Particles have mass, HOW?, Higgs or ?

nobody,

I guess you are now a candidate for the upcoming, novel best seller. 'What Matters'?

maybe you should catch a ride with the Y.

Face it Y

Hello Zephir, & Good Elf,

Zephir:

Zephir,

You bring in another example that still does not deal with the field of the Higgs.

We all know if you bring two flat, parallel metal plates close to one another, you will find that they are pulled together or pushed apart -- that is, the exert equal and opposite forces on each other. If the plates are not at the same electrostatic potential, charges on the surfaces (charges in a conductor always go to the surface) will either attract or repel one another depending on whether the plates are oppositely or similarly charged.

Zehire the electric force is usually a strong one, and varies relatively slowly with the distance between the plates. If the temperature is above absolute zero, the electrons in the two plates will be more or less mobile, and move about randomly. The resulting fluctuations in their density will give the same effect as a positive or negeative charge, which will attract or repel electrons in the other plate. Zehire this is important the weak, temperature-dependent force is similar to the van der Waals forces between two uncharged atoms. It decreases rapidly as the plates are separated.

This is maybe a lose translation, but darn close......

In my part of the world we have a saying! Keep apples to apples and oranges to oranges. This is not the same phenomena, Zephir.

Best,
darkmatters73

Oh, I did not mention the Y, I dare say she/he is history. Like in gone for good.

darkmatters73

The smallest possible particle is nothing more than a space/timer vortex draining the ether to some other side/universe and this flow of ether is what can be perceived as gravity giving that tiny particle mass.Pressure fluctuations in the ether are like waves on water and if two not on the same plane meet,they create a vortex and matter pops up into existence all depending of course at what angle relative to each other they collided at.The only thing that really exists is the ether,and energy and matter are just the ether being disturbed from total rest where you would say that it's at equilibrium relative to itself

Well, not exactly - the smallest possible particles are just the waves of the spacetime alone, so called preons, i.e. graviton wave packets. The vortex nature of Aether requires the existence of particles, which are behaving like the massive particles in fluids. The rest is the very same as the basic conclusions of the Aether wave theory

Hi Zephir, & Quantumbrujo,

Kudos, when you get to generic particles, (leptons & quarks) they are waves. We tell students the particle/wave theory so there minds do not fry.

We agree, hope the vortex does not collapse. Wow.

Best,
darkmatters73

The gravity vortex collapse is limited both by quantum effects (i.e. resonance), both by kinetic reasons (decreasing the overall energy transfer speed across heavily convoluted space), but the most important limit is the minimization of action principle, i.e. topology. The 6D convoluted space has no reason to collapse anymore by such a way, its vortex are conditionally stable.

Thanks Zephir,

What I should have said, when you get down to the quantitative matter you have a wave effect.

I believe that is why students think that light has mass.

But what Quantumbrujo might be going, but not sure is like in the Super String-t, sometimes gravity is compared to a pencil (being G) going through pages of paper (dimensions).

Not bad way of looking at it, so Higgs could very well be a product of such a four dimensional concept.

Best,
darkmatters73

But the light (...the photons, be more specific) HAS the mass, just it hasn't the rest mass having no fixed position - so its mass/energy is spreaded across the light path.... The kinetic energy of light is a quite well pronounced (see the Crookes's radiometer, for example) and employed in solar sails...



Nevertheless, the energy of high frequency light (like gamma and cosmic ray in particular) exhibits a pronounced massive behavior and persistent changes to the vacuum (light absorption in vacuum by making particle-antiparticle pairs, autofocusation of light and even the nonzero effective cross-section of photon-photon interactions, as an example).

I'll explain all these effect in more detail later, as they're closely related to my understanding of the mass and energy quantities.

Hi zephir,

The Crooke's Radiometer does not work by the methods that you suggest. Others (as a refresher) please look at this reference.
How does a light-mill work?
A test of the principle of "Solar Sails" was attempted recently and there was a lot of "critical output" on this issue on the concept of using light as a means of motive force. The experiment failed due to technical reasons. Undoubtedly there is a small effect... not because light has mass but because light can exchange momentum. Force over a period of time imparts an impulse to an object (or "boost")...

As you would recall Impulse is the change in momentum and Einstein's Photoelectric Equation (the Nobel prize one) is...

where...

the units of h-bar being "impulse'... where you have that impulse is the change in momentum ...

Solar sails will probably work not so much because of a stream of photons which have a very tiny "impulse" to impart but because of the stream of a very "heavy" (relatively speaking) continuous flow of mostly hydrogen nuclei streaming from the Sun (ionized hydrogen, protons, helium nuclei and electrons)... the "solar wind". That is the phenomenon that is what actually makes comets tails point away from the Sun.

As to the true nature of the Radiometer... it has been proven to just not work at all in a hard vacuum... dispelling the myth of photon pressure alone causing it to spin. It obviously has something to do with the dynamics of the enclosed gas in the glass envelope. A lot of "kids" grow up thinking this instrument is a demonstration of photon pressure (that is what their teachers told them).... well even if photons have pressure due to their planckian impulse it is "minuscule".

It is an example (IMHO) of the nonsense "taught" today in schools and in Universities and this has a very powerful influence over their impressionable minds. In my day my teachers used the cane... he he he! (I got quite a few beatings and they only taught me to mistrust authority)... but this other "subtle teaching technique" works much better than "carrots" and achieves the desired result... conformity. I particularly remember how one teacher gave me the "customary" beating and confiscated a small bar magnet I had brought to school... being a "distraction". I am happy that I do not "conform" nowadays. See... I benefited from those beatings.

While "the truth is out there" ... "trust no one" and think for yourselves. A "healthy paranoia" helps concentrate the mind wonderfully. There is a lot of nonsense out there in teaching systems (all of them) and it is screwing up young minds.

As yquantum would say...

Hurry up and get well yquantum.

Cheers

That sounds brilliant!

Solar sails have been proven to work, solar light pressure has move satellites and has been used to control rotation on Mariner 10. laser experiments have lifted solar foils in a space vacuum proving that light can move matter and that the "solar wind" has nothing to do with this effect. Concerning the Crookes radiometer function in deep vacuum, consider the principle of Nichols radiometer

Only massive particles/waves can exchange momentum, no question about it. Suppose the light have no mass, it will be a violation of the Einstein's equivalence principle and E=mc^2 equation. Strange enough, even You're spreading theory the "electron is the close-looped photon", here....

Hi zephir,

As I said... solar sails "do" work but not primarily because of light pressure but by "Solar Wind".... The radiometer (as it is built) does not work in a "hard vacuum". Yes light can move matter... very tiny bits of it. It is useful for propelling particles of dust out of the solar system but the "Solar Wind" does better.

The closed loop photon is not my theory. While I admire the basic concept the original authors of the paper do not agree with the "spin" I wish to put on this point (they have been on this forum a couple of months ago). This is in the form of a "String Theory" in six extra real dimensions.

The dimensional electron cavity gives the external "appearance" of the topological photon "mass" (6 dimensional curvature) as per de Broglie's Paper.
Comptes rendus - Louis de Broglie 1923
The "effect" on space-time (3D + T) is as a sort of "shadow". Space-time does respond a teeny bit but for this extreme curvature you need an easily constructed cavity. It should also have the property of self-assembly... this will happen if you think about it (ignoring CPT).
On the "interior" the photon is in a dimensionally closed "flat-space" and "does not know that it is going in a "circle" and so knows nothing about the "Bohr Orbit" or it's "externally observed" charge, magnetic moment or the mass. This is all due to observations from the "appropriate" external frame of reference. The "electronic structure of atoms" is only "externally" observed and it is not charge but topology that keeps the electron in "orbit" or traps photons as well by the same mechanism.

Here are the images from the paper on the electron...

Notice how the negative charge from the dynamic electromagnetic wave is wrapped to the outside of the "electron" everywhere and the positive charge is on the interior. This would cause enormous "self energies" if such charges "really" existed inside electrons. From the point of view of electrons the self repulsion goes to infinity at the center of the electron.. an obvious absurdity but it is current theory. Current theory suggests that to have a dipole moment it needs some physical size but this is not seen in 3D + T where it is only a "shadow" on "Space-time". The cavity is not inside our "space".

The paper does not say exactly "why" the photon "chooses" to move in a double loop and not self repel. The original authors are promising a different explanation at a later time.

The paper on the whole is quite "brilliant". Just need added dimensions and de Broglie's "relativity"...
Is the electron a photon with toroidal topology? J.G. Williamson et al.
They published from the Louis de Broglie Institute quite appropriately... he he he! Great man and a complement to Einstein's Theory (the missing bit of this jigsaw).

I suggest that everyone look at these following two references to see "electromagnetic circuits" and "physical systems" that mirror the true processes inside atoms (at the Quantum Electrodynamic level of our Universe)..
Circuit QED Project - photon in a can.
And nature does Fourier Transforms too... naturally...
Light's Clock and an analog system like atomic "shells".
That gives you all the operational experimental background you all need to put it together in your own minds.

The Quantum Chromodynamic level is just the next level of abstraction "down". The "Higgs" fits into this picture "like a glove".

Cheers

Something else you can check into Zephir?

Good Elf, Zephir, &dm73,

Good Elf, when I am away things happen I am beginning to take it personal. HA!

Excellent GE on your explanation. Not ganging up on you Lephir just fact.

We can still stay focus & on the path here which I am very glad. [Oh, feel much better, thank you GE].

One of the reasons for the different masses which comes in a variety as we know. Through experiments with different kinds of particles interact more or less strongly with the Dirac Sea/Higgs Ocean.

~ In general locally gauge the complete 15 parameter massless conformal group to get all relevant space-time compensating gauge force fields rippling through the post-inflationary calm macro-quantum coherent non-random Higgs Ocean that emerges from the incoherent random unstable pre-inflationary choppy micro-quantum Dirac Sea. ~

When a particle moves through the Dirac Sea/Higgs Ocean it is interfered with due to mass, when © moves, it moves smoothly through the Dirac Sea/Higgs Ocean with no interaction it has no mass, there is no drag example again, the photon!

The © photon is a good example because it passes completely unhindered. POINT: NO MASS!

Check it out with top/quarks or any other particle with mass going through DS/H, if you have mass, it would be like going through Boston at rush hour with swarming cars everywhere. Yet the photon © moves as if the streets are clear of traffic as far as the eye can see. We have 95 percent confindence that the Higgs has been seen. That is where the BIG BUCKS are going to pay off, with LHC/CERN this is of extraordinary importance of the Higgs. You see it is not a matter [pun] what the yquantum has to say, it is just a very HOT subject going on right now.

ciao_
yquantum

Hi yquantum,

Agreed... but it will take a day or two to work out fully just what you said there.

Good to see you back "on deck". Are you back to enjoying yourself on the slopes yet or still a bit "wobbly"?

I think I was "polishing off" when you answered... have a look at those last references too. It is real physics without the LHC but it demonstrates some vital principles IMHO. I will consider what you said and drag myself back on course. I have become "higgledy-piggedly".

When you say the Higgs has been "seen" this surely would be an "interior" process because of the times involved?

Cheers