forms created by evolution are also universal.

For example I wouldn't be suprised if there were dolphins on every planet (with our level of life.)

A creature in a similar ecological niche may be similar, in the way that a shark, a tuna, an ichthiosaur and a dolphin are all similar. But if a squid evolved into something that filled this niche, it wouldn't look much like any of the others.


--------------------
Proud owner of negative feedback from: 555Joshua, alokmohan, bee, BigFairy, Bi shadi, Bloy, Bryn Richards, bukh, Confused2, DavidD, deadbeat, Derek1148, eyeque, Farsight, fivedoughnut, freethis, Gizmo, Gorgeous, howtothinklikegod, inQZtive, insight, kaneda, landon, LeTUOtter, Majkl, meBigGirl'sBlouse, Mediocre-Minded, midwestern, Mike Adams, Mirrorman, Morpheus, Mr. Robin Parsons, newton, Nick, on2thiests, oracle1, philip347, PIATLAS, PJParent001, Precursor562, Quatermass, Raphie Frank, reasonwhy, rethinker, Samantha Hildreth, A•SHEOL, Solid State Universe, Soultechs, Squeeze, SteveA2, StevenA, stundie, Sylwester Kornowski, (name removed by request), ubavontuba, vkamath, wbraxtonwilson, xtrmn8r, Zarabtul, Zephir, [please insert name here]

"A quotation is a handy thing to have about, saving one the trouble of thinking for oneself." - A. A. Milne
Top
Zephir
Posted: Feb 19 2007, 03:21 AM


AWT founder
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 9783
Joined: 27-August 05

Positive Feedback: 48.7%
Feedback Score: -71


QUOTE (Nick @ Feb 18 2007, 02:43 AM)
I wouldn't be surprised if there were dolphins on every planet (with our level of life)

From this point of view, the existence of Nick on every planet seems to be undeniable... wink.gif
This experiment is by my opinion pretty close to the real origin of life. It describes the simple oily droplets, which are feeding itself by the soap molecules under motion.
Pretty like the slimes feeded by algaes on the aquarium walls.

user posted image

This post has been edited by Zephir on Feb 19 2007, 03:23 AM


--------------------
Aether in one sentence: The particles of reality are formed by observation of reality through density fluctuations of particles of reality.
Please, have look at my posts history [http://superstruny.aspweb.cz] with full-text search before asking for details. Thank you!
Top
gmilam
Posted: Feb 19 2007, 03:40 PM


This line intentionally left blank
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 3004
Joined: 27-October 05

Positive Feedback: 81.97%
Feedback Score: 89


QUOTE (Nick @ Feb 18 2007, 03:45 PM)
I THINK BASICALLY LIFE SUPPORTING PLANETS ARE ALL QUITE SIMILAR. SHOW ME WHERE I AM WRONG. IF YOU CAN.

MITCH RAEMSCH -- LIGHT FELL --

Let's see your data...


--------------------
"I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused." - Elvis Costello
Top

Topic Options

Add reply · Start new topic · Start new poll


 

Terms of use