New Twist Double Slit, The RE RE RE visit of an OLD OLD topic

This was posted (prob in the wrong forum) in new theories, reposted here DTF

Double Slit
For those who appreciate this experiment for being the simplest demonstration of the essence of quantum mechanics, I would like to throw a modification into the scheme that I haven’t seen before. I don’t know the answer to this or how to approach explaining it, in terms of conventional QM. It may have been noted earlier by others, if so my apologies. I’m hopeful this forum can elucidate the issue.
The content will also be posted on:
http://www.arxdtf.org/css/slit.pdf
And if there are any good responses I’ll add them there also.

Let us consider not necessarily a slit. But a pair of radio dipoles being driven by a signal generator at a frequency of say, 100 k hertz. The radio pattern generated at a distant point perpendicular to the dipole being the classical double slit.

So as per Dirac The photons generated in the signal generator:

Now let us make a couple of modifications:

1) The signal 100 k hertz generator is being counted down from a cesium clock with a stability of 1 second in 20 million years so the phase is accurate and stable to one wave wavelength per 200 years.

2) The generator for second dipole is replaced with an identical generator with a cesium clock, that is in no way connected to, or coupled with the first.

I think we all agree that there will still be a double slit pattern, rather than the single slit sum. One could disagree with this but I don’t think its really in question. Because of the time stability of the generators the pattern will be constant, at least for a period of many years.

The argument that a photon interferes with it self to create the pattern does not quite hold true in this system, since photons generated by the first generator have no opportunity or probability to exit through the second dipole. In no way are the photons correlated, but the double slit pattern exists. Photons going off at a particular angle from the first dipole cease going in that direction when the second transmitter is activated, yet the photons are not correlated.

Most of the usual arguments regarding the probability distribution including that by Dirac don’t apply.

So what your best explanation for this? DTF

The Aether Wave Theory (AWT) explains the DSE by Newtonian mechanic of energy wave packet spreading through inertial elastic foam. By AWT the vacuum is formed by foamy material, which makes itself more dense by introducing of energy by the same way, like the soap shaken in closed vessel. Each moving particle is therefore surrounded by dense blob of undulating vacuum by the same way, like the fish moving beneath the surface (so called deBroglie wave).



The de Broglie wave interferes with the obstacle into well known flabelliform patterns, which are making the vacuum more dense in the path of maximal intensity profile. Because each particle or photon is formed by standing wave packet, it spreads through foam like wave and it prefers the more dense areas of vacuum, being focused by them. Therefore the particle motion prefers the path of patterns.

The AWT requires no other time or space correlation between movement of individual photons (none the particle "does know" about the others, albeit such assumption has just a limited validity scope from global long term perspective). Because the vacuum is never fully homogeneous, being filled by random density fluctuations, the path of particle in consecutive experiments never remains the very same, from there follows the statistical distribution of particle path.

This post has been edited by Zephir on Dec 25 2006, 07:18 PM

Hi dtfroedge and Zephir et al,

I am the "resident elf" around here so you will need to take what I say with a degree of caution.

Experiments have been performed with "correlated sources". The results have been similar to that from a single source that can interfere "with itself" through two slits. Dirac was right to say that each individual photon only interferes with itself and with no other photons. We know this with the experiment being performed using individual correlated photons ... one at a time through slits. There is a subtle point that any number of photons in the same state can occupy the same place at the same time because these are bosons. Even though photons cannot interfere with any other photons they can "sum" with other photons and yet still retain their individual independence. The subtlety is energy from a photon that comes from a single atomic" source is not able to exchange energy with another photon from a different source since each individual photon has come from a distinguishable source so they are individually not "born" in the same causal event. Improving the correlation of the signal will not change this basic process (just as well) nor will collimation or side-lobe suppression. I do not think the separation of sources is a feature if it is possible to connect the sources in exact phase (this is no mere accident is it?). The correlation will occur through the neutral scalar potential which is the primary way in which correlation will occur "globally". This is the "Aharonov-Bohm Effect". It is something that cannot be shielded and if the two sources are coherent and you have found some way to accurately correlate them they will link via this Universe-wide topological global phenomena.

The Aharonov-Bohm phenomenon applies not just to charged particles but equivalent phenomena such as the Aharonov-Cashir and the Aharonov-Anandan Effects show this is a general principle that applies to our entire universe in general. This is connected with Berry Phase or Geometric Phase. All these effects are distinctly "topological" in nature. If you create the right "topology" the effect will be there and it is entirely non-local.

I take a less severe interpretation in that it is indeed a "semi-classical" effect and related to the geometric phase which results in the appearance of electric and magnetic "stressors" in the brane of the Universe. If you consider your sources and a cavity in which this phenomena is to interact (and there always is one)... At a fixed frequency and constant source phase, there will exist (at least in potential) an number of resonant standing waves which are a function of the geometry of the cavity alone and not related to any specific excitation. These patterns are solutions of Schrodinger's Wave Equation in the volumetric space. I have an image that has been taken from a source...

So while this correlation still occurs interference is still a one on one process and relates to these "interferences" that occupy the space in which the photons are all moving. I am of the opinion that permanent charge is also a topological effect...
Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology?:J.G. Williamson(a) and M.B. van der Mark(
I would add that I would "expect" this principle to extend to "higher dimensions" rather than any attempt to fit this within a three dimensional "flatspace". While all this is not strictly classical it is not strictly quantum mechanical either.

The last point is that I believe that individual photons spread in the same fashion that dipole radiation spreads and so interference through slits is easy since the size of this photon "shadow" eclipses both slits easily. Photons will always pass through two slits in the classic Young's Double Slit Experiment due to classic spreading. This is also confirmed with simple experiments. The basis of all this single photon interference is the theory of sources shown here...
Three Experiments in One
The Fraunhofer Plane

You may also wish to read or additionally contribute to this thread...
Problem with the two slit experiment, Observing later

Cheers

Hi dtroedge,
I'm not sure you're going to like this..
At 100kHz you need loads of photons to get any sort of signal. The destructive interference could just be that one photon from one dipole bumps the aerial potential up a bit and a photon from the out of phase dipole knocks it down again .. interference of a sort but not quite the same as the optical version of the DSE with photomultipliers.

The experiment here
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s...periments.shtml
and in particular the result here ..
http://www.teachspin.com/instruments/two_s..._combiplot2.gif
shows how the photon counts fall to zero (nearly) at points of destructive interference and the photons that should have been there turn up in the bright bits.
If you had two phase locked lasers (I assume that's possible) you could offset one or both so the bright bits of the one fell where the dark bits of the other were (I can't see any reason not to use the same set of slits twice) My guess is that you'd just get a superposition of the one pattern on top of the other. If you cut down the intensity and tried to do counts .. immediately one can see it would be very difficult to get a photon from each into the game at the same time On the occasions when you got two photons together .. I've got enough problems with the 'straight' DSE already!

Best wishes,
-C2.

Confused2 et al
You may find this post interesting
Hans de Vries --- Physics Forums

For recent proof of two-photon interference see here:

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0603048

Which was published in PRL 96, 240502 (2006) and mentioned in this thread:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=124474
Hans
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.ph...43&goto=newpost

The resulting pattern wouldn't depend on the actual passing of particle through some particular hole. All the particles in the experiment can pass through single hole, in fact - just the presence of other open hole will cause the formation of DSE patterns.

Sorry .. posted on the wrong thread.

This post has been edited by Confused2 on Dec 27 2006, 11:14 AM

Good Elf:

I don't see how photons coming from separate generator can be "born in the same causal event". The generators can be built independently, located separately, and so long as the phase relation between the generators is constant, which will be true if their frequencies are exact, a two slit pattern will be generated . From the dipole there will be an angle, where there is a photon flux, when one generator is on, but is absent a photon flux, when both generators are on. If at a given angle there is never a flux it seems to me that the photons didn't just add up, but added out

To me this is just magic. non local action at a distance is easy to say but is just a word substitute for "I don't have a clue". I don't think this is what Dirac had in mind when he stated that photons only interfere with themselves. How two generators potentially miles apart can conspire to generate a single photon that interferes with itself in a slit pattern does not make sense.

What it says is to me is as in the Bell experiment, we understand the math, we don't understand the phenomena. Like the Bell inequality, and the "Aharonov-Bohm Effect" the math is simple, but thats all that is simple. DTF

Photons are waves. Asking how big is a photon is the same as asking how big a wave is. A tsunami is one wave. Drop a lump of sugar into coffee and you get another wave. So how big is a wave and how big is a photon? At what point do they actually become indivisible?