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> Making ice without Electricity
Roborro
Posted: Jan 20 2007, 03:03 AM


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I am trying to produce ice like the old days without electricity. I am trying to produce an endothermic reaction. I am trying to use house hold items but when I research what is used all I find is some chemical name that I think it will be hard to find where I live.

Can someone help me.


Thank you

Roborro
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fizzeksman
Posted: Jan 20 2007, 05:41 AM


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Roborro... more information is necessary. What kind of energy source/s do you wish to use? What is your level of mechanical expertise? What are your mechanical resources? What is the average relative humidity where you live?
You can also do a "google search" on ice making and refrigeration cycles which may provide useful information for you.

Cheers

.
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Roborro
Posted: Jan 21 2007, 04:00 PM


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Fizzeksman,

What I want to do is first find out what household materials I can use to turn water into ice. I found this little mixture:
Mixing barium hydroxide solid with ammonium chloride or ammonium thiocyanate
at room temperature leads to a spontaneous reaction that is so endothermic as to
cause water to freeze.
So I need to know where or do I need to change barium hydroxide, ammonium chloride into different products?

I want to take a BIG bowl filled with water add the above and place three different types of bowls on top of the mixture with water in it. I am testing which type of bowl ( glass, plastic, or metal) would freeze the water faster.

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Palpatane
Posted: Jan 21 2007, 04:12 PM


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Do you know how they made ice "in the old days?" They let nature do the work.

In winter, teams of men and horses would go out onto local lakes and rivers and cut out blocks of ice.

They would store these in buildings with three foot thick walls (filled with sawdust), called "Ice houses."

The massive amount of ice and the heavy insulation kept the ice cold through the summer.
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Paradox
Posted: Jan 21 2007, 05:52 PM


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QUOTE (Roborro @ Jan 20 2007, 03:03 AM)
I am trying to produce ice like the old days without electricity. I am trying to produce an endothermic reaction. I am trying to use house hold items but when I research what is used all I find is some chemical name that I think it will be hard to find where I live.

Can someone help me.


Thank you

Roborro

I'M NOT QUITE SURE WHAT YOUR LOOKING FOR, BUT YOU MIGHT USE A GOOGLE SEARCH FOR "GAS REFRIGERATOR" TO GIVE YOU SOME IDEAS, NO ELECTRICITY NEEDED.
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fizzeksman
Posted: Jan 22 2007, 01:59 AM


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Roborro.... Barium Hydroxide is not a household chemical and can be toxic if mishandled. The demonstration you wish to perform is a classic in high school chemistry labs..(check with the local chemistry teacher)... but should be performed under supervision of a competent supervisor at first.
An easy and safe demonstration of the endothermic reaction can be performed using citric acid and baking soda. The strength of the reaction is not as energetic as the one you named but can still demonstrate the principle.

Cheers

.
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N O M
Posted: Jan 23 2007, 12:07 AM


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Once you have made your ice. You can easily make it even colder by mixing the ice with salt and/or alchohol. This can go as low as 0 Fahrenheit.


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N O M
Posted: Jan 23 2007, 12:15 AM


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Here is an example of a safe endothermic reaction. It just involves sodium bicarbonate and citric acid. Don't know if it will cool enough to produce ice.


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physicsguy
Posted: Jan 26 2007, 11:08 AM


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QUOTE (Palpatane @ Jan 21 2007, 04:12 PM)
Do you know how they made ice "in the old days?"  They let nature do the work.

In winter, teams of men and horses would go out onto local lakes and rivers and cut out blocks of ice. 

They would store these in buildings with three foot thick walls (filled with sawdust), called "Ice houses." 

The massive amount of ice and the heavy insulation kept the ice cold through the summer.

Here you go again, speaking out of your defecating hole. You don’t have to try to pretend you
know everything. Really.

If those ancient people had listened to you, they would have been just as idiotic. I understand
that you can’t figure out what I am saying. And, as usual, when that happens you just make a
stupid smartasss remark, to hide your ignorance. Then get your equally annoying friends to back
you up.

If there were “local” lakes, why in the hell would these people go there to supposedly cut the ice.
They could make their own “lake” in their village. Which they did.

If you had a bit more knowledge, instead of textbook quoting all the time, you would have
known that the Persians were using ice a couple of thousand years ago. By having a very deep
enclosed “pool,” where they would fill with a foot or two of water every night, during the
winter. Making ice foot by foot. Then using the, at times 10 meters-thick, ice during the summer.
User posted image
They were called "Yakhchal". Yakh = Ice and Chal = Hole/Cavity, which, incidentally, is what they
call the Refrigerator even today. And, there is a picture of it.
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SomeGuy
Posted: Jan 26 2007, 05:48 PM


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Physicsguy - That is very inaccurate. The Yakhchal was simply their equivalent of an icehouse. They still had to bring the ice into the building from elsewhere. Does it make sense to put water inside an insulated building to freeze it? How would the heat energy be removed from the water to freeze it?

In addition to that inaccuracy, does the fact that the Persians called their "icehouse" a Yakhchal mean that all ice made/stored in the "old days" was made in the same fashion? My own grandfather cut ice from rivers during the cold months just as Palpatane described above. Given the conditions “in the old days” there is bound to be many correct answers.

I am not sure if you are to be taken seriously or not. From the posts of yours I have read I would have to guess you are simply trying to see how long a person can post meaningless personal attacks before being banned. If so then you at least have some goal in mind when you post ill formed arguments based mostly on personal attacks. If this is not the case then you are a very sad specimen.
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Ron
Posted: Jan 26 2007, 06:41 PM


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Back to the original topic,
Roborro, this link will help you understand how a refrigerator works. You'll need some ingenuity to make one with common stuff, but it should be possible.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/refrigerator.htm

I'd have to think pretty hard myself, but I'd start by looking for liquids that boil below 32 deg F, and make some sort of compressor, and a coil to distribute the evaporated liquid.
Good luck,
Ron
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N O M
Posted: Jan 27 2007, 12:54 AM


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QUOTE (SomeGuy @ Jan 26 2007, 05:48 PM)
From the posts of yours I have read I would have to guess you are simply trying to see how long a person can post meaningless personal attacks before being banned. If so then you at least have some goal in mind when you post ill formed arguments based mostly on personal attacks. If this is not the case then you are a very sad specimen.

Took him just under 6 weeks last time.
His last incarnation was "Mediocre-Minded", and mostly posted on the Moon-Hoax thread. This life seems to be devoted to attacking his opponents from that thread.

If you think he is sad now, take a look at some of his posts in his last life. laugh.gif


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Palpatane
Posted: Jan 27 2007, 04:54 PM


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QUOTE (physicsguy @ Jan 26 2007, 05:08 AM)
Here you go again, speaking out of your defecating hole. You don’t have to try to pretend you
know everything. Really.

Blah, blah, blah . . . .

Did you finish your homework and clean your room like your mom asked?

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physicsguy
Posted: Jan 28 2007, 11:39 AM


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QUOTE (SomeGuy @ Jan 26 2007, 05:48 PM)
Physicsguy - That is very inaccurate.  The Yakhchal was simply their equivalent of an icehouse.  They still had to bring the ice into the building from elsewhere.  Does it make sense to put water inside an insulated building to freeze it?  How would the heat energy be removed from the water to freeze it?

In addition to that inaccuracy, does the fact that the Persians called their "icehouse" a Yakhchal mean that all ice made/stored in the "old days" was made in the same fashion?  My own grandfather cut ice from rivers during the cold months just as Palpatane described above.  Given the conditions “in the old days” there is bound to be many correct answers.

I am not sure if you are to be taken seriously or not.  From the posts of yours I have read I would have to guess you are simply trying to see how long a person can post meaningless personal attacks before being banned.  If so then you at least have some goal in mind when you post ill formed arguments based mostly on personal attacks.  If this is not the case then you are a very sad specimen.

Don’t worry about how I deal with certain posters here. Idiots have a say on everything, and
ridicule anyone not agreeing with them. They deserve no respect, and understand only the
language of insult. They also are very quick to run to the Moderator and whine like little boys.
You should see these pretentious individuals’ private messages to me. Insulting, stupid and
immature. Yet, they put on a facade of civility and constraint in the forum.


As for your question of how to bring water or freeze it, or remove the heat energy from the
water. The Persians/Iranians had that figured out 2,400 years ago.

Water from streams/rivers were redirected into the structure during the cold seasons, using
above and underground canals. And, poured of enough dept to be able to completely freeze
overnight.
User posted image
User posted image
Or if the river/stream was frozen, ice was cut and stored. The ice was also used for the making of
Faloodeh, the traditional Persian ice cream. Which is made even today in Iran, and is the
specialty in a town called Shiraz. Red Wine drinkers should be familiar with the Grapes from
Shiraz.

The subterranean space coupled with the thick heat-resistant construction material kept the
outside heat from reaching the interior space year round. These Yakhchals were an Iranian
invention and many remain standing that were built hundreds of years ago.

The Yakhchals were constructed with a special mortar, composed of sand, clay, egg whites,
lime, goat hair, and ash in specific proportions. Which was resistant to heat transfer, and was
thought to be completely water impenetrable. The space often contained a system of
windcatchers, to catch the slightest breeze and funnel it down through internal, vertically placed
wooded slats, that could easily bring temperatures inside the space down to frigid levels even in
summer days. As a result, the ice melted slowly and ice was available year-round.
User posted image
User posted image
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N O M
Posted: Jan 28 2007, 10:59 PM


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QUOTE (physicsguy @ Jan 28 2007, 11:39 AM)
Idiots have a say on everything, and ridicule anyone not agreeing with them. They deserve no respect, and understand only the language of insult.

Interesting point p-g.

I notice that you didn't manage to say anything other than an insult for your first 33 posts. Doesn't that define you as an idiot?


The Iranian angle does shed some light on your hatred of the US, and on your denial of the holocaust.


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