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Tachyon8491
The incredible sadness of the non-evolutionary viewpoint

The acidly confrontative polarisation, mutual anathematisation and destructive criticism between evolutionism and creationism is a pathetically unnecessary dynamic. I mention them as fields, -isms, but these are people, human individuals with feelings, hearts and spirits, sensitivities, with world-models that cannot find the underlying wholeness that binds these in a deeper resolutive harmony which they wish not to see, or cannot see, and do not wish to subscribe to. The conflict catalysed by these two major disparate interpretations of cosmic causation have caused more pain, isolation, dissolution, human misery and mutual disablement than pandemic disease.

Until the underlying wholeness that unifies these disparate facets is actually seen and understood in mass consensus, this conflictive dynamic will continue to injure and disable the highest human potentials - those that can only be achieved in the consonant synergy of mass-social concordance. Any social system which is marked by acutely conflictive streams of interpretation of reality and the nature of being, pertinently lacks the mutual sensitivities to maximally integrate the incredible potentials intrinsic to human variety. An acutely conflative fault here is to see this variety itself as well represented by the disparity between evolutionism and creationism - in a lack of understood commonality between these two, they cannot address the same tonality - in their vision, they are chords too different to form a music, but only offer the potential for chaotic cacophony. Yet this is eminently dissolvable, a resolvable issue. It is resolvable by encountering, seeing and understanding their underlying unity - those aspects which do not divide the interpretations but unify them, that do not contrast but synergise, do not conflict but mutually reinforce.

These unifying aspects, interpretations in themselves, do exist - they are there to see for anyone who has the daring to venture beyond their programmed paradigms.

L.C. Birch wrote in 1965 that: “No reconciliation is possible between religious fundamentalism and modern science.” I completely disagree with this absolutist view. I disagree for several reasons, and reasons that have taken on the most personally vital meaning to me - it is for this too, that I spent more than twenty years researching in all domains of the scientific and esoteric explorations of reality and spent a year writing my book The Nature of Being ©, 530 pages with 176 illustrations and 2871 index entries - a summary of my dedication to resolve this saddest of unnecessary conflicts.

Birch was right in only one sense: there are those individual minds and spirits so unilinearly entrenched that they cannot and will not see the underlying concordance and unifying synergy in this lifetime. Yet there are many others, I am convinced, who strive for this releasing consonance. This striving on their part, is not just a quest for comprehension beyond the understood limits of their present knowing, but also a dedication, the giving of their open receptivity in the knowledge that anything less than this is a self-disabling closedness that can only mean static subscription, and never enable and catalyse the growth offered by personal discovery.

Birch was right only in his implicit identification of that group of minds and spirits so protective of and addicted to the safety of their comfort zones that it is far too conflictive, frightening or even traumatic to dare stepping outside them for even a moment. More, every encounter with a contrasting view is an attack on the comfort of their subscribed worldview and is seen to need urgent defence, counter-attack or preemption. Choice of the mode of inter-reaction in these encounters of acutely differing view almost automatically leads to levels of interaction well beyond polite debate and polemic. No wonder - unless one or more of the discussants involved do somehow during their interaction discover the underlying and unifying aspects of commonality, the dynamics of their information interchange will likely escalate to mutual prescription and proscription, mutual aggression, ad hominem attacks and progressively accumulating lack of mutual receptivity. It is very likely that in the perceived need to defend the comfortable paradigm, a positive feedback comes into operation which makes the conflictive stance more conflictive and progressively retards any potential of resolutive insight. The polar options then remaining are either parting in mutual disrespect and enmity, or, the most civilised option, mutually respectful agreement to disagree. The latter is difficult in many circumstances, as perceived cognitive intransigence, impressions of obtuseness and other negatively perceived aspects of cognitive and attitudinal ability, do not lead to respect but instead to a depreciative picture of the "opponent." Surely a pity that in these circumstances most cannot apply "an opponent is a friend you have never met," and mutually keep such a dedication consistently intact.

In the face of a provably resolvable issue, the levels of frustration due to perceptions of obtuse intransigence and lack of receptivity can easily trigger stronger polarisation and enmity. Even when the initial phase of a potentially resolutive dialogue seems constructive, mutually receptive and respectfully contrasting, it may take only one of the debaters to take exception to a percept, make an ad hominem remark, and to effectively spoil any nurturable potential for future concordant insight.

What is at stake here is enormous and cannot be overstated. As such, the issue cannot be done justice in a few paragraphs and this is indeed why I wrote a 530 page book largely concerned with that as a central issue. Nevertheless, it is an issue dedicating a life to - and in the understanding that this is not with the goal of one camp winning out and emerging victoriously in total vanquishment of the other view - far from that, instead, it is the sacred personal ambition to reach a unification, a resolutive, consonant, harmonic union in a win-win accomplishment. This is not impossible at all - every single necessary fact to enable and reach such a unification exists in a deeper investigation, and they exist in abundance.
It is time that it was achieved - for millennia the conflict has been there: Augustine of Hippo (354-430.) adhered to neoplatonism and manicheism which both strongly believed in reincarnation, yet he too, later expressed suppressive and regressive thought about scientific development as evinced in his “City of God:” “Let Thales depart with his water, Anaximenes with the air, Epicurus with his atoms...” All the immense Greek discovery is to him paganly tainted, ‘'prostituted with the influence of obscene and filthy devils.’ Excluding the three centuries before the present, the Greek Heroic Age of science was the only cumulatively developmental period of scientific and philosophical thought. In the fifth century BC the educated classes knew that the Earth spun on its axis and was a spherical body floating in space, a thousand years later they thought it was a flat disk. It took a while for suppressed rationality to recover from witch-hunts and the imposed paradigms of the irrational.

Paul Tillich, (1886-1965) who was more a theologian than a scientist stated: “The first step towards non-religion of the Western world was made by religion itself. This was when it defended its great symbols, which were its means of interpreting the world and life, not as symbols, but as literal stories. When it did this it had already lost the battle.”

In contrast, evolutionists have it wrong when they become scientistic and neuricentric, regarding consciousness as an epiphenomenon, and think that evolutionary mechanisms are not driven by an immanently divine creative agency.

Religionists have it acutely wrong when they think that creation can at all occur without an evolutionary mechanism.

In both these cases the adherents of these often self-entrenching views are relinquishing their intellectual and spiritual potentials to ostrich-syndromes of the most seriously disabling calibre.

There is only one ultimate reality - looking into this multifaceted single crystal through only a single facet, or a few select facets, gives just a faceted view, by definition one that is selective in its non-relations and omissions of percept, missing stimuli that disallow more complete modelling, lack of perceptual depth and holisticity. These omissions are user-transparent, not known, nor felt as missing, and, only capable of being imagined, are therefore regarded as being imaginary when presented for inspection by others in whose world-model they form indispensably integrated percept.

What pertinently stands out, is that in this conflictive equilibrium of opposing views, what the one camp can accuse the other of in deficient perception and defective cognitive processing, the other can be accused of exactly and quite symmetrically. This of course does not reflect on intrinsic correctness of percept in either view!

The problem, if indeed we regard it as such and wish to mediate it with resolutive input, is one hinted at earlier - missing percept, incomplete modelling, but also acute mismodelling and severe conflation. Again, each camp accuses the other easily of these deficiencies.

We may even ask, "what is it that one can see so easily, be so utterly convinced of in abundant evidence, and another appears to be utterly blind to, cannot be brought to see or understand, and vehemently resists in making part of their world-view and interpretation of reality?" And again, either camp may pose that question to the other. This remains true even when deep, serious academic study has been made of topics and fundamentals concerned.

In that context there are some important permutations of involvement of either proponents in the other camp's domain of source precepts, objective study of their perceptual manifest and all the documenting and source materials that support their views. We have those who have never made a serious study attempt in the source domain of either camp and just adhere to their closest paradigm (often via familial nurturing or educational milieu via a concerned and caring or even coercive programming, incidental or deliberate,) that has not been subjected to critical analysis. We also have those who have seriously studied source material supportive of their own view only and only had shallowest involvement in that of the other camp. Lastly we have those who have made a serious study of evolutionary mechanisms, studied the available evidence, related fields of which there are several of great importance, techniques, systems and phenomenology, and, also studied comparative religion, the historical development of religions and sects, fundamental religiophilosophical percepts and precepts, and the psychology and sociopolitical implementations of the religious drive. It is logically only the latter who are in the best position of objectivity to reach balanced conclusions.

It goes further than this still of course - and enters a domain of psychology and spirituality that is beyond concordant social resonance, paradigmatic consensus and doctrinal adherence, but deeply personal in its relation between the individual and cosmic reality. It is in this area we may agree, that there are various levels of maturity of insight in any subject domain, ranging from shallowest infantilistic naivete to highest and informed analytical objectivity. This we may refer to as psychospiritual maturity and encounter contrasting levels of in whoever we communicate with. It would be highly chauvinistic to speak of lesser and greater in these abilities - after all other mediating approaches there is only one ultimate equaliser and this is love and its dedications, in its acceptance of differences in both category and degree. When it comes to understanding, there are always those beyond us and those whom we are beyond - and of course this is paradoxically often a mutual feeling!

Without going into a minimal presentation, which I at the time judged to require at least the 530 pages I composed to present the evidence, I will present some conclusions here at least and offer this for fruitful meditation: evolution and creation are not at odds with each other where it really counts - the evolutionist can retain all faith in, and understanding of evolutionary mechanism in all domains of cosmic ontogeny, from original cosmic nucleosynthesis to moleculosynthesis, stellar formation and the formation of galactic superclusters, from the evolution of eukaryotes by nucleic integration of prokaryotes' genomes, phylogeny by anagenetic and cladogenetic dynamics and to the culmination of the vast cerebral potential that we now have available and often anthropocentrically regard as unsurpassable. Yet, and here is the contrast, the evolutionist must also grant the operation of creative agency and to regard this as mechanistic and non-divine would be an incomparable obtuseness of vision. Simultaneously, in any but the shallowest study of evolutionary mechanism and abundantly available evidence, the creationist should at least make a serious study of available evidence (such as Evolution; Ridley, Mark (Oxford Readers;) (1998) Publ.; Oxford Press. ISBN: 0192892878) and must see the undeniable operation of evolutionary dynamics - dismissing these is like looking into the mirror and denying the existence of your nose.

In short, there are only creative evolution and evolutive creation - and these two are the same and identical. In the question of the form of divinity immanent in our cosmic existence, we are suffering much from mythically derivedreligionistic legacies of the past, subjectively inspired interpretations, artificed syntheses and the dogma that has sprung from them.

As just one example, from The Nature of Being, copyright © 2003 Frank Valentyn, Part Two, Chapter Ten, The Edge of Ambiguity, p 281:

Quote:
"Pelagius (360? - 420?) believed in the infinite energy of nature, repeatedly and absolutely denied the existence of “original sin,” thought baptism was abysmally unnecessary, protested the concept of a primitive state in paradise, and insisted that strong feelings of physical desire were quite naturally human... One of Pelagius’ main attackers happens to become St. Augustine. Converted from his earlier neoplatonism and manicheism, he now believes absolutely in original sin (having proved the existence of it without the merest shadow of doubt in his “De peccatorum meritis et remissione libri III,” and “De spiritu et litera”,) and consequently the indispensability of infant baptism, the omission of which, “excludes both from the “kingdom of heaven” and from “eternal life.”
End of Quote

The principle of "original sin" was not one of the earliest formative principles of the Christian religion - it is syntheses like these that lead to the worldview of humans enslaved to external cause, damned to the dour humanoid existence of predestination and original sin that Calvin preached, even from the moment of their conception.

I find it a great pity that on this so reputable and prestigious site dedicated to scientific exploration and the greater meaning of the scientific method, there is so much evidence of a blinkered and obtuse conflict between evolutionism and creationism - yet one more evident symptom in the enormous historical set of precedents already inflicted on Humankind, of the fact that the force most dedicated and designed to unify and harmonise, has in its human implementations led to the greatest divisiveness and division, and contributed to the murderous expressions of ethnocentricity, xenophobia, mutual suppression and disablement and genocidal destruction based on religio-cultural initiatives.

In this regard and the manner of frictional dialogue taking place here we might quote George Santayana: “Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim.” (Life of Reason, 1) Of course, to somewhat tangentially paraphrase Santayana, those who allege adhering to consistently well-remembered aims may in the redoubling of their efforts never glean the merest glimpse of the aims of others.

Also, from The Nature of Being, copyright © 2003 Frank Valentyn, Part One, Chapter Six, The Edge of Ambiguity, pp 137, 138:

Quote:
Lamarckism propounded the view that species' adaptation to changing environment took place by a mechanism of use and disuse of physiological structures. That these adaptations were heritable seemed acceptable in its proposed mechanism of evolution until Mendel's laws of genetic heritability were acceptably proven. In a simple view of this, a structure such as the vermiform appendix in humans which was a fully functional organ in an herbivorous precursor of humans has reduced in size due to a lack of functional need and usage.

Lamarck anticipated the work of the early cytologists, the botanist Jakob Schleiden and the physiologist Theodor Schwann, by his insight that: “…no body can have life if its constituent parts are not cellular tissue or are not formed by cellular tissue.” Lamarck also mentioned the concept of natural selection in his work but did not elaborate on it and probably did not attach much relevance to it.

The Scottish geologist Sir Charles Lyell (1797-1875), in his research of ancient Western European marine beds noticed that the more recent biostratigraphic layers closer to the surface contained a higher proportion of the fossils of living molluscs than lower layers. These lower layers which contained progressively fewer such recent fossils contained progressively more primitive fossil species. This observation, bolstered by other geological evidence that countless millions of years were required to explain the observed structure of the Earth, instantly removed the view that the Earth was divinely created in 4004 BC and uncoupled the study of terrestrial development from biblical chronology. Both Lyell and Lamarck realised the ancient origin of the Earth. Lyell however, proposed multiple centres of species origination and at different times in the Earth's history, contradicting such theories as the “one pair of each species in one place” creation held by Carolus Linnaeus, father of the natural classification system, or the “simultaneous proliferation” creation view of the naturalist Louis Agassiz, who believed that multiple individuals of each species had been simultaneously created.

Darwin, in his epic five-year voyage on the research and surveying ship “Beagle” noticed a distribution of related species which were geographically separated, also that there were fossils of allegedly extinct species which bore close resemblance to still living species. Each island in the Galapagos group having its own unique finches, tortoises and species of flora, he saw the possibility of a common progenitor of each species arriving thousands of years ago and by some selective mechanism, such as the specific ecology of each separate locale, and the competitive pressure of other species present, giving rise to the structural and behavioural differences in the forms of a species that he observed. As an example, among the fourteen species of finch presently on the Galapagos, differences in their feeding habits are indicated by beak structure that is optimised for fruit, seed, insect, or cactus eating. Among these are further adaptations, in their roles as tree or ground dwelling finches. The ancestral finch with a short, conical beak optimised for seed crushing diversified over thousands of years by selective adaptation, giving rise to forms that were ideally suited for viable exploitation of their local ecological circumstances.

Applying the British economist Thomas Malthus's theory of population balancing pressures to the tendencies of species development, Darwin derived the theory of natural selection as proposed in his “Origin of Species.” The naturalist Alfred R. Wallace had independently pursued a similar natural selection approach, detailed in his manuscript: “On the Tendency of Varieties to depart Independently from the Original Type.” Darwin's friend, Sir Charles Lyell arranged the reading of both papers at an 1858 meeting of the Linnaean Society.
End of Quote

Ultimately an ideal stance towards our mystical cosmic infinitude is a more consensual, less divisive worldview, beyond geo-cultural divides, and a Weltblick obtained from a holistic and unifying convergence, derived from a religious science, and a scientific religion. Presently that may sound like a utopian ideal. Science and scientists may deny the useful or even possible integration of a perceptual conception of divinity in the scientific method, as much as religions and the religious may insist on the impossibility of being scientific in percepts bolstering their beliefs. Yet these are habitual leanings, perpetuated vectors of interpretation, paradigmatic approaches that can, truly, be ascended, spiritually and intellectually evolved beyond. I appeal humbly to you to inspect that possibility. Marine taxonomic genetics or human neurochemistry or for that matter geophysics are as divinely sacred, as the true perception of the divine nature of being is scientific in all, and in its deepest senses.

Frank Valentyn
littleread
My what big teeth you have ohmy.gif
Guest
The better to bite your silly head with biggrin.gif
Insyght
And your point is? laugh.gif
MarkG
A very precise description of my tenet Tachyon8491. The disheartening reality of it all is in the dogged adherence of those who's education concluded with one "Book" and their inability to continue the search for truth.
Tachyon8491
Thanks for the concurrence Mark, it's heartening. Many spend generously dedicated energy and time preaching to the blind and deaf - history abounds with them. Such a one was also the Italian Renaissance philosopher Giordano Bruno, burnt at the stake by the Catholic Church in 1600. Bruno believed in the infinity of the universe, insisted that the divine (god, if one prefers) is the universal world-soul, and that all material particular things were the manifestations of one primary infinite principle. Bruno is regarded as an important forerunner of modern philosophy as he anticipated theories of monism. Bruno influenced Spinoza who taught that material and spiritual things were attributes of one underlying substance. Spinoza did not use the term, monism was first used by the German philosopher Christian von Wolff to categorise philosophical systems that endeavoured to eliminate the dichotomy between "matter" and "mind."

Under dire threat and torture Bruno refused to recant - demonstrating a courage of belief in his own principles that he was prepared to die for. The monstrous distortion of alleged adherence to divinely inspired principles, and its heinous implementation by what anyone with the merest iota of sense and heart can only perceive as satanically inspired sacerdotal zealotry, wrought its human destruction of excellence once again, as it has throughout the ages.

One more example was Hypatia of Alexandria. The most ethical, moral, and greatly enshrined Saint Cyril’s monks attacked Hypatia, daughter of the mathematician Theon of Alexandria, who with his Diophantine analysis came very close to developing the concept of integral calculus about a millennium before Leibniz and Newton took the eternal credit. Hypatia, philosopher, mathematician and astronomer, taught at the university in Alexandria. She was highly respected by, among others, the governor Orestes who consulted her on matters of civil administration, and bishop Synesius who submitted some of his work to her criticism. Many of her students came to occupy high posts in government and the church. Her activities were not regarded as “befitting a woman,” by the dog-like misogynist primitivism of predominant monkhood, and consequently the kind monks, saviours of humanity and leaders of the flock by direct divine inspiration, waylaid her on her way home, and proceeded to scrape off her skin with oystershells. Then brutally hacking her body apart, they burnt the pieces outside the city walls. Thank heaven we have Saint Cyril’s scriptures to guide us into our future. Needless to say, all Hypatia’s works are “lost.” © FV

Many cannot see simplest truth if it was hung before their eyes on a pole with flashing lights, or in encountering it can only manage the infantile idiocy and pathetic intellectual poverty to mock it, or regard it inconsequential, such as the enormously insightful one in an earlier post here.

The simple geometry of pyramids has always fascinated me. Obviously they also have a sociological analogue - the narrowly tipped capstone may represent all that is human excellence and the broad base all that regressively retards. It generates two little paradoxes: as much as the tip endeavours to enlighten the base, the base attempts to save the tip from, to it, an all too evident ignorance. More, like the actual architectural solid does, would it not be an incredible wonder to see the base actually supportive of the ascending superstructure? Yet it's never happened - all inventive progress, all seminal discovery, new process and technique, all beautiful philosophical insight, has always been ridiculed, deprecated, suppressed and quite successfully disproven. Until it became popular paradigm and created media stars - at that moment, it was they, who "always told you so" or actually even invented it before some clever marketer took over the idea and disseminated it to the masses. Then again, almost everything shows cyclicity - perhaps more social evolution will see a reversal of this trend which is so statistically conspicuous that we could almost encode it as a natural law.

FV
Good Elf
Hi Tachyon8491,

Good work... excellent and transparent may I say even brilliant. I may not believe every word but this is expressing your ideas and that is what "forums" are about. Keep it up.

QUOTE
Needless to say, all Hypatia’s works are “lost.” © FV
I would not "give up" yet. Since the discovery of the Archimedian Palimpsest "The Method" his discovery of "calculus" has rocked the world of scholarship.
Archimedes and the Palimpsest (you could not have missed this but I have included it for the sake of others).
The same techniques used there (multi-spectral cameras and GIS raster image processing) are at work on a vast body of ancient Greek, Roman and Egyptian Literature where many of the "Lost Books" are being recovered from the "Garbage Tip" of history at Oxyrhynchus. Each day many books are being "resurrected" from history.
Oxyrhynchus These amount to a resource of 1/5 of all the known Manuscripts of antiquity.
POxy: Oxyrhynchus Online Once again you are probably already aware but I would think others are not.

Cheers
Tachyon8491
Thanks Oh Good Elfian One, coming from you I do regard that as high praise. Being an incorrigible perfectionist I never really regard the sufficient as good enough but hope to progressively improve dry.gif

Yes I am aware of the new techniques of revealing hidden content of old manuscripts and Archimedes' work, but wasn't aware of the Oxyrhynchian garbage tip - that is truly exciting! Literally dozens of libraries and repositories were destroyed during the excesses and madness of the Dark Ages, both by christian and islamic contingents. If we could recover some of that priceless heritage I would feel more continuity with those brilliant minds from whom we should never have been separated.

FV
komali 2
Why do you use such big words? Little words are nice too... *pets little words* I don't mean i didn't understand you, it's just harder to get through stuff like that... for me anyway lol i guess this is a forum for the smarter half of the human race...

And... you wrote a book... about how sad it is that creationists and evolutionists can't get along...? Did i read that right? blink.gif Dude, whoa. What about other topics religious and non-religious people can't get along with eachother because of? Like what happens after death, formation of the universe, whether or not harry potter is a good book... Why not any of that?
Tachyon8491
Dear Komali,

Thank you for your interest and comment. The Nature of Being is indeed about all the subjects you mentioned and vastly more - its synopsis comprises sixteen pages and covers at least the 2871 entries listed in the index, it does not however address the merits or demerits (as according to taste) of Harry Potter media.

The English language has around a million lexemes, those words listed in a good dictionary, and then about another half a million specialised words and terms. Most English-speaking people get by with a few thousand only which suffice conversationally and are required in the language domain of their professions - most of them also do not actively work at expanding this vocabulary. Apart from the fact that there is a known window of opportunity, a phase in children during which language use must be addressed and develop, when language in its vocabulary and syntactic usage grow at a faster rate than any other time, most adults only passively acquire minimally more language power.

When you read through letters and diaries written at the turn of the last century, and see the rich power of expression as enabled by breadth of vocabulary, richness of idom, and the effective use of grammar and syntax, then apart from exceptions, the "modern" individual has, in comparison, only the very poorest language ability. No wonder, as the scholastic requirements for language excellence appear to have taken a serious dive in most English-speaking parts of the world. There are unfortunately many signs of cultural deterioration. There is no longer even a requirement for correct spelling in many schools (a rough phonetic equivalent will do), idiomatic heritage is regarded as "quaint," outmoded and elitist, and it's "hip" to talk in various analogues of "eubonics." Social priorities of demagogic programming have shifted in their accent, it is no longer an ideal to turn out literary and elocutionary (sorry about the six syllables, I hope some will cope) excellence, as much as it's far more urgent to turn those about to enter society into ideal producers, and then, consumers of what is produced. For this you only really need to know where the on-button on the TV is and the rest is simply enthusiastic absorption. I won't even begin to talk about erudition - apart from having five syllables and being indecipherable by a large percentile of society, it's an incredibly dirty word.

Much casual conversation I espy on message boards or happen to sadly overhear has the style of:

"Hey man." (With the intonation of statement, not question or enquiry, nor with the intrinsic psycho-spiritual impact of greeting)

"Hey." (This is an answer, confirmation, and indicates a mode of social reciprocity)

"Like, y'know, how's your ol' lady." (Question mark omitted as it would not suit the tonal inflection used.)

"Cool dude, cool.. made bucks, y'know what I'm sayin?" (Here we may use a question mark at last)

"Yeah man, so what's up." (no... Well, you know what's not required by now)

And so it goes on.

A lot of this is of course accompanied by interspersed grunts, expressive whistles, the strange waving of twisted fingers, bizarre orgasmic wobbling of the physiognomy (excuse please) and a degree of vituperative (sorry again) profanity guaranteed to give any reasonably healthy canine a dose of mange - fortunately most of this is in some alien code and the government has not yet printed the "cultural keys" required for the desired decodification (do forgive that sixpack.)

The expressive power of this linguistic sophistication, to me, has about the same fascination as that of an amoeba reaching out a slow pseudopod to grab a likely-looking food particle, or watching cabbage grow. Don't get me wrong here, I'm a vegetarian and love cabbage, amoebae too, (yes, it's got an "e" in the plural) but do not normally converse with these, much as I dearly, dearly would love to teach them some more language.

There is then of course that contingent of individuals who, when coming across a slightly more syllabically challenging word, look upon it as an opportunity to learn something, much as they have my sympathy in needing to cope with a little disturbance in uninterrupted reading flow. I really respect these people, and in an ambition of optimising my self-respect, claim to be one of them. Believe me, I come across new words almost every day and with some patience, look them up and learn something new too.

Words grab things - they encode concepts and percepts (and these are not dissimilar) - a word is a thing, a process, it encodes intention and meaning. No single word is meaningless, although many are far more meaningful than their simpler substitutes. Words evolve and are created - often from the general to the more specific, and therefore more focal - they focus in and magnify a specific target to be brought to conscious awareness. "Boat" is not as specific as "aircraft carrier," "car" not as meaningful in the desired context as "Sports Utility Vehicle," "drop" not as expressive as "precipice." Words are beautiful, they give you power, not just the power to listen, read and interpret with some adequacy, but far more, the power to conceive and think with concepts and depth of relation. That is a richness. And not for anything, would I sacrifice that precious gift.

FV



Jack
Tachyon,

I read your essay above and you have some wonderful and refreshing ideas. But I do have to agree with Komali about the wordiness aspect. I am probably one of the few people with an english degree that regularly visits this forum, and I agree with much of what you say in defense of your wordiness...far too much instant message/TV commercial/soundbyte grammar and vocabulary going on out there. Words are beautiful, and I believe one should always say what they mean and mean what they say. On the other hand, I also believe that language is not an absolute. The most important aspect of language is communication, and sometimes you have to break a few rules or use some colloquial wording or structure to more effectively communicate your point. Take translations of great works of fiction. If one were to just go through the French/English dictionary and tranlate Les Miserables, it would be at best a very boring read, and at worst nearly incomprehensible. What is important is the flow, the style, the color, and the flavor. Even at that, certain things are lost in translation...double meanings, hidden rhyme, etc that only a native speaker of the original language of the text would get.

Getting a little off track here, but what I am trying to say is that there is a middle ground. A fantastic idea buried in a long paragraph of "25 cent" words may go unnoticed. In language, as in mathmatics and physics, simplicity is elegance. (And please take the above as constructive criticism. Keep up the good work.)
Tachyon8491
Point well taken Jack - there is indeed a question of balance - but this is not so easy to achieve or a conundrum to solve: it depends much on an effective reference point to use as comparative standard. That reference point may be obtained by various means. Among these are perhaps firstly common sense (maybe we should rather speak of uncommon sense..) or, a measurement taken of typical public media complexity, i.e. average word count per sentence and average syllables per word, etc., or a comparison between a derived legibility index of one's work and the apparent linguistic abilities of the readership you are aiming at. To me, this has always been a very serious and conscious exercise, and I dynamically adapt my writing on a continuous basis as I work, although that may well be hard to believe for some.

You see, although it is indeed possible to express an idea in very simple language, it is not so simple to effectively communicate a complex concept in simple words unless you do this by continuous analogy - such analogising however, is an indirect treatment, it does not utilise those conceptual building bricks intrinsically and directly related to a subject. It can be attempted with such simplicity but then dilutes and can just as easily lose its intended message. If I were to present a description of stellar evolution and classification and use the sun as example, it would be very difficult to avoid conceptual terminology such as protostellar cloud, main sequence, hydrogen-helium burning, chromosphere, photosphere, relative element abundance, multiple ionisation, spectral analysis, etc. and that would be keeping it very simple. When talking about psychoneuroimmunology (PNI) we can hardly avoid the use of neuroimmunological pathways, deep cerebral nuclei, hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenocortical axis activation, integration cones, apices, phantom integration bands, and the several neurally embedded action-templates in different types of individuation.

In presenting this kind of work, such terminology needs to be either gradually introduced by building up the conceptual terminology used, and deriving it from simpler concept and terms before its more "casual" usage, or, be unambiguously interpreteable by context.

A very challenging problem is that in order to achieve a desirable, and efficient compactness of language in presenting a complex constellation of concepts, you need to use a certain level of "encoding" compactness in the language used. This allows succinct presentation - the alternative is to break up such a constellation into far more and simpler parts, which then have to be presented serially, one by one, in far more sentences. The result is a loss of relation and unitary coherence in the parts of that constellation. You see, ideally we could communicate like computers, not in serially presented written, or acoustic analogues of our thought content, but in massive parallel data paths - this we can't do (unless you're a very good telepathic transmitter.)

The compromise is one of compact complexity versus lengthily diluted simplicity. And to me, lengthily diluted simplicity in its long, broken serial presentation, loses much of the intended message by dissolving it. It is also not my natural style. I aim myself consciously at a readership which I feel has the intellectual ability and concomitant linguistic capacity to, hopefully, understand what I write and be stimulated by it. I do not regard it an oversight on my part that those not having this ability will feel themselves diverted to read something far more interesting. I truly do not wish to address them and wish them much fun elsewhere. In the known integrity of my intentions I do not regard that as chauvenistic. I know that in the major drive for a faceless egalitarianism that seems to be a symptom of a well-planned global commercialisation, we should perhaps all learn to speak, read, and understand monosyllabic code, but I'm not one to subscribe to that. Perhaps I prefer a little roguish eccentricity in this issue. Also perhaps, I'll learn to adjust - I assure you of only my very best intentions cool.gif

FV
Good Elf
Hi Tachyon8491,

I find your spelling and punctuation refreshing and easier to fully comprehend. I am of a more colloquial tilt. But we are a "broad church" here. I resent all that "dumbing down" and attempts to "prune" the language in business and government. Funny that this heady activity is only at the level of "functionaries" such as myself. At the more "elevated" levels of "Captains of Industry" and "Politicos" the bigger the word the better... the more easily to laugh down on us. Seems we have "usurped" our place in society and an attempt is being made to put us back where we belong. rolleyes.gif
QUOTE
"Who knows? Maybe my life belongs to God. Maybe it belongs to me. But I do know one thing: I'm damned if it belongs to the government." - Arthur Hoppe
<br>Cheers
Wally
Haha nice quote Elf.
Phatt138
Grammar isn't played like Scrabble - you don't get points for excessive syllable placement. It's about boiling down, not fluffing up. So say what you mean and get it over with. dry.gif
MarkG
QUOTE (Phatt138+Jun 5 2005, 07:44 AM)
It's about boiling down, not fluffing up. So say what you mean and get it over with.  dry.gif

<br>And thats exactly the point. To not have to continually reinvent the wheel. If we all know what a Jackalope (Lepus-Cervidae) is, there's no reason to define it at every mention. The audience will be able to rapidly convey and absorb ideas without the hundreds of lines of text required otherwise.
bobart
Thank you for your insights, Tachyon8491.
At what point does the divine make itself known as a creative force?
You may have answered that, but if so, it flew past me.
Tachyon8491
Devolution to Simplicity

A professor of linguistics
hid a secret in his hat
and entering upon victims
chewing gum in lecture halls
would prestidigitate with lexemes
like a conjuring with balls

Ah, he said, now listen
it's not a cat that's pissin'
it's a feline with polyuria
and crimen injuria
is not a pain in the Ukraine
or a Russian pornostar

Then, haemostatics
is what happens
in the typical student brain
when confronted with syllabics
in excess of roughly three
serially enunciated
irrespective of their clarity

And you, young man
with evident mimesis
displayed physiognomically
warranting your tractate's absence
will not, with your mindless mincing
sway my opinions condescendingly

He proffered his hat
and a samizdattian tract
lubriciously slid
down the side of his head
then sanguinely turning
to the voluminous chapter
on burning of learning and tomes:

He read out aloud
"It shall not be allowed
to disseminate dissension
regarding any mention
of the worth of intellect -
and well as any kvetching knows
it's self-entrenched elitism
insulting the semi-literate
and grossly insalubrious
to an analphabetic proletariat"

Thereupon he proceeded
to brand a "P" upon his hat
and pyrotechnically consuming
volumes of flaring Brittannica
proclaimed: This P stands for "perfection"
and devolution to simplicity..

Since then our simplified professor
is no longer a semantic aggressor
and lectures purely monosyllabically

FV
Tachyon8491
A very interesting question Bobart - I see the answer implicit in my opening article in this thread. One central idea is that the divine is inattributable, that is, any anthropocentic attribution (conceivable syntagmatically) is definitive of the divine, that is, reflecting an implicit intention to define its attributes. The converse of this is to speak about the divine in a non-definitive, non-attributional manner, such as indicated in the "un-writable" or unspeakable names used in several religio-philosophical doctrinal approaches.

Apart from what might be regarded as a simplistic arrogance, any attributional constellation, comprising (tacit, implicit) premises and stated conclusions, imposes limits in its suggested potential, and if we may assume anything with perhaps some safety, it is that a limiting definition of the divine does not indicate an openness and receptivity to unlimited divine potential, nor could it be an accurate reflection. We may ask in this context why cosmic ontology then has specific ontogenic phenomenology - there do not appear to be infinite permutations of thing and process. As any verbal statement also vectors a deterministic causal evolution, so fundamental quantisation also sets causally deterministic precedent from which to further evolve. Our science continually probes this deeper, with progressively higher energies, in order to make "nature" divulge its most fundamentally quantised phenomena. We have discovered hundreds of such fundamental particle resonances, and can from their relationships and familial categorisation and symmetries inductively infer the existence of others which we are presently searching for. We have postulated planck-length, planck-time and the bekenstein-limit as being the minimal meaningful quantisations of dimension, time and information, but I seriously doubt that they are. They reflect our present limits of resolution, applied to a meaningful ontological graininess. Our science is far from capable of searching at the higher energy levels which would allow us to investigate what I would call the ontogenic quantisation limit. (OQL) There may also well be a discontinuity in phase transitions between quantal families we presently know, and those still to be discovered. One problem certainly is, that science axiomatically assumes the universe to be exhaustively explicable - this would at some stage of future exploration then perhaps also tend to prove the existence of a true Anaxagorean, or Democritian atomos, an ultimately indivisible quantum which weaves cosmic reality on all levels of its phenomenology. Instead I postulate that the OQL is in fact only asymptotically approachable in a measure of its associated energy-magnitude and in this, verges on the infinite. A first approximation of this may be the ZPE of 10^104 J/cm^3 at planck-length. Energy-magnitude is itself only one measurand and doubtlessly insufficient to allow adequately defined conceptualisation of the perhaps infinitely fine-grained quantisation at this limit. Perhaps only pure consciousness can achieve that and in this case science with its typical orientation of consciousness being an epiphenomenon (a la Dennett) will have to evolve beyond its present perceptual and modelling domain. Let's not forget that today's cutting-edge science is as much the neolithic empiricism of a far tomorrow, as our present investigations are compared to those of Archimedes or Pythagoras, or perhaps even Neanderthals feeling the weight of stones suitable for arrowheads.

I admit being a monist, dyadicist, pluralist and crediting Spinozan mind-stuff as well - all of these - I believe however that the dyadic (FV) and plural epistemologies are due to phases of perception and indicative of phase-boundaries. Monism accentuates underlying singleness in the cosmological continuum, pluralism accentuates its diffracting view - both are marked by perceptual-conceptual impressions of dualistic paradox.

In view of the central tenet of my thesis that the entire cosmic ontology resulted from the quantisation of unitary, unquantised superconsciousness (the Jungian collective unconscious, or transpersonal consciousness,) your question answers itself - no single ontological entity is "unconscious" at all. Take into account Bohm's view of the electron's consciousness in an earlier post of mine. Each subjectifiable ontological simplex has its own unique ability to monitor environment and to react to it - in other words, an intrinsic ability for reactive self-reorganisation - it is sensitive to, and capable of interpreting specific subspectra of trans-species (FV) languages, modulating these with its own design-intentions (See Dennett - Kinds of Minds,) and re-emitting its own modulated species-language into its surroundings. In this sense there is also not anything like "dead" matter, or living and non-living, and no precipitous border dividing a spectrum of organicity that spans the present categories of organic and inorganic with a scholastic divide. There is no level of organisation that is not sensitive, sentient or intelligent. In "higher" organisations we see the development of a more focally-localised sensor complement, in contrast to distributed sensor equipment. An example of the former is eyespots in algae and mollusca (clams,) as compared to e.g. bilaterally disposed eyes in mammals. Of course a distributed sensory complement (as shortest range environmental monitor) is evolutionary ancient, such as e.g. our epidermal Merkel cells. Obviously the evolution of sensory organisations and specialisation is worthy of a major treatment in itself and I dedicate much space to this in my book.

If you grant that each ontological entity has intrinsic consciousness, then obviously we need to also quite redundantly specify that this is not some type of human consciousness, which would be a pathetic mis-conceptualisation. Let us take one example here (apart from that implied for the entire quantal family as derivable from the electronic context.) Gunter Albrecht-Buehler, professor of cell biology at Northwestern University Medical School in Chicago proved conclusively that single eukaryotic cells are capable of cell-species-discriminating, three-dimensional photonavigation - the reception and processing center for this lies in the centriole and (although I treat this in great detail in The Nature of Being I will skip its technical analysis here) operates in a sub-band of the infrared spectrum. Nanoscopic collumnar blades detect altitude and azimuth of IR-signalling cells (all do) by occlusion in two orthogonally disposed centrioles and the cellular microtubular system is implicated in their processing and motoric-reorganisational signalling. Interesting corroboration comes from the plant kingdom where plants having non-motile cells which are static in their cellular neighbourhood, develop such centrioles when the plant needs them, e.g. in motile sperm-cells.

Each ontological entity can be attributed a lower-level analogue-set of consciousness traits as constrained by the specifics of its morphology and intra-cellular processing capacities. In that sense, a eukaryotic cell is capable of cognition with a degree of logic, analogous to multi-parallel asynchronous Boolean variable processing, or perhaps somewhat like fuzzy logic. Multi-leveled distribution of such cognition analogues over the entire species-spectrum is supported by the implicate holographic nature of the cosmos. I use the word "species" in its sense of referring to the entire ontological spectrum of cosmic organicity. On that basis, it is also totally ridiculous to posit that animals don't have feeling, and forms a fundamentally supportive tenet of bioethics.

Where does emotion begin and end, at some specifically emergent level of organisation or organicity? We must never forget that the word refers to a strictly human quality and is pertinently anthropocentric. Yet, in the human palaeopallium, the limbic system of our brains which we have in common with reptiles and fish and one of our earliest evolutionary inheritances, lies sequestered the ancient ferociousness of the crocodile brain, forming one extreme pole of our flight-and-fight response spectrum. (Some of us still need to learn to control it.) At lesser organisational complexity levels we will find regressively simpler analogues of this. We need to remember that the perception of cognitive and emotive processes and their typifying definitions in themselves form a bi-unity (much like electricity and magnetism unified in Maxwellian electromagnetism) - there is no thinking without feeling and no feeling without thinking. Cognition and emotion go hand-in-hand, although we may subjectively sense either to be predominant at any time. They also do not present to the awareness simultaneously from a neurological point of view as thalamic-amygdalic processes initially shortcut thalamic-cortical interactions. This allows "instinctive" and very quick responses in emergencies, where higher cognitive realisations only arise later. Of course, the concept of consciousness has been much distorted by researchers with scientistic and neuricentric orientations, e.g., that a thermostat then must have two states of mind, namely, on and off! This would be an eminent example of misconceiving the correct level of unitary entity-consciousness re organisation - it is not the thermostat which is conscious, but there is certainly consciousness at its sub-atomic quantal and atomic levels. In the same way that a crowd of people is not a conscious entity but may well display unique crowd-behaviour, entity organisation perceived at different levels of ontological graininess is distinctly marked by systemic non-linearity. A crowd can only be metaphorically be sensed as a conscious unit. The sum is greater than its parts. In many ways, our human physiology can be regarded as a massively coherent, mutually symbiotic colony of specialised cellular entities, each of these with sub-cellular quantal consciousness and unique non-linear reorganisation potentials. Are we the aggregate sum of such sub-entity consciousnesses? I do not believe so - taking into account much evidence for morphogenetic field action in embryogenesis and the fact that chromosomal material in its nucleotide selection is known to be non-locally programmed (See Gariaev Group,) we reach a domain of paraphysics where non-organically located consciousness can exist in unitary form. In non-local programming also lies the hint that organically resonant consciousness may be entrained to higher entity organisations. But that's another story..

I hope I have given some food for thought.

FV

bobart
Thank you for your time.
That will take a while to digest. I hope I don't gradually bend and twist what you have said until I have rectified it into something more or less resembling a warm stool.
Deeply religious people usually approach science with the desparate fear of a child who may wake up to find there is no Santa. I doubt these assurances would comfort them.
Tachyon8491
Bobart, with this understanding, there is absolutely no reason not to be deeply religious, and to have a deeply personal, intimate relationship with the divine. It is however also a way to uncouple from the dogmatic impositions, biased human editing and re-editing, simplistic absolutism, literalised symbolism and serious omission intrinsic to our present liturgical heritage. Let us not forget the words of someone like Dr. W Graham Scroggie (1877 – 1958,) a man who himself was turned out of his first two churches for his opposition to modernism and worldliness, pastor of the famous Spurgeon Metropolitan Tabernacle, London, asserting: “..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men....” This is the epitome of anthropomorphic attribution. That, in itself, is no sinful epistemology, until however, you deeply study the historical development of the religion (and religions) and see the operation of selective editing, deliberate insertion of conceptual artifice, subjective theological synthesis, and the deletion of truly fundamental tenets understood and preached in the birth-phase of religion, for demagogic purposes. Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin von Tischendorf, one of the most renowned and respected theological scholars of the 19th Century, who made the spectacular discovery of the oldest biblical source manuscript known, the Codex Sinaiticus, asserted that, “(the New Testament had) in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually written,” and found it necessary to apply 12 000 corrections to the 110 000 lines of this source work. Human processing is intrinsic to all epistemology, natural, normal, and fully acceptable - however, the gross, and mutually unacceptable contrasts between institutional religionisms as based on their documentation, show disparate facetting, an incapability to truly perceive the unifying and underlying. That time has perhaps arrived, but first we need to understand beyond the inherited picture that most accept gullibly and quite transparently, a picture that I can confidently state must upon deeper study be granted to have been affected by some of the lowest human ambitions.

FV
justwonderin
QUOTE (Tachyon8491+Jun 5 2005, 06:26 PM)
Devolution to Simplicity

A professor of linguistics
hid a secret in his hat
and entering upon victims
chewing gum in lecture halls
would prestidigitate with lexemes
like a conjuring with balls

Ah, he said, now listen
it's not a cat that's pissin'
it's a feline with polyuria
and crimen injuria
is not a pain in the Ukraine
or a Russian pornostar

Then, haemostatics
is what happens
in the typical student brain
when confronted with syllabics
in excess of roughly three
serially enunciated
irrespective of their clarity

And you, young man
with evident mimesis
displayed physiognomically
warranting your tractate's absence
will not, with your mindless mincing
sway my opinions condescendingly

He proffered his hat
and a samizdattian tract
lubriciously slid
down the side of his head
then sanguinely turning
to the voluminous chapter
on burning of learning and tomes:

He read out aloud
"It shall not be allowed
to disseminate dissension
regarding any mention
of the worth of intellect -
and well as any kvetching knows
it's self-entrenched elitism
insulting the semi-literate
and grossly insalubrious
to an analphabetic proletariat"

Thereupon he proceeded
to brand a "P" upon his hat
and pyrotechnically consuming
volumes of flaring Brittannica
proclaimed: This P stands for "perfection"
and devolution to simplicity..

Since then our simplified professor
is no longer a semantic aggressor
and lectures purely monosyllabically

FV
wher'd you get that from!! laugh.gif
whatis
QUOTE (bobart+Jun 5 2005, 05:20 PM)
Thank you for your insights, Tachyon8491.
At what point does the divine make itself known as a creative force?
You may have answered that, but if so, it flew past me.
at what point!!every impulse is a point!all points are divine in origin but not necessarily divine in reception!(depends on point of reference for man)!the christ is the only divine point of reference available to man!this is a scientific description of a spiritual reality or law!like gravity is a law! wink.gif
Guest
Whatis, the better part of your argument has already been made. If you are sincere, please take time to read the full thread by Tachyon8491.
Tachyon8491
A Birth of Facets

Without redundantly restating what I think I have perhaps adequately addressed and expounded upon before, I feel it necessary to delicately remove an insiduous spanner that has been inserted into the works, albeit that this throwing was with some unjustifiably overconfident bravura. I will approach the point with some deviations and detours as it needs bootstrapping of several pertinent tenets and evolving these from one paradigm into another.

If every single subjectifiable ontological entity, at whatever scale of organisation, is the quantised individualisation of the single unquantised, cosmic, divine superconsciousness, then there is nothing, without exlusion, that is not divine. Every "point" (perhaps a misnomer as more a mathematical-geometric abstraction, but colloquially semi-acceptable) is then indeed divine in origin. To state that not every point is necessarily divine "in reception" needs some closer identification of that allegation and to dissolve its intrinsic conflations:

By reception we may understand information, perceivable data, arising either out of exteroceptively impacting signalling via the sensory complement, or alternatively, endogenously or interoceptively, via cognitive-emotive, or to place a different accent, psychospiritual processing. Here we to need consider potentially interpretable percept arising from any level of the aggregate spectrum of consciousness, ranging from focal self-aware I-ness, to deeper subconscious and unconscious levels interpenetrant with the transpersonal superconsciousness. This internal channel serves as both source of conceptually interpretable inspiration , intuitive guidance and a non-conventional path of communication with other quantised consciousness (See as before, Tiller, Houck, Russel &Targ, Puharich et al.) We need to further take into account that each species' sensor complement is uniquely selective in its sensor bandwidths and that accordingly we do not conventionally perceive the actually fully available spectrum of data-stimuli (trans-species languages) originating from the cosmic domain. Our resulting neurologically embedded reality model is therefore in the first instance derived from highly selective band-filtered signalling. This is not to speak of its cognitively processed forms and integration for which we would need to refer to the modelling suggested by psychoneuroimmunology (PNI.) Further considering the Bohmian Implicate domain and that non-local, superluminal data-percept is intimately associable with consciousness at all its manifest levels in trans-species reality, we have several distinguishable routes of "reception."

Implied in the interpretation that everything without exclusion is the explicate manifestation of divine quantisation, is a metaphorical parallel in Confucius' statement (see earlier post for ref) that "Everything has its beauty but not everyone can see it." In the same sense, everything is divine but some see the satanic. This paradoxical dichotomy is (almost automatically) the result of first-instance anthropomorphic attribution - a simplistic modelling that diffracts the holo-percept (the entire perceptually derived model of the phenomenological cosmos) into polar spectra: positive/negative, good/evil, black/white, healthy/unhealthy, godly/satanic, constructive/destructive. That such poles are not only far from absolute, also, acutely subjective and mostly memetically paradigmatic, but more, highly contextually relatable, is usually a complete non-sequitur to the religionistic stance. For example, first-instance interpretation would undoubtedly see the breaking of a limb as all of negative, unfortunate, an accident, or may even attribute it to effects originating from satanic motivations. If however the broken leg later leads to unquestionably linked causal evolution of event of immense personal value and objectively assessed precious gain, where the individual may later say that "this was the best thing that ever could have happened," then do we still regard the fracture as an unfortunate accident, or, in the temporally compressed juxtaposition of the two seminal events, see it as a boon?

Of course this is related to the psychology of "You cannot control what happens to you, but you can control how you react to it (interpret it) - you own how you respond to what happens to you. This demonstrates contextual objectivity, and invariably implies a paradigm-shift of the most difficult degree, and highest calibre, for individuals (and memetically concordant groups) habitually entrenched in first-instance polar interpretations. An example of this occurs psycho-acoustically in music: the playing of a first-instance dissonant interval such as a minor second or augmented fourth to a child, usually results in it slapping hands over its ears in distaste, yet musically mature appreciation accepts such intervals as a higher instance of consonance, less static and with more energy dynamically striving for resolution. Only the simplest melodic intervals and simplest chordal harmonies and contrapuntal progressions would be possible if we adhered to the first-instance impression of consonance. So, in a higher interpretation "first-instance good" may result in the worst subjectively perceived "first-instance evil" and, to explicitly list it, "first-instance evil" may be indismissibly catalytic in a resolving higher consonance of "first-instance good." Well-meant over-protection of a child for example, is classified by paediatric psychology as a quite disabling crime.

From my book The Nature of Being © Frank Valentyn, all rights reserved
Quote:
One eminent source of musical reference still quotes: (the augmented fourth or tritone) “...is relatively difficult to frame in singing and is in itself not a beautiful interval, and hence in early ecclesiastical music [fourth to sixth century] its melodic use was forbidden...Early musical theorists called it ‘the devil in music’ [Diabolus in musica] and its avoidance was one of the motives of Musica Ficta...”

The “difficulty”" in singing an augmented fourth derives from the fact that the voice follows natural tuning in which the upper component of the interval acting as leading note to a following resolution lies higher than in the equivalent interval on a tempered instrument such as the piano. The difficulty is overcome by practice in singing and aural training. The relative impression of “beauty” as given here is based on a phase of interpretation: what first instance consonant intervals have in their static non-resolutive lack of striving, is overcome by the dynamic resolutive striving of first instance dissonances.

There are different types of beauty and here is a clear case of a consensual stance that has not yet evolved to recognising higher instances, higher evolutions of contrasting relation, and the beautiful aspects of more intense energy and dynamism. The “difficulty in singing” is not just a vitally conspicuous psychoacoustic perception – it analogously relates to the incredible dragging effect of paradigmatic inertia – and in this “modern” age of ours, we are still dragging the psycho-taxonomic neolithics with us against their will. They, the least believers, are themselves pre-eminent exemplars of the workings of evolutionary cladogenesis – older, more statically unevolved taxons will coexist with the more modern, incapable of joining them in their ecological niche due to inflexible lack of evolutionary adaptability…
End Quote

Conciousness has what we could identify as two main streams of perceptual processing, a diffracting, decohering, de-contexualising stream which often results in first-instance polarity attribution, and a conhering, integrating, contextualising stream, which may result in objectively contextual, well-integrated perceptual modelling, which I suggest is a volitional mechanism of prime choice in the pursuit of psychospiritual evolution. It is the combined effect of these two streams modulating impacting percept that results in the derived perceptual gestalt at any moment, or phase, in an individual's life. (e.g. A-, B-, and C- conical integrations in PNI.)

First-instancers can confidently quote reams of cases of the worst evil, the satanic, and purgatorial culpability - they are also the planet's first promulgators of jihad, inquisition, religionistically motivated progrom and destruction of all that is progressive, and surely history groans in surfeit with an abundance of traumatic examples of their so well-meant excesses. As mentioned - owners of their interpretations.

In the aggregate psycho-philosophical evolution of the human species, phases of animatism, animism, deification, pantheism, lead to polytheism - the diffractive sense, yet recognising the divine in all facets of its phenomenology. In Akhnaton's daring grasp of monotheism arises the result of the cohering, re-integrating stream as precedent for all following versions of monotheism. However, in this spiralling evolution an incidental and unintended crime of the worst possible magnitude against the human spirit occurs: the creative agency is removed from the created - no longer intimately immanent and indivisibly fluxing in all existence, the "creator" (and we have to be genderistic here, a quite traceable story which we may well pertinently address more contextually elsewhere,) removed from what "was created," to the position of observer, now no longer an ongoing creatively-evolutional universe, a statically finished work, to reside in a utopian place called heaven which we no longer know. This historically quite transparent incident, religionistically first-instanced and literalised, is the single most "satanic" seed that has ever found nurture in the human psyche. It has caused more destruction, human trauma, division, regressive suppression of progress, static retardation of cultural evolution, suffering and death of genocidal propertions, than pandemic disease. Its time of dissolving in higher consonance has arrived, and I posit that nothing at all can stop this from happening.

You, I, and every wondrous consciousness in this incredible and mystical universe, are true and genetically authentic children of the divine, its source is unending within us - it is up to us to see godliness in foreign eyes instead of the entrenched satanic, to see striving to consonance at higher energies, to allow the intrinsic divine its intimately personal expression through us, channel it in integrity and accountability, birth it in all our motivations and to find a knowable heaven in that interpretation.

There is no single point that does not itself receive, interpret, re-modulate and express the divine in aspects of all its infinite potentials.

Frank Valentyn
bobart
Tachyon8491-
You were right. When I finally released myself from the need to protect my pre-existing paradygms, suddenly I began really enjoying what you were saying. This is intrigueing.
Tachyon8491
Thank you so much for the feedback Bobart, I can hardly tell you how validating that is, and what humble sense of purpose it inspires.

Peace and Joy,

FV
Clockwork
A bit humbling reading such wonderful use of language. I'm not going to attempt anything beyond the necassary at the hour this is being written...

Tachyon - I recognize that the gathering of a good vocabulary is a gradual process, so I might be revealing a bit of (classic modern) impatience by asking this, but I have to know; are you a strong advocate of flashcard use in increasing vocabulary? This might be good at providing an ability to recite a dictionary definition of the word, but makes the practice somewhat academic if you can't follow by using the word in your own writing.

I suppose whatever method best suits ones ability to absorb the information works. I started a pile of flashcards and it has increased the flow of reading I'm able to do through say, philosophical texts that require a dictionary in your free hand while reading.
Tachyon8491
Thanks for the compliment Clockwork tongue.gif It's validating that at least some appreciate language aimed at communicating effectively and in concise, compacting terminology, without diluting the message in "simplifying" vocabulary, simplistic syntax and the then required drawn out reams of simpler language.. Not everyone appreciates it though, as you will see in scanning earlier postings in this thread. ph34r.gif

No I don't use flashcards, but it's quite probably a good idea, might try that myself..

If anything, my personal library of in excess of five thousand books and a further technical library of some five hundred, are an indication of some of what I've read - I do believe that it is reading, and good listening too, that enrich your expressive capacity in communication. Then we may ask with some justification, what kind of reading matter is it that most people read these days...? Does it in fact have a capacity for enrichment?

FV
Tachyon8491
Exobiological research carried out by several methods: radioastronomically by looking for typifying radio-spectral signatures of high-weight evolved molecular species in the circumstellar envelopes of protostars, also in stellar- and UV/IR-irradiated molecular clouds in the interstellar medium (ISM,) and in ultra-high stratospheric research by ER-2 aircraft, have severally proven an exobiological origin of advanced molecular species. Note, "...More than 5% of the carbon in the diffuse ISM resides in grains rich in aliphatic organics." (Scott Sandford; NASA-Ames Research Center.) Sandford goes on to say, "The presence of this molecular complexity may have played a significant role in terms of the seeding and maintenance of early life on the Earth."


David Deamer, Jason P. Dworkin, Scott A. Sandford, Max P. Benrstein, and Louis J. Allamandola in ASTROBIOLOGY, Volume 2, Number 4, 2002, 371-381, state:

"Organic compounds are synthesized in the interstellar medium and can be delivered to planetary surfaces such as the early Earth, where they mix with endogenous species. Some of these compounds are amphiphilic, having polar and nonpolar groups on the same molecule. Amphiphilic compounds spontaneously self-assemble into more complex structures such as bi-molecular layers, which in turn form closed membranous vesicles. The first forms of cellular life required self-assembled membranes that were likely to have been produced from amphiphilic
compounds on the prebiotic Earth. Laboratory simulations show that such vesicles
readily encapsulate functional macromolecules, including nucleic acids and polymerases."

They go on to say:

"Recent evidence suggests that membranes can self-assemble from organic mixtures available on any planet having liquid water and a source of organics. (Dworkin et al., 2001). It now appears likely that extraterrestrial material falling on the primordial Earth was a source not only of the elements from which prebiotic molecules were formed, but also of specific organic compounds that harbored the first cellular forms of life." "...exogenous delivery and endogenous synthesis are potentially important sources of prebiotic and biogenic molecules on the early Earth. Both processes can provide amphiphilic molecules capable of self-assembly into membrane structures. Under conditions prevalent on the early Earth, assembly of membranous vesicles, followed by incorporation and development of increasingly complex polymeric systems, would enable the emergence of a membrane-bounded self-reproducing molecular system."

In a different paper, Louis J. Allamandola and Douglas M. Hudgins of the Astrochemistry Laboratory, NASA Ames Research Center, state:-

"Twenty years ago the composition of interstellar dust was largely guessed at, the concept of ices in dense molecular clouds ignored, and the notion of large, abundant, gas phase, carbon rich molecules widespread throughout the interstellar medium (ISM) considered impossible. Today the composition of dust in the diffuse ISM is reasonably well constrained to micron-sized cold refractory materials comprised of amorphous and crystalline silicates mixed with an amorphous carbonaceous material containing aromatic structural units and short, branched aliphatic chains. In dense molecular clouds, the birthplace of stars and planets, these cold dust particles are coated with mixed molecular ices whose major components are is very well constrained. Lastly, the signature of carbon-rich polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), shockingly large molecules by earlier interstellar chemistry standards, is widespread throughout the Universe." Further: "...the emission features are observed even from extremely harsh environments, indicating that the gaseous, carbon-rich molecules are exceptionally stable."

Far more evidence of evolved proto-life exists in type-II carbonaceous chondrites and in terrestrial contamination-free meteoritic samples - apart from the ISM- and protostellar sources, this is treated in detail in my book The Nature of Being (530 pages, 176 illustrations, 2871 index entries, 45 pages of endnotes. © FV)

What is clear is that life, far from having been solely "created" on a tiny mote of interstellar dust called planet Earth, is universally ubiquitous in its origins. In its quite obvious hierarchical organisation of complexity, this vitally supports my central thesis that cosmic organic ontogeny is specifically the result of a morphogenetically vectored, condensative energy--> matter organisation with a vital prior stage of quantisation. This quantisation could potentially be scientifically monitored as I firmly believe it to consistently occur on an unceasing basis, but is at present certainly far beyond the energies required to probe the quantal domain for that evidentiary assessment - further, it may well remain outside the magnitudes required.

The taxonomy of the earliest lifeforms on Earth divided these into two main branches, prokaryotes and eukaryotes, with much evidence pointing to a process of phagocytotic or colonialising endosymbiosis in the clearly inherited nuclear genomic material present in eukaryotic protozoa, and even in mammalian cellular organelles such as mitochondria. This picture became more complicated with evidence pointing to the existence of a more evolutionary primary group, the archaea, from which eukaria (Woese's term; Carl Woese and George Fox, 1977,) descended. A phylogenetic tree based on rRNA evidence now more commonly divides these primary forerunners into the two branches of bacteria and archaea, with the eukaria as a sub-branch of the latter. At this point of recapitulative phylogeny, a bridge between exobiological organicity and terrestrial organic organisation still needs substantiation, although, among other, evidence from type II carbonaceous chondrites seems to strongly point the way.

The following points are made by W. Ford Doolittle (Scientific American February 2000):

1) In the mid-1960s, Zuckerkandl and Pauling proposed a revolutionary strategy that might supply the missing information concerning evolutionary branching. The essential idea was that instead of investigating anatomy and physiology, family trees of living organisms should be based on differences in the monomer sequences in selected genes or proteins. This approach became known as "molecular phylogeny", and its essential basis was that as a result of changes in genes caused by mutations, as two species diverge from an ancestor, the gene sequences they share will also diverge, and as time passes, the genetic divergence will increase. Researchers could thus reconstruct the evolutionary past of living species by assessing the apparent history of divergence of genes or proteins isolated from those species. Protein studies completed in the 1960s and 1970s demonstrated the general utility of molecular phylogeny by confirming and then extending the already established family trees of well-studied groups such as the vertebrates.

2) A new research development occurred in the late 1970s, when Carl Woese proposed that the two-domain view of life that divided living organisms into a] bacteria and b] cells with internal membrane-bound organelles (eukaryotes) was no longer tenable on the basis of molecular analysis. Woese suggested that certain so-called "bacteria" formed a distinct third primary group -- the archaea -- and that members of this group were as different from other bacteria as bacteria were different from eukaryotes. Woese suggested that although certain cells without internal membrane-bound organelles (prokaryotes) classified as bacteria might look like bacteria, they were genetically much different, and their *ribosomal RNA (rRNA) supported an early evolutionary divergence.

3) Once the idea of three rather than two primeval domains was accepted by researchers, an important question was which of the two structurally primitive groups -- bacteria or archaea --gave rise to the first eukaryotes? Because of evidence indicating an apparent kinship between the gene expression/protein synthesis machinery of archaea and eukaryotes, the consensus was that eukaryotes diverged from the archaea.

4) One important result of research in molecular phylogeny during the past 15 years has been the production of strong evidence supporting the "endosymbiont hypothesis". In biology, the term "symbiosis" refers in general to an intimate and protracted association of individuals of different species, and "endosymbiosis" refers to a symbiotic association between cells of two or more different species in which a smaller cell inhabits a larger host cell. The endosymbiont hypothesis in evolutionary biology, now a consensus view, proposes that the mitochondria components of eukaryotes, so essential for eukaryote metabolism, formed when an early eukaryote engulfed and then retained one or more primitive bacteria of a certain type (alpha-proteobacteria). Eventually, these bacteria relinquished their ability to live on their own and transferred some of their genes to the nucleus of the host cell, and these bacteria then evolved into the extant mitochondria. In addition, and similarly, the hypothesis proposes that some mitochondria-bearing eukaryotes ingested bacteria capable of producing oxygen during photosynthesis (cyanobacteria), and these resident symbiotic bacteria subsequently evolved into the chloroplasts, the present internal structures that drive photosynthesis in certain eukaryotes (e.g., in plant cells).

5) Until very recently, therefore, the consensus view in biology could be summarized as follows: The early descendants of the last universal common ancestor -- a small prokaryote cell --divided into two prokaryotic groups: the bacteria and the archaea. Later, the archaea gave rise to the eukaryotes. Subsequently, the eukaryotes gained valuable energy-generating organelles --mitochondria and (in the case of plants, for example) chloroplasts -- by taking up and retaining certain symbiotic bacteria.

6) Several years ago, however, the consensus view stated above became complicated by a large amount of evidence concerning the phenomenon of "lateral gene transfer" (horizontal gene transfer). Biologists recognize two types of gene transfer from one organism to another: vertical and horizontal. Vertical gene transfer occurs between parents and offspring, and horizontal gene transfer is the transfer that may occur between organisms otherwise. It is in bacteria that horizontal gene transfer has been studied most extensively, particularly in the last decade. Three types of horizontal gene transfer are known: conjugation, transduction, and transformation. Conjugation is a type of sexual reproduction exhibited by some bacteria, the process involving the exchange of genetic material by means of a tube or bridge, the transfer of DNA occurring either in one direction or in both directions.

7) Transduction involves the transfer of genetic material from one bacterium to another with the intermediation of a virus. Essentially, when the virus infects one bacterium, it often carries away pieces of that bacterium's genome, and those pieces, upon the infection of a new bacterium, become incorporated into the second bacterial genome. Finally, transformation is the process involving the uptake or incorporation of DNA fragments (plasmids) by a bacterium, first observed in 1944 by Oswald Avery. In this context, the important aspect of horizontal gene transfer is that in primitive cells such as prokaryotes it is now apparent that horizontal gene transfer readily occurs across species. As a consequence of the new evidence, the consensus view of the interrelations between the primeval three kingdoms has now been seriously destabilized.

8) In general, the current situation concerning the evolutionary "tree of life" is as follows: The conceptual tree-like structure with discrete branches is retained at the top of the eukaryote domain, and also retained is the idea that eukaryotes obtained mitochondria and chloroplasts from bacteria. But the lower parts of the tree are now seen to involve an extensive anastomosis of branches -- branches joining other branches in a complex network of intersecting links -- resulting from extensive horizontal gene transfer of single or multiple genes, the horizontal gene transfer known to be common in unicellular organisms. Thus, the author (Doolittle) suggests that the "tree of life" lacks a single organism at its base, and that "the three major domains of life probably arose from a population of primitive cells that differed in their genes."

Clear from all this evidence is that horizontal and vertical gene transfer are statistically far more probable in early evolutionary organic complexes than at later evolutionary phases, pertinently due to their sharing of minimally differentiated structure. Even here, at far more developed levels, transposon and "jumping gene" activity can cause advantageous evolutionary mediation. Even more obvious must be that proto-life, "purely" molecular organicity, must have an analogous pluridirectional sharing of evolutionary advantages between different organic pathways of development when these physically converge in the same proto-ecology.

Far from being "just" or "purely" a scientific approach and path of investigation, that interpretation is only a selectively focal attention - it is not "mere matter" that we are concerned with here, but the very essence of the cosmic divine, expressing itself in continually more developed purpose. It is in creative evolution, and evolutionary creation, that continually progressive awareness of a true cosmic purpose of being develops.

Unlike William Jennings Bryan who led a fundamentalist crusade to ban the teaching of evolution in American classrooms in the 1925 "monkey trial" of the biology teacher John Scopes, and who mockingly complained about the zoologist Dr. Maynard Metcalf's exposition of evolutionary mechanisms, that evolutionists had man descending, "...not even from American monkeys, but Old World monkeys," there is no shame whatsoever in having creatively evolved from stuff of the stars themselves. On the contrary, there is a properness and mystical wonder in it, and in looking at the endless stellar stretches in a summer's night-sky, there needs to be no feeling of alien separateness. Instead a justified relaxation and a comforting security, in the deep realisation that we are looking at the realm of our true origins, as also doubtlessly, our destiny as a unified Family of Humans who will one day venture beyond our cradle and colonise the outer reaches.

Frank Valentyn
Tachyon8491
Micro- and Macro, an introduction

Macroevolution, mediated by rapid evolutionary adaptation of a species to different ecological pressures, e.g. by a change of habitat, has been conspicuously obvious in the case of the lizard Anolis Sagrei which is scattered throughout the West Indies. The experiment in which Anolis was deliberately transplanted from its home econiche by a research team consisting of biologists from Washington University in Seattle, the University of California at Davis, and the Department of Fish and Wildlife in Olympia, to a different environment with its own ecological challenges, was reported in the May, 1997 issue of Nature. No doubt many with a by now well-worn creationist axe to grind will dispute the very possibility of macroevolution, and insist that the outcome of this experiment only suggested microevolution, but this is much due to deliberate distortion and conflation, misconfraction of both observational evidence and the tenets of evolutionary theory on their part.

Before we look at the specifics, it is important to note conventionally accepted definitive differences between the terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution." To do true justice to the topic in its many attributional interrelations would probably take at least the typical 679 pages of "Evolution" by Mark Ridley, published by Blackwell Science, ISBN 0-86542-226-5, but we will have to remain as concise as possible here. Microevolution is commonly defined as gradual change in allelic and gene frequencies at the sub-speciation level - in other words, notable change in morphology within a single identifiable species; in contrast, macroevolution posits greater, stepwise traceability in the generation of entirely new morphological attributes, e.g. new organs or conspicuous transformations of these in an evolutionary "jump" causing sufficient difference to claim that speciation has occurred.

A first fact to realise is that microevolution and macroevolution lie within a single continuum of morphological change, not two continua, and that the definitive border between the distinctions is not so much the mechanisms involved as but two salient attributes: the perceived rate of change per traceable timespan within one taxon, and separately, the assessed period between two stable phases identified on either temporal side of, minimally, one speciation.

Correlating the original Darwinian idea of traceable morphological change through different phases of speciation with the actual biostratigraphic fossil column presented Darwin with some challenges: although evolutionary morphological sequences were traceable, connecting phases of a species' development in these deposits, these changes were not represented in sequences of smooth, gradual change, but with conspicuous gaps in it. This is what some pro-creationist researchers such as Young, (Patrick. H.) are claiming as definitive evidence that either macroevolution is "impossible" and does not occur, or that speciation in its alleged occurrence by evolutionists, certainly does not occur by some mode of macroevolution:

"If macroevolution occurs through the successive accumulation of numerous microevolutionary events then there should be clear evidence of transitional sequences in the fossil record and very long time spans between the appearance of new phyla. There is no evidence of this type of observation as part of any discovery in the fossil record all the way down to and including the pre-Cambrian layers."

This type of claim is, to say the least, the very definition of the ostrich syndrome. Young for example, contemptuously dismisses the glaring existence of homologous organs in different species as being an indicator of a precursive ancestral relatedness. The presence of complete pentadactyl vestigial limbs in the whale, the human vermiform appendix which strongly alludes back to an earlier herbivorous precursor's digestive system in which it was fully functional, and the human recurrent laryngeal nerve (RLN) which evolved from the vagus nerve in a piscine progenitor where it sent direct branches to each of the gill-arch ducts, but where in humans the modern RLN descendent of the fish's fourth vagus now passes (very recapitulatively) down from the brain, down to the heart in the thorax and back up again to the larynx in a completely unnecessary detour, and literally hundreds of other convincing examples, are then just "non-related coincidence." Young claims with some victorious bravado: "...the fact remains that there are tremendous morphological similarities in numerous species (for example, several marsupials and placentals) possessing no kinship whatsoever. If common ancestry is inept at explaining this, then the observations must point toward some as yet unknown process. Since the process is unknown, teaching it as fact is nothing more than pseudoscience."

That these "morphological similarities" have been exceedingly well explained as a function of evolutionary convergence, the developmental solving in similar solutions of similar environmental challenges, such as the human eye and the at least as sophisticated eye of the squid, as hundreds of other examples more, is then confidently swept under the creationist carpet with whole teams of creationists sitting on it in desperation to keep the conspicuously moving shapes underneath it as well camouflaged as possible.

Homology and evolutionary convergence, especially in light of logical descent from a minimally diverged taxonomic lineage of ancestral precursors, perfectly explains morphological similarity - in light of this, a sense of irresolvable ambiguity in where, for example, the human gut originated, derived from the roof of the embryonic gut-cavity of the shark, or both the roof and floor of the gut-cavity in frogs, is a quite deliberate obfuscation of traceability in other definitely salient ancestral attributes which can be well traced in clear evolutionary phases in the biostratigraphic record.

Gould and Eldridge state, quoting Ridley, "...it is a common pattern for a species to appear suddenly, to persist for a period, and then to become extinct. A related species may then arise, but with little sign of any transitional forms between the putative ancestor and descendant. Darwin explained this pattern by incompleteness of the fossil record."

If evolution was actually quite gradual without sudden change or transformation, then if much of the fossil record was lost due to geological action, and failure to preserve it, the resulting biostratigraphy would be exactly what we see now. The preservation of a fossil in any state of completeness in itself, let alone the preservation of an entire phylogenetic sequence, is somewhat of a geological miracle and takes very special circumstances including phases such as sedimentary encryption and percolative mineralisation.

Gould and Eldredge in interpreting the existing evidence from biostratigraphy, postulated that phyletic speciation, that is, infinitely smooth gradual transformation, which classical researchers were focussing on in their investigations, led these to miss more rapid splitting of a lineage, then interpreting such deviations as gaps in the fossil record. Very pertinent here is also that, apart from a potential lack of preservation, if a new species arises allopatrically (separate and not interbreeding) and in small isolated population, then the fossil record may not display the speciation event at any one site. If a site does preserve a biostratigraphic record of the ancestral species, the descendent species will be evolving elsewhere. Fossils of the precursor and descendent will not occur in the same biostratigraphic column. The small size of an intermediate and transitional population also statistically makes it less conducive to fossil preservation. In contrast to phyletic gradualism, an alternative of punctuated equilibrium - long stable phases of minimal evolutionary change punctuated by short periods of rapid speciation, is an attractive alternative for which there is much incidental evidence. The Plio-Pleistocene snail sequences of Lake Turkana in Kenya unmistakeably show punctuated equilibrium occurring, in abrupt changes concentrated in intervals of around 5 000 to 50 000 years - such periods vastly shorter than the long stable periods of constancy spanning a total of some 4,5 million years. (Williamson, P.G.)

Anagenesis, slow transformative speciation, alternated with cladogenesis, rapid speciative splitting, shows both temporal-range extremes representative of micro- and macroevolution. Ridley states: "...gradualism...does not deny the existence of splitting: it would be absurd to do so, because there are over a million species now, descended from a unique origin of life. However, it differs from punctuated equilibrium in that it predicts evolutionary change between, as well as during, speciation events." (Evolution, p 512-13) This salient point is often made transparent in attacks on evolutionary theory and suppressed in hopeful non-mention. The fact that far over a million species originated from a concentrated focal origin of a few minimally diverged ancestral lineages, or a single lineage, shows unmistakable species convergence when temporally tracked to their common ancestral pool, and evolutionary divergence forward in time from that origin. The fact that there is a gapped and incomplete biostratigraphic record is far, very far, from some quite wistful ultimate proof that "therefore" macroevolution "does not occur."

It has also been claimed that microevolution cannot be construed as a proven channel to macroevolution - this claim suffers from a syllogistic incompleteness of declared premises and a therefore false conclusion: macroevolution assumes anagenetic phases of phyletic gradualism (adequately identifiable in microevolution) as well as non-microevolutive events and phases such as mutational effects and rapid cladogenetic speciation. Microevolution is therefore certainly an acceptable contributory evolutionary pathway towards macroevolution, but indeed not the only path, showing the falseness of the claim in its omissions. Additionally, macroevolutive phases may be elicited by coevolution - the mutually competitive pressure applied by species to each other when sharing a common, or overlapping econiche. Coevolutive pressure may manifest inter- or intra-specifically, or in a threat of differential extinction or predation, in which adaptive and selective pressures are maximised. Yet a further evolutive mode is co-adaptation, where e.g. ants such as Formica fusca feed on the caterpillar of the lycaenid butterfly Glaucopsyche lygdamus, not consuming it, but drinking from a special organ which appears to have no other purpose than to feed ants (Newcomer's organ.) A 1981 experiment by Pierce and Mead suggests that the caterpillars (and the resulting butterflies) gain by being protected against predation from parasites such as brachonid wasps and tachonid flies. Such mutualism shows that the ants and caterpillars are closely, or co-adapted: ants gain food and caterpillars gain protection in interspecific coadaptation.

In conclusion here we may quote Ridley, "It is...not revealing to try and test 'between' gradual and punctuated evolution (read: micro- and macroevolution; FV,) it is more appropriate to find out what the frequency of the different patterns is." (Evolution, p 514) As we may therefore from all the foregoing legitimately claim microevolution as an essential contributory mode to macroevolution, we may see one modality of macroevolution operational in short-term adaptive morphological change occasioned by new ecological pressures.

As an example of the value of biostratigraphy it is useful to examine a passage from Donald Johanson and Maitland Edey's book “Lucy” - the discovery of Australopithecus Afarensis, a six-million year old hominid precursor on the vague horizon of human origin. From my book, The Nature of Being, © Frank Valentyn, Part One, Chapter Six, Origins, p 138:

“For dating, there had never been anything like Omo in the entire history of palaeoanthropology. With a scale of that precision, it was possible to organise the multitude of mammal fossils that littered the Omo landscape… In the eight years that the Omo expedition operated, it collected close to fifty thousand specimens, representing more than 140 species of mammals. Some of the little ones - rats, mice and shrews - were valuable because such small animals do not move about much and are extremely sensitive to environmental change. Thus the presence…in a particular sediment says something precise about what the local climate was like when that sediment was laid down. -- Equally important, Clark's practice of carefully mapping each fossil made it possible to follow the evolutionary development of various types throughout time. Beautiful sequences of antelopes, giraffes and elephants were obtained; new species evolving out of old ones and appearing in younger strata, then dying out as they were replaced by still others in still younger strata. Evolution, in short, was taking place before the eyes of the Omo surveyors, and they could time it.”



Anolis Emigrates

Specimens of Anolis lizard were taken from their Bahamian home island of Staniel Cay to fourteen other islands, eleven small islands in 1977 and another three in 1981. These specific target islands were all previously devoid of lizards and had notable differences in vegetation compared to Staniel Cay in that this was characterised by coppice, i.e. thick stands of small trees, whereas the target islands had lower vegetation with thinner stems and far fewer trees.

In the incredibly short period of only fourteen years duration of the experiment, it was found that the lizards' anatomical attributes had adapted spectacularly in a differential manner to their new ecological survival challenges: the greater the difference between some specific characteristic of their home environment and the new one, the greater and more noticeable was the evolutionary adaptation in a specific aspect of their morphology to allow them to cope better with that change. Relative to their body size, Anolis lizards had evolved limbs which were shorter, as predicted by the researchers - in fact, the smaller the average branch diameter was on a particular target island, the shorter was Anolis' relative limb length. Additionally, the lizards' toe pads had evolved to a greater size and a relative greater width to allow better grasping. On large tree trunks the benefit of speed provided by relative longer limb-length is offset by the agility advantage of shorter legs with better grasping power on plants with smaller stems and branches.

There is not much doubt that consistently maintained ecological pressures on the lizards in their new environment would select for the genetic perpetuation of their newly evolved morphological adaptations by differential survival advantage and make these inheritable traits. That such consistently maintained ecological pressures elicit macroevolution in the sense of rapidly specific adaptation has been proven.

The biostratigraphic record provides more adequate proof of macroevolutionary morphological divergence and speciation in the Cambrian "explosion" at the beginning of the Palaeozoic Era which established virtually all the major body-plans seen in present-day oceans. More biostratigraphic proof comes from well-observable taxonomic and morphological divergences in bursts of secondary evolutionary development in the wake of known mass extinctions - the sense in this lies in the new availability of econiches freed up by the differential extinction of a previously wide-spread niche-occupier. In this way too, it was the relatively quick extinction phase of the Saurians that made way for mammalian species.


Frank Valentyn
puzzled
Could you please explain why you care so much. From a evolutionary point of view it really doesn't matter if people believe in evoution or not. It doesn't matter if the human race survives either. So why do you care? Are you trying to convince yourself? dry.gif
Elektra51
Wonder why YOU care so much about tachyon caring so much, puzzled? "Evolution doesn't care" is just plain silly, its a process and not an entity. Even tho you say that it doesn't matter if the human race survives or not, maybe he doesn't share your pessimism. Instead of inane and useless remarks why don't you rather try make a useful contribution, not evolved enough for that yourself maybe?
bobart
I can't speak for Tachyon, but there are many who truly want to know something about life and our place in it. For those with this passion, creation stories were not enough. It isn't as easy to find personal meaning in evolution because it isn't readily supplied by priests. This sounds like a puzzle, but in a very real sense I am millions of years old, not just forty something, and my young son is even a little older than I am. That isn't a sad or pessimistic thought.
Gatekeeper235
I think what "Puzzled" was getting at is that this thread goes beyond revealing one's personel belief system and ventures into conversion business - but why? "Puzzled" then ventures the hippopotamus that the creator may be insecure.
Ignorance(Isn't)Bliss
I personally think that the universe was hatched from a GIAGANTIC Cadberry Egg, and the Cadberry bunny is the all knowing and all powerful... the Alpha & Omega. Everyone KNOWS the easterbunny exists... just take it one step further...
wink.gif


P.S- I hope my personal believe stated above doesnt detract from the credibility of my other posts.. k thx laugh.gif
Dr Freud
Yes, I believe that the creator has a God complex. Hates yellow flowers and is sexually attracted to fingernail clippings. His source of frustration stems from his inverted need to be loved by himself. This unrequited love triangle is unusual in that the 3rd party is in this case is his computer. While the usual penis envy sub-narrative is now manifested as only small whimpering sounds at meal times there are overtly aggressive dark tones to his relationships with the other two parties. Having been abandoned as a child in a cinema and forced to watch “I, myself and Irene” non-stop for 4 days (until rescued by a passerby) the subject knows no other reality and projects a false libido as though he were on stage. Having made "evolution" his mission in life the subject see himself as the destroying angel of the oncongene mutations which he has mistakenly identified as belief in any God other than Himself.
Elektra51
Oh, tsk, tsk Dr Freud, how howwible that it was by passers-by you had to be rescued, and that as creator you could not evoke a scenario of reality virtual enough to save yourself! Of course if your attraction to sexy nail-clippings keeps you busy most of your valuable time, you couldn't be expected to redirect some Freudian analysis to your own holy self to enquire into your deeper motives... is your acerbic wit a symptom of frustration that even at your age the testicles have not yet properly descended? Perhaps you could re-create that bit of evolution and ensure the present trickle of testosterone is translated into a general ambition to uplift, instead of activating oncogenes in others? But then some of us can't really help the way we evolved, uhm... were created. Now if I had to choose between being a Marburg virus or a T-cell I know I'd rather immunize, but you've obviously made the choice already.. cool.gif
Tachyon8491
Dear Friends,

Many posts in this thread pose the question why it is that I am 1) So interested in evolution, 2) Want to dissolve a quite evident antagonistic polarisation that exists between the two camps of evolutionism and creationism.

I intend to explain this motivation at some adequate length in this post.

I assumed that my motivations would be transparently clear from the contexts of all the articles treating the subject of evolutionism and creationism which I have posted in this thread – it appears that for several reasons, this motivation has not become as evident as I would wish it to be. Note that I formulated this as evolutionism and creationism and not evolutionism versus creationism. That simple difference sums up a major aspect of my perspective and also my motivations.

Let me start by stating that what is involved here is a paradigm shift – this automatically means “great intellectual-emotional-psychospiritual challenge” – there is no quicker, easier way to spell it out than that. Another word that arises is “difficult.” No doubt those who have actually experienced what they unmistakably will have identified as a paradigm shift in their own understanding at some point in their lives, know exactly what I am talking about here. In a deeper analysis which would ideally be accompanied with diagrammatic illustration for clarity (such as I have done in my book The Nature of Being © Frank Valentyn; 530 pages, 176 illustrations, 30 tables, 2871 index entries, 45 endnote pages,) we can make elements of this challenge more objective to obtain greater insight into what these challenges amount to. It is therefore worth a quick review to see what is essentially involved, and needs to be faced by those with sufficiently open receptivity to dare meeting the challenges implied in paradigm shift.

A paradigm consists of an intellectual-emotional-constellation (IEC- FV) consisting of a closed domain of mutually referent and mutually supportive percepts, tenets and precepts, bounded by a semi-permeable perceptual boundary.

Taking this some steps further, we need to see that the mutually referent and supportive percept domain implies mutual proof. In other words, if any of the domain-intrinsic percepts gets questioned, automatic proof almost immediately arises from one, some, or many, other percepts within the closed domain boundary. It also means that when a percept which is not domain-intrinsic get questioned, the question will be seen as all of (or either) inapplicable, distorted in its formulation, synthetic, nonsensical, irrelevant, facetious, “incorrect,” “the wrong question,” manipulative or entrapping.

Such an IEC domain-extrinsic question may be considered completely legitimate and marked by total integrity outside the domain, but from inside it, the very salient fact is that it is simply not perceived in the way it was intended. Undoubtedly, from each side of the domain-boundary, the question is thought to be understood in the way it was intentioned. This misperception does not only apply to the perceived inter-personal intention of the question (am I being attacked, manipulated, ridiculed?) but to the percept-content and conceptual formulation of its tenets. This conflated, or misconfractive understanding arises because the question’s internal percepts have no true correlation with a reference frame that exists outside the paradigm. The reference matrix against which domain-extrinsic questions get tested and measured, does not allow a true one-to-one conceptual identification between extrinsic and intrinsic percepts. There is no true conceptual congruency even if this is perceived by each party across the paradigmatic divide. There arises a question of paradox here, and paradox is essentially and indismissibly involved in the comparison and mutual challenge between paradigms and paradigmatic stances. Namely: considered against the conceptual filtering action of the intrinsic reference frame, the intended conceptual format of extrinsic questions becomes altered – the incoming percept becomes modified in the act of perception itself, in the automatic matching against the internal reference frame’s fundamental tenets.

To illustrate that a little, let’s imagine, via an advanced hyper-processing autotranslator, a debate between an earthling (E) and an alien (A) about their fundamental beliefs and see a typical progression of dialogue.

E: “Surely there were intermediate lifeforms between Objiwarunga and your present anatomy and morphology?”
A: “It says clearly in the sacred crystal lattice that Warungas were created after Objiwarunga’s fifth moult, and that she shed five of her tentacles in great sacrifice during the exceedingly unselfish process, leaving the present seven. This happened two-point-seven tera-rotations ago.”
E: “What about the silica exoskeletons we found at b37 which have nine tentacles?”
A: “The sacred SCL states unmistakably in stanzas 433 522 to 433 527 that Warunga are direct meegwa of Objiwarunga, therefore what you have found cannot be “intermediated forms” as you so impertinently allege.”
E: “What are “meegwa?”
A: “This is not easy to understand unless you have been extensively schooled in warung-go-wumffla. I suppose the nearest equivalent would be ‘tentacular transformations?’”
E: “How do you know this happened two-point-seven tera-rotations ago?”
A: “It says so in..”
E: “Ah, yes of course. Hmm…, is there any evidence towards that, remains, fossil record, artefact, etc?”
A: “Dr. Peejum Druk has extensively chronicled our protohistory after the great mass-gassification, which is noted in several of our planetary mythologies and is the basis of record in Book One of the SCL. Each of the Five Tribes knows about the Great Gassing, although the Weqq disagree with the SCL’s historical explanation – they are however not tenticable and in cultured conversation are regarded as unmentionable. I would therefore kindly ask you not to refer to them when you are in contact with any other civilised Warunga?”
E: “What exactly, if I may ask, do the Weqq disagree with in the SCL?”
A: (A slight swelling of the peripheral tentacular vascular system is noticed) “They maintain that the SCL is almost entirely myth, not to be interpreted literally, and that specifically… (hesitates lengthily) well, it is to be noted that because of their disbelief they are automatically doomed to the Depthless Marsh after their last moult. They will not share in the everlasting bliss.”
E: “Where exactly is the Depthless Marsh?”
A: “Of course, it is not on Warunga-Jeen, it is not physical, nor can it be tenticulated with ordinary “senses” as you would call them.”
E: “Then how do you know it’s real?”
A: “Because it says so in…”
E Interrupts somewhat impatiently, and asks, “Do the Weqq have anything to say about the nine-tentacled fossil remains which are spread so widely throughout the B37 layer?”
A: “Well, yes, they insist that these are, uhn… as you would call them, “intermediated forms.”
E: “Intermediate forms?”
A: “That is what I signalled.”
E: “Is there not a subtle semantic difference between “Intermediate forms” and “Intermediated forms”?”
A: “Perhaps, it is a fine point. To use the term “intermediate” would appear to give some signalled credence to this utterly synthetic idea, it is therefore a matter of liturgical correctness to not refer to them so and as consequence to appear to lend the term any reality of reference to an actual phenomenon.”
E: “Is it possible to meet some representative academic Weqq and to further discuss their insights with them?”
A: “You must understand that Weqq are normally de-tentacled by sacred order of the Wumffla Tribune whenever they are found to express their anathema and attempt to infect others with it.”
E: “But,” (Remembering back some six millennia to the “Gross Vinquisitions” reputed to have taken place on Earth,) “Are they denied the right to express these in confidence, in private meetings, so to speak?”
“You must understand further perhaps, that the quintuple Warungian cognitive processors are located in the tentacular tips, and that de-tentacling therefore renders the subject incapable of any further cognitive processing. In caring for their.., what do you call those? Souls? We must do our utmost to save them. Weqq-dum find very satisfactory life purpose after de-tentacling in the somatic rest which is bequeathed them, glory be to Objiwarunga’s Great Moult, and usually serve blissfully as transducers in our heating ducts.”
E: “What is that large, squat, squarish building with the great chimney, uh, just behind the Warung-Wafful place of sacred worship?”
A: “It is, was, that is, a repository of intermediated forms, the great chimney is a recent architectural addition.”
E: “Could we have a look at its collections?”
A: “Of course, although the nature of the collections has changed dramatically since the Fifth Council.”
E: “Yes?”
A: “Oh yes, since the divine incineration we now keep select historical editions of the SCL on display there, it is now a sacred place.”

Etc. etc.

Paradigms exist in their group-adherence, resonant clustering, their “culture” and the memetic propagation of their foundational tenets which are programmatically enforced by processes of prescription, proscription, and education which are often not passive in their promulgation, but proselytic in a sense of calling to convert disbelievers to believers. Of course, this can be said equally of both parties across a paradigmatic divide, which does not reflect whatsoever on the veracity, integrity or verifiable phenomenology supporting either paradigm.

Paradigms evolve by import of percepts and tenets across their semi-permeable boundaries, or alternatively by the endogenous generation of intrinsic percept which may, or may not, show correlation with an existing extrinsic perceptual domain. Such is the case with the IEC-domain of “intelligent design.” This, under no-longer dismissible pressure of evidence from evolutionary insights came into being by previously intransigent paradigm bending partially towards the recognition of epochally stretched interrelationships between taxons, morphologies, and accomplishes a great step upwards from an originally common idea that an undeniable fossil record was temporally compressed to around 4004 B.P., and a previous insistence that the various isotope dating methods were not just highly inaccurate, but totally inapplicable.

Why are paradigm boundaries semi-permeable? In reality, the semi-permeable nature of cognitive domain boundaries is often an optimistic case, often they are effectively impermeable and act like one-way mirrors looking from the inside outwards – extrinsic percept is made invisible and non-existent through paradigmatic opacity. This is an extreme case, and the excessively defensive protection which marks it obviously revolves around a seriously perceived threat to psychospiritual comfort. Prime symptoms of paradigms protecting themselves this way are a complete lack of openness, receptivity, and a separative isolationism which is not just notable in modes of communication, but often socially shunning, and sometimes behind physical boundaries.

What stands out about paradigms, and their adherents, are the two polar extremes of inertia and momentum. In this, paradigms obey all of Newton’s Laws. The aggregate gestalt of a paradigm has a linear momentum that tenaciously resists deflection because of its massive memetic inertia. One of the most characteristic symptoms of paradigms is that the general impression they create is one of age and retarded development with entrenched memetic percept. This is often encoded into dogma, regulations, “laws” and ritualistic observances which are intended to analogise or symbolise, or artefact symbolising central figures historically relevant to the origin of the paradigm, processes or central tenets. In extreme cases, in the mutually referent “proof” of intrinsic percepts and their extension into dogma, the original stimulus and truth are lost, or so encrypted in layers of overlaid insight intended to supply redundantly extra proof, that they have become largely synthetic.

There are two cases of paradigm evolution: paradigm-drift, and paradigm-shift, PD and PS.

Both of these cases have almost exactly analogising parallels in the development of personality as it takes place in social individuation, in personal psychospiritual evolution, and in actual phylogenetic evolution.

In Drift, the genetic material of the domain, IECs (Intellectual-Emotional-Constellations) in the form of memes, undergoes very gradual change due to spontaneous new endogenous percept generation, a slow percolating import of extrinsic percept across the semi-permeable boundary, and sometimes also (in scientific paradigms but not often in theological ones) a gradual relinquishing to obsolescence of minor percepts. The bounding envelope of the domain can therefore be visualised to drift slowly, leaving perceived minor obsolescence behind, retaining central tenets, and incorporating new minor percept. Somewhat like amoebic phagocytosis in which a protozoan slowly oozes pseudopodia around the same old reliable nutrient, bodily incorporating it, steering away from the indigestible while discarding metabolic product by exocytosis and leaving this in its trail, paradigm drift is like a very slowly crawling envelope of mainly unevolving percept. In strict evolutionary terms this is taxonomic stasis, or at best anagenesis, or phyletic gradualism. (See previous post re micro and macroevolution.) To sum up, central tenets (memes, IECs) are retained, minor secondary percept may be discarded in perceived obsolescence and replaced by new minor tenets, by import or paradigm-endogenous generation. What is never sacrificed is the relational functionality of coherence between central tenets and all other through-percolating percept of lesser relevance. So for example, did alchemy slowly evolve into modern chemistry and materials science.

Paradigm Shift could not be more different – it represents quantum leaps in worldview, an entirely different gestalt with new major percept, it implies a radically new interpretation. In Shift, it is previously sacred percept, foundational tenets, which become understood as fundamentally untrue or truly obsolescent, and are discarded, ejected beyond the leaping domain boundary, sometimes with an entire set of coherent subsidiary percept. Often these memetic ejecta find adherents and are preserved in smaller sectarian or cultist clusters where they may survive as “anathematised” satellite paradigms.

In Shift, the bounding domain envelope quantum-leaps to embody radically new understanding. In strict evolutionary terms this is equivalent to cladogenesis, and, as often in that case, amounts to splitting of species into a new taxon by the complete extinction of an older one. So did the Ptolemaic geocentric system sway before the Copernican heliocentric insight, despite all the vitriolic religionistic condemnation and anathematisation. So also, did polytheism leap to an understanding of a single divine in Akhenaton’s mind in the 14th Century before the present era, and find a monotheism symbol most apt for the society of his time to set the precedent for all future monotheistic religious evolution.

A vitally important point to note is that Brahe, Copernicus and Galileo, looking at the anthropomanically entrenched geocentric system, understood its fundamental tenets extremely well, and had to reject it on the basis of evidence gained by daring investigation. So did Akhenaton understand contemporary Egyptian polytheism exceedingly well, and had to reject it due to a leap of psychospiritual insight with an immediate conceptual consequence, thus soaring to an entirely different perspective of physical and spiritual reality. The fact that he chose the Aten, the sun-disk as analogising symbol for a divine-single, indivisible cosmic force, lying in its obvious radiant power and fundamental life-importance, does not mitigate the possibility that this was a socially intended motivation, and that his personal insight most likely went vastly beyond this.

As I have illustrated in several previous posts, no classical evolutionist can penetrate temporally beyond an original moment of moments and not be faced with an apparent ultimate enigma of how and where the entire cosmic ontogeny began – a salient and vital focus on a creative aspect. Neither can anyone conventionally leaning towards creationism, but who has any truly objective reasoning power remaining, the merest titbit of conceptual receptivity and investigative daring, any longer deny the absolute reality of evolutionary mechanism in all nature.

My thesis is that the polarisation between these two camps is completely unfounded in a higher and harmonically unifying perspective. These two interpretations are dualistic aspects of a single reality that embodies them both indivisibly. They form a bi-unity, two sides of a doublesided coin where one can indeed see one side at a time, but only with X-rays at a higher vibrational level, can both sides be seen simultaneously and understood to be indivisible. You cannot pry one side loose from a coin without destroying the coin. There is no evolution without creation, neither is there any creation without evolution. Only evolutive creation or creative evolution exist. Indubitably, if nothing is too impossible for a divinely creative agency – then neither is evolution which is perhaps the single most natural process observable in every single subjectifiable continuum available to human perception and consciousness. I have defined and quantified this holistically unifying perspective of universal origin from several perspectives in earlier articles and will not over-expand this piece by doing that here again. This thesis did not arise from an initial personal motivation to unify – it began with a serious in-depth study spanning decades, of comparative religion, of cosmogony, cosmology, astrophysics, radio-astronomy, exobiology, trans-species genetics, molecular and morphogenetic embryology, immunology, teratology, mineralogy, crystallography, geomorphology, neurology, physics and electronics, philosophy and psychology, psychoneuroimmunology, acoustics and music, among others.
The realisation that the dualistic bi-unity of the evolutive and creative aspects of cosmic origin offered a vitally precious unification, came later.

Why do I so passionately wish to present this view? Because I believe that there are few things as precious as knowing where you truly come from, your true natural origin and heritage. This allows you to authentically understand your cosmic birthright, your intrinsically divine nature, the essence of your being, where it is that we may, can, and dare to strive in full realisation of our potentials, true harmlessness and a divine loving intelligence that continually quests for its intimately channelled personal birth within you.

Why even then? Simply, because I love all that lives and strives.

Frank Valentyn

no1nose
Tachyon

Very impressive! Quite a castle you have built here. But its made of sand and will wash away with the next tide. Go to any second hand bookshop and you will find many tomes like yours - works that didn’t stand the test of time. You can only watch as new discoveries make your work obsolete.

But why wait? Why not start out with something that is already tatty but actually has the potential to sell a few copies and earn you some money?

Ok Mr. Smart Guy you have challenged me. So it is time to put your money where your mouth is. I am now going to give you an idea for a book that is worth a lot of money. Its free to you – all I ask is that you return the favor and give me an idea of equal value.

Here is the idea:

Write a Cook/Diet book based on the Astrological sign of the thing that is eaten. That is if one desires more “Virgo” qualities one should eat foods that are “Virgo”. I am sure you can work out the details and make it sufficiently credible and plausible.

That’s it. Now it’s your turn – put up or shut up.
mad.gif
Tachyon8491
Thank you for your so kind and very diplomatically extended invitation Mr Longnose, I do always accept the opportunity to discuss interesting, vital and challenging issues where there is a clear indication of fruitful outcome - not in a sense of competition whatsoever, but rather in the sense of a meeting of minds that, even if widely separated by a paradigmatic divide, can reach higher together than they could alone.

I have met many of these minds, hearts and spirits, and truly value the interaction I have had with them, and will have with them in future, as we know we will all gain profitably by our communications.This is predicated on two parties not just listening to each other, but actually considering what is said, not letting it go by misconceived while thinking up one's own wonderfully pre-emptive gambit.

Such fruitful communication is based on a love of knowledge, love of understanding, a thirst for growth through interaction and the wonderful sense of encountering minds with integrity of intent.

You, however, are not one of them. I would be loath to explain why, if however you were to reflect, with some doubtlessly difficult to evoke humbleness, on the calibre of intellectual content of your own posts, and the cretinously maniacal emotional tone contended in your last, you may, with some effort, pick up a clue.

FV
Tachyon8491
Additional Considerations on Paradigm Shift and Drift

It is indisputable that two wide temporally separated snapshots of accumulatively drifting paradigm have a high probability of generating the appearance of Shift having occurred – just as there are gaps in the biostratigraphic record, so are there conspicuous gaps in the historical record. Such evolution does not deny the possibility of an intermediate quantum leap in development, in the same way that phyletic gradualism does not deny the possibility of rapid mutational development occurring. This is exactly the evolutionary Gould and Eldredge concept of alternating anagenesis and cladogenesis in the punctuated equilibrium model: slow, almost static periods of balanced equilibrium with the environment (whether personally psychospiritual, paradigmatic, sociological or ecological) alternated with more transient phases of very rapid evolutionary development.

When two biostratigraphic, or historical snaphots, widely separated by a known epochal period, are compared where shift has occurred between them, there is therefore every probability that this has been due to accumulative drift. In the same sense, macroeveolution depends on some ratiometrically proportioned accumulative contribution from microevolution, and rapid, cladogenistic splitting of species. What we may confidently infer is that the punctuated equilibrium model has an extensively multilevelled action, an analogous aetiology, in all possible continua where change ocurs over time.

In the effect of new minor percept arising within a drifting paradigm, either endogenously or due to percolating import across the semi-permeable domain boundary, the attributional makeup of central tenets is unavoidably affected. The relational adhesion between central and peripheral tenets implies this minor modulation. Although the core character identity of central tenets may therefore remain statically preserved, the modulating effect of slowly evolving attributional overlay changes its personality.

We can see this effect operating in many mythologies, where the personality of an identity is modulated by cultural osmosis and import of percept. So we have the Interpretatio Romana, or the “Roman understanding” which occurred in the admixture of Roman and Greek culture after the Roman conquest of the Greeks in the 3rd Century. There, Artemis became identified as Diana, Demeter became Ceres, Vesta adopted Hestia’s identity, Poseidon became Neptune, the Apollo identity remained Apollo but instead of only being responsible for prophecy, medicine and archery, adopted some of this personality in his main task of being god of the Sun. Greeks maintained a culture that worshiped many gods but tolerated imported diversity, and generously accepted the immigration of divine identities by familial adoption. The change of names involved does not mean loss of central identity, as each admixed cultural sector could readily identify who was being referred to in their “new personalities.” In a further development of this, socio-historically and memetically in realtime, the original name and possibility of common cross-identification may be lost in the understanding of a more modern cultural consensus – e.g., Diana no longer identifiable as Artemis – at that point, shift may be said to have occurred, the product, in this case, of accumulative drift.

So we see the effect operating also in evolutionary development at the lowest rungs of the organicity continuum: there, vertical gene transfer (generational between parents and offspring) tends to preserve core identity, while horizontal, or lateral gene transfer (by processes of conjugation, transduction and transformation, between different species) affects the phenotypic expression, individual personality, and implies an extrinsic modulation of the core identity. I

In the case of shifting memetic paradigm, those minds questing beyond the bounding envelope understand well the tenets, relationships of percept, the reciprocally mutual proof of intrinsic memes and IECs comprising the body of the paradigm to be discarded. In stretching the envelope, their leaping insight contains all precedent and evolves it. The paradox to penetrate is that those clinging to a set of discarded tenets, contained in a rapidly separating envelope, splitting off and left behind, regard themselves as adherents of a different, and not an obsolete paradigm. II In evolutionary terms this case is so common that it is the general one, where old static taxons, among them the coelacanth, molluscs and reptiles, coexist with those species that quantum-leaped beyond them. In all rationality we may therefore regard the present form of Homo Sapiens as transitional, to be evolved beyond.

This process has an almost exact equivalent in the case of DNA-recombinative meiotic cell-division with, or without advantageous mutational development, as compared to the normal mitotic cellular complement of the individual. The new phenotype which is potentially enabled in a future conception effectively contitutes a new paradigm. When the “apple has not fallen far from the tree,” we may say that this analogises paradigmatic drift, whereas in radical personality difference, shift has occurred.

Frank Valentyn


I From a referred source in a previous article, “Vital Tree of Life,” –

Biologists recognize two types of gene transfer from one organism to another: vertical and horizontal. Vertical gene transfer occurs between parents and offspring, and horizontal gene transfer is the transfer that may occur between organisms otherwise. It is in bacteria that horizontal gene transfer has been studied most extensively, particularly in the last decade. Three types of horizontal gene transfer are known: conjugation, transduction, and transformation.

Conjugation is a type of sexual reproduction exhibited by some bacteria, the process involving the exchange of genetic material by means of a tube or bridge, the transfer of DNA occurring either in one direction or in both directions.

Transduction involves the transfer of genetic material from one bacterium to another with the intermediation of a virus. Essentially, when the virus infects one bacterium, it often carries away pieces of that bacterium's genome, and those pieces, upon the infection of a new bacterium, become incorporated into the second bacterial genome.

Finally, transformation is the process involving the uptake or incorporation of DNA fragments (plasmids) by a bacterium, first observed in 1944 by Oswald Avery. In this context, the important aspect of horizontal gene transfer is that in primitive cells such as prokaryotes it is now apparent that horizontal gene transfer readily occurs across species. (Doolittle, Ford W.; Scientific American February 2000)


II To be noted is a recent case of two Ph.Ds., highly qualified in both theology and advanced physics, arguing about geocentricism – one adamant that the theory was completely valid and that not only did the sun and planets rotate around the Earth, justifying this with extended formulaic reasoning, but that the Earth was indeed the true centre of the universe. I treated this case in The Nature of Being:-

There appears to be popular contention in an allegedly acute conceptual difference in the meaning of the alternative terms “geocentrism” and “geocentricism” – both of these are semantically derived from their root-form, “geocentric.” The suffix “-ism” refers instantially to processes, conditions, or beliefs. In the use of the terminological suffix “ic-ism,” this compound form is referent to “the belief in,” (-ism) a condition ( ic.) For example, for circles with identical epicentre but different radii we use the term “concentric” – a systemic condition or belief in a system definitively identified by this condition would justifiably be referable to as “concentricism.” A Linguistic alternative which is justified in the elisional omission of a homophonic syllable which generates a degree of redundancy, would allow “concentrism.” The choice of which semantic variant to use is not one of strict logical context as much as it is one of style, and the optionally extra stress elicited by the non-omission of the semi-redundant syllabic homophony in the “ icism” ending. When X is a thing, X-ic refers to it as an attributional condition and X-icism in the first instance refers to a belief in, or global application of, the attributional condition as a contextually applicable aspect of a system, or conceptual constellation of attributional elements. The idea that geocentrism and geocentricism are radically different conceptually, is singularly due to a synthetically definitive conceptual allocation which has everything to do with a quite personal inclinational attribution, and nothing whatsoever, with an intrinsic differentiation in fundamental, or interpretable meaning with any rational basis for such a lexical tradition. As other examples: parameter, parametric, parametrism / parametricism; center, centrism / centricism. In cases where the lexical root is such as, for example, “horizon,” we have: “horizontal” and conceivably “horizontalism,” – the generation of “horizontism” does not confer a specifically interpretable lexical bias with a one-to-one conceptual implication to these forms, apart from a synthetic attribution.

It is quite humorous to have recently witnessed an extremely protracted debate between two users of the internet arena, carefully defining themselves as being equipped with Ph.Ds in the area of contention, arguing about geocentricism (I want to accentuate the condition this time.) One of these is a literal geocentrist (I’m being economical now) who truly believes that (despite any vain scientific proofs which are dismissed outright) that the universe actually (yes, really) rotates about the Earth. Bringing in, and scholastically quoting reams of misconfractively interpreted expert reference, plethoras of scriptural chapter and verse and conceptually re-translated “fact,” they got on most diplomatically until finally, with some snide ad hominem tangents, they disagreed to disagree (I meant that,) parted their learned ways, and left it all there. Their dialogue, neatly marked in two contrastingly coloured fonts, would seminally appear to lend proof to a thesis that one can equip oneself with a doctoral degree and still believe that an engine actually rotates around its crankshaft. In slight extension of this, the car, the road and the starry infinitude rotate around that crankshaft too, unless of course you switch off the relativistically misperceived engine. For that matter, seeing that pistons do go up and down, the entire cosmos must be in a pluri-dynamic oscillatory hopping modality. More in view perhaps, is that the entire universe must of necessity revolve around the mote in an eye – and seeing that we are binocularly equipped, I would dare quip that the onus as which eye to choose for this onerous cosmic fulcrum is in the mite of the beholder.


(From: The Nature of Being, copyright © FV, Frank Valentyn 2003 to present, all rights reserved; Original endnote LXXXII, p 487; Part One; Chapter Five, Meditations; Page 99)



555Joshua
I am personally tired of all these "God fearing" people protesting evolution. It is quite obvious that it exists, and they are ignorent fools.
Tachyon8491
The Psychodynamics of Energy Control

All entities in an ecology compete with each other to their own best advantage. The modes of that competition vary widely, from direct predation of another species, to the exploitative use, access-denying occupation, or destructive alteration of resources. This competition essentially amounts to a competition for energy. It can be spectacularly evident in a closed eco-environment with many non-motile species limiting each other's proliferation, displacing each other, or affecting each other with their metabolic products. This can be as simple as one species denying another sunlight or water or as complex as one having an inhibiting hormonal effect on another. In hierarchies of interdependence between species that can contain very many relational pathways of which a food-chain is one example, there is also vital mutual beneficiation in the energy-processing modes of one species advantaging those of others.

Each species has modes of accessing energy that may overlap with those of others, but also possesses unique specialisation allowing it to occupy energy-source domains, access and utilise energy resources in highly specific ways - these specialisations manifest in mutual ecological pressures that balance in a usually delicate equilibrium of interdependencies. So we have generalists and specialists, generalism and specialism. A conspicuous symptom of this is in the balance between a specialised predating species and its predated species where the numerical predominance of them varies in a complimentary oscillation over time. As the predatory species over-utilises the predated one it disadvantages itself and declines numerically which then allows a numerical resurgence of the predated species.

The picture evoked is of a living matrix of interrelating and mutually interdependent species with multifactorial pathways of reliance between them crossing in nodes, each node an identifiable species, where pressure applied to any one node spreads out circumspherically to affect all surrounding nodes to degrees varying from minimal to catastrophic.

All species we may consider in this living matrix, live out their species' mass-aggregate effect in a vastly lesser conscious expression than that enabled by human consciousness - choice potential available to them is narrowly limited to their morphological and biochemical constitution, or a spectrum of neurally embedded fixed action programs (FAPs) which are elicited by specific environmental trigger situations and as such, across most of the species continuum, the concept of "choice" does not apply.

In lower primate species, monkeys and apes, the degree of conscious intentionality over the enactment of alternative choice potential, increases, is however often strongly frameworked by socialised protocols of behaviour, therefore restricted, and still separated from that available to humans by an enormous divide. We can see the living ecomatrix therefore expressing itself in mostly passive implementation of intrinsic potentials with the exception of the most evolved primate, human species. It is humans who have more capacity for predicting outcomes of the implementations of alternative choice than the entire remainder of the matrix.

We do not hold oysters, sharks or even orang-utans ethically responsible for their environmental effects but certainly apply such responsibility to humans. This allocatable responsibility lies in a continuum the view of which must of necessity be complicated more by the very necessary consideration of human cognitive-attitudinal attributes. Can we apply the same ethical expectations to an Amazonian farming family carving a desperately needed econiche by slash-and-burn techniques, as we can to the relatively far more educated management of a logging company marketing exotic woods from the same area? Educational differences, belief systems, perpetuated traditional behaviours and psychospiritual stances towards the environment radically affect how humans interact with it. Pertinently, we must also recognise that humans would not have come into being, not would their existence be maintainable were it nor for a vast segment of other living beings in the ecomatrix. As heterotrophic organisms (those that cannot directly obtain all their energy needs in a form un-preprocessed by intermediate organisms) humans are vitally reliant for their very survival on vast domains of other heterotrophs and autotrophic organisms (those that can directly access un-preprocessed energy forms.) Mostly such reliance is frighteningly user-transparent and nonchalantly taken for granted.

At least 40 000 different plant, animal, fungal, bacterial and viral species are used by humans in components of foods, medicines, clothing and shelter. More than a thousand important plants and animals have been identified as threatened by extinction. The fact that many of the delicate relational paths of interdependence are not well known or understood also makes it difficult to distinguish between species of alleged greater or lesser importance. In many such assessments, the perceived importance of an endangered species has an anthropocentric focus, how important it is for humans, and not specifically centered on an intrinsic value of the species itself. Of the 1,75 million species that have been identified, classified and named, regarded as a mere fraction of the total number in the ecomatrix, estimated to be between ten to thirteen million, most biologists accept the evolutionary biologist Edward Wilson's assessment that at present the annual extinction rate amounts to 27 000 species dying out and disappearing forever from the Earth. That estimate is based on observed evidence of damage to, and the disappearance of ecosystems and our knowledge of the species inhabiting them. Typically this involves tropical forests, jungle and grasslands, deforestation, desertification, alteration of natural water levels and courses, and devastating anthropogenic destruction and pollution.

In an ever-greater human entanglement with the environment since the development agricultural techniques some 10 000 years ago, humanity has increased 1 200-fold, from around 5 million to six-billion and in its destruction of natural habitats forms the single greatest threat to biodiversity. The depression of so many nodes in the ecomatrix and the total destruction of so many others is causing a wave of reaction that reflects inwards on the primary agent of these effects, on the human species itself, which accordingly has begun to seriously affect itself by affecting others.

Of a conservative two billion hectares of soil that have been degraded by human activity, 28% has been specifically due to agriculture, deforestation has been responsible for 29% and overgrazing for 34 %. A third of the world's land area consists of arid and semiarid areas, so-called drylands, where desertification has become a serious problem. These drylands support various populations amounting to close to a billion people. Of these regions, 70% are sensitively susceptible to degradation - 15% have been so seriously degraded that agricultural output has dropped to half of previous levels and fifty percent are degraded to noticeable degrees. Quite logically, economic concerns often amounting to a crisis status have resulted from practices brought on by the participants themselves.

In 1995 around 29 000 sq km of rain forest were destroyed, close to double that of the previous year. Deforestation in the Amazon, one of the greatest repositories of biodiversity on Earth and one of our greatest oxygen generators, amounted to an annual 21 200 sq km in the decade ending 1988. Although the level of deforestation is alleged to have dropped to 18 600 sq km in 1996 and a further reduction was promised by the Brazilian government in 1997, there is evidence that selective reporting distorts a trend that shows a gradual overall increase.

The world's oceans have been so seriously depleted that entire industries relying on them have died and this has led to the impoverishment of whole communities who have not even been able to find buyers for their equipment and infrastructure. Major studies have found that since industrialised fishing began in the 1950s, the oceans have globally lost more than ninety percent of large predatory animals such as the blue marlin and cod. A stark statistic is that industrialised fishing reduces fish stocks by up to eighty percent in some fifteen years, and although some non-predated species then rebound, these soon follow a devastating decline. Another study of fish stocks under U.S. government control reached a 2001 conclusion by the Pew Oceans Commission, that only 22% of these were being fished in a sustainable manner, with twelve of the thirteen largest oceanic fishing enterprises already severely depleted. Globally, toxin-polluted and overfished lakes, seas and oceans have not only lost fish stocks but the level of carbonic acid in them is increasing at a rate one hundred times faster than the world has witnessed in literally millions of years.(1)

The "metabolic products" of our ever-increasing global industrialisation, synergised by a nonchalantly optimistic population increase, have so contaminated our atmosphere, groundwater, rivers, lakes and seas, even the arctic oceans where DDT metabolites and other toxins show up in seal blubber, that it evokes a picture of humankind tightening a noose of toxins around its own throat and progressively choking itself.

Atmospheric CO2 concentration from mainly fossil-fuel combustion and agriculture has reached present levels that have not been exceeded in the last 420 000 years, and most likely not even during the last twenty million years. Its current rate of increase has not had a precedent in the last 20 000. Of other greenhouse gases that have now been conclusively proven to cause anthropogenically caused global warming, the amount of methane has more than doubled since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution almost three centuries ago, whereas nitrous oxide which can trap around 300 times more heat than an equivalent amount of CO2, has increased by 17% since its pre-industrial levels.

For those of us who casually run fresh water by just opening a convenient tap, it perhaps comes as a shocking realisation that most of Africa suffers such chronic water shortage that access to drinkable and often seriously degraded water may entail journeys of several hours, or in worst cases a full day, and that over 95% of untreated raw urban sewage in developing countries with their ever-increasing populations is discharged directly into surface waters such as rivers and harbours.

The world's fossil fuel reserves are being consumed at rates several million times their original deposition rates, and although there is some latitude in the scientific analyses of how long these can still be commercially exploited, there is no doubt that their "extinction" is in sight. More than two-thirds of fossil-fuel oil consumption in the United States is in the transport sector, aircraft fuel uses some 14% of oil in that sector with locomotives and ships consuming much of the remaining 5%. With many so-called renewable energy sources having a distinct seasonal sensitivity and dropping to their lowest U.S. level of just six percent of total energy consumption in twelve years, nuclear power becoming unprecedentedly unpopular in most of continental Europe with decommissioning planned for almost all existing reactors after living out their useful lifetimes without replacement, it is clear that the human world is facing a progressively critical energy shortage.

To the undoubted chagrin and frustration of some large corporates and even governments, conservation activists have achieved some major successes that have cramped some of their more nearsighted exploitative ambitions, among these restrictions on fishing, logging and mining, farming and industry, power generation and commercialisation, their techniques and planned locations. Yet, with energy needs growing ever greater, one wonders where the threshold lies at which technology moves in and the conservationists are forced to capitulate.

Some of the high-tech improvements on nature and its multi-million year evolutionary trials in excellence, efficiency and adaptation, such as genetically engineered crops, are acutely contentious and have led to the necessary development of newly specialised herbicides and pesticides which have unacceptably high mutagenic and teratogenic potentials.

James Lovelock formulated the Gaia hypothesis in the 1970s, the percept that the planet behaves like a single living organism - the concept is regarded as not having much practical scientific merit although it is agreed that the entire physical planet including its biosphere behaves like an integrated system. Perhaps the main reason for its practical value being regarded as minimal is comprised of a twofold impression gained from these integrated planetary systems: firstly the Earth shows a great latency in cause-effect evolutions due to the sheer enormity of the systems involved and long lag effects before symptoms become noticeable, coupled with the fact that an almost incredible amount of damage can be absorbed before non-return thresholds are reached and therefore also a great apparent capacity for self-repair; secondly, due to a very human cognitive-perceptual process of categorisation and classification, the enormous systems in the integral ecomatrix are separatively individualised and the degree of coupling between them is seen as flexible and loosely interdependent. However we see this coupling and systems interdependence, whether in a diffractive scientific view or an idealistic esoteric perspective, an outstanding fact is that the aggregate human species organism has become a substantial controller of the planetary bio-engine of which it forms an inseparable part. More pertinent is that the modes of control, simplistically, the way the meters are read and the buttons pressed, acutely rely on the state of human consciousness, the integral resultant of its present phase of psychospiritual maturity. To make this percept as acutely subjectified in our own consciousness we should abbreviate or acronimise that, perhaps Human Psychospiritual Maturity, HPM, is suitable to work with.

What is HPM actually, can we quantify it more closely, clarify it, understand its implied and intrinsic intentionality by projecting its built-in idealised objectives? In the "H" and "P" components there is not much loose latitude in interpretation, but the "M" component is acutely conjectural and definitionally is itself subject to the very state of its internal perceptual variables that would define it, consequently, would themselves be defined by.

Maturity in the clinical psychological sense implies the product of individuation and socialisation, and in a deeper sense, the understanding of selfhood in a harmonic context with all non-self. It is of course easy to address and condemn leanings towards materialism, egocentricity, onesided and self-serving elitism and myopically destructive exploitation of resources - we can easily see these symptoms distributed throughout all levels of human activity and enterprise, personal expression, trade and commerce, international relations, border conflicts, wars and social system stresses. Very relevant here is that we see that the individual worldlines of all subjectifiable entities in the ecomatrix mutually restrict each other's freedoms - complete freedom is a furtive and unrealisable ideal - it is the manner in which we mutually restrict each other's freedoms, and reciprocally, how we enable each other's latitudes of freedom, that controls how we can, and may express our lives and potentials. Practical freedom, and the only kind there is, and the only kind that we should allow ourselves to pursue, lies in harmonic relationships, a harmonicity in which mutual beneficiation is mediated, catalysed, and ensured by psychospiritual maturity.

Most of us know and understand these insights well already and ask how we can optimise the quality of lives, trans-species lives that is, not just anthropocentrically, human ones, and ensure long-term viability. Even this does not go far enough in its projection of ideal: we need to see this long-term viability itself as being a transitional phase towards a more ultimate growth of human potentials. We occupy a drifting planetary home in space with walls, floors and ceilings that are sensitively alive - we literally eat, drink, breathe and interpenetrate each other vitally.

In contrast with HPM we need to define its opposite, effectively this amounts to how the aggregate human species organism has interacted with its ecomatrix up to the present, an immaturity with some individual and grouped exceptions, but in its collective impact severely destructive, misperceiving and misunderstanding the harmonic pathways of interrelation.

What we need is a more mature understanding of the concept "harmonic freedom" - this is not the freedom of the past where one trading company visiting the newly exploitable paradise of penguin islands in the Antarctic circle in 1876, boiled down 405 600 birds for their oil.(2) It is not the freedom of the slave trade or the opium wars, or the Blue Whale hunt of 1931 that killed 30 000 until the "harvest" of 1966 could only deliver 70 pathetic victims worldwide.(3) It is not the freedom which Russia in its communist phase abused by stealthily violating international treaties and dumping some 12 million curies, 7 000 tons of solid nuclear waste, 1 600 tons of liquid nuclear waste and in excess of 18 complete nuclear reactors, many still containing their fuel rods, a complete nuclear submarine with nuclear warheads, and 900 tons of radioactive water from scrapped nuclear submarines into the Barents Sea, Kara Sea (4), and the Sea of Japan.(5) It is not the freedom that Japan insists on in still catching up to 650 whales for "scientific research" per year and no less than 7 000 since a worldwide ban on whaling in 1986, where the "scientific research" exclusively consists of degustatory tests in Japanese restaurants, and claims that whale populations have recovered sufficiently to resume commercial whaling. (6) It is not the freedom of the U.S. "Wise Use" Movement which insists that the Earth's resources are certainly not limited and which promotes whaling internationally at every opportunity.(7) Freedom is not causing massive whale strandings such as have occurred on the beaches of Fuerteventura and Lanzarote in the Canary Islands, off Greece and in the Bahamas, hours after military sonar exercises.(8) Freedom is not the forced child labour of an estimated 246 million children worldwide where most of these are working in hazardous and health-damaging environments,(9) nor the quite common council-commanded gang-rape of a woman for the alleged and unproven offence of a relative.(10) Freedom is not the Sharia law that a female rape victim must have four male witnesses to prove that it was not illegitimate sex outside marriage, which can result in a death penalty implemented by being buried up to the head in sand and stoned to death.(11) Freedom is not the religiously enforced Islamic rape of at least nine girls under the age of thirteen, and one of ten, to ensure that they were not virgins before their executions by hanging or shooting, to guarantee that they would go to hell and not paradise.(12) Perhaps freedom is also not the "L-curve" of wealth distribution in first-world countries and the siphoning of frozen energy in the form of financial instrument to a super-elite , where the top one percent are now estimated to own between forty and fifty percent of the nation's wealth, more than the combined wealth of the bottom 95% (13)

Fundamentally all the above inclusively concern the garnering, control, channelling, transformation, redirection and targeting of energy by the intentionality of human consciousness.

From the author's book The Nature of Being © Frank Valentyn:

QUOTE:
Energy garnering can be regarded as not just a universal symptom of all more organised entities, a vital and primary necessity, but as much a natural right as the right to breathe (not to speak of air quality.) The phenomenon of energy funnelling cannot be called unnatural however, especially perhaps, because it is so markedly a behavioural component of our society. We take energy funnelling for granted – it is after all what builds roads, bridges, provides transport, educational and healthcare infrastructure, finances weapons research and the military and allows us our first tentative steps into space, doesn’t it? We need to carefully distinguish though, between organised energy targeting for optimal social benefit and energy funnelling, and it seems not inappropriate to use these as definitive terms, giving one a positive and the other a negative connotation. Organised energy targeting may philosophically be regarded as comprising a mechanism of non-self-serving accumulation and redirection of garnered energy, where we, perhaps stigmatically, may regard funnelling as motivated by egocentric psychodynamics.

The field of these considerations is perhaps best brought into focus by selecting extreme economic cases of energy deprivation, although it must be strikingly obvious that the true question is one concerning the merits of shifting the median. Addressing this issue from a (what many would perhaps regard as idealistic) humanitarian viewpoint, the conspicuous fact is that the capacities to perceive, to recognise, and to respond to classes of poverty and severely restricted economic activity which imply a truly demeaning human existence, may well each be brought into question, severally. That, in itself, is but looking at an extreme case and does not address the delimiting of enforced economic restriction across the social continuum. Wealth per se is not obscene, the selective funnelling of wealth and its concentration in the face of those facing impossible hardship and doom because of the way energy distribution is actually organised, is however, indeed obscene.

When we better realise the degrees of restriction imposed on our lanes of limited behavioural freedom, we see that instead of describing them as high-walled hollow roads, it is more apt to liken them to tunnels. Tunnels, like roads, follow a deterministically prescriptive direction of progress and travel. No longer could you build energy to climb out but have to acquire sufficient energy to break through the tunnel surface. Behavioural freedom of choice is then limited to the width of the tunnel, with the greatest ease of progress perceivable at its lowest horizontal point. This is the road most travelled and well recognisable as the straight and narrow, despite its culturally determined curvatures reflecting the beckoning lights intermittently visible at ends that turn out to merely be branchings or turns. Of course there are the countless many who question laughingly what all the fuss is about, the tunnels are after all full of opportunity, the recognised way to go, their progress parameters constitute meritorious goals and their branching nodes are subject to free and unimpeded choice, aren’t they? Such are the sentiments of the well-programmed to whom the process is transparent and unquestioned. We note that their stance is not to be regretted, nor identified as incorrect or to be atoned for – their stance is resonant with the maxima of their perceptual sensitivities in their individual developmental phase – it is exactly right for them.

Our modern societal lattice is so well-regulated, has achieved such self-reinforcing rigidity, that its allowed behavioural modalities define what is regarded as societally consonant, without much latitude.

Two salient aspects of this are our increasing lack of privacy and progressively rigid and dehumanised enforcement of energy garnering levies, EGLs. In both these aspects, individuals are to all intents and purposes as much the effective property of states as they are in the relatively shifted dynamics of socialistic and communistic regimes. The sophistication and intensity of transparently unseen, or acutely invasive monitoring of our every indexible somatic, psychological and behavioural attribute usable for commercial demagogic manipulation and population control, have escalated to such a degree that we can no longer afford to believe in the freedom of unmonitored expression of who we are or what we wish to achieve.

In this sense, we are progressively becoming, and desired to be, well-predictable, programmable and regulable nodes of expected productivity in the lattice. The musical parallel begs mentioning – it is cohesive melodic entities, quantised individuals, that form an evolving counterpoint in relational harmonic progression – not the music, that forms the melodicism. The one is primary source, the other a secondary and resulting structure which serves in incidental modulatory feedback function to allow individual adjustment of melodic coordination. It is individuals that create society, and societal feedback which allows coordinative, cooperative, or contrasting action.

To a degree, the contention and the conflict have always been between the collective and the individual. Presently however, the music threatens to become owner and conductor, a distorted application of the sense of an integrated whole in orchestrating command, a conflated shift towards scientism and materialistic pragmatism, away from an ever vaguer core of spiritual integrity.

Irrespective of our conformance, or lack of it, to the paradigmatically tolerated and prescriptively enforced behavioural spectrum, there is, what very unscientifically we can only describe as the subtly calling inner voice, intuition, speaking often in symbolic constellations that lie far below a verbal cognitive level, yet these perceptions point unfailingly to exactly the consonance or dissonance of our projected self-expressions, and their resulting resolutive tensions. This, undeniable aspect of our intimate channel to the single underlying whole, the undivided, the sacred inattributable, our source and destination, is our most trustworthy, abiding and unerring compass. Its intuitive indications are through our heart, manifest in our feelings, elicit overlays of testable cognitive percept, which together point the way ahead and the long way home.

END QUOTE. Extracted from: The Nature of Being, Part Three; Afterword, The Psychodynamics of Energy; pp 412-414 Copyright © 2003 to present, FV, Frank Valentyn, all rights reserved.

Whatever we as humans do, in thinking, emoting, speaking, dreaming or planning, or any one singled-out action selected from within our incredibly wide spectrum of human actionable potential, it is the result of our consciousness controlling and steering energy. Depending on how we handle that energy, we can uplift, rescue, succour or nurture, or, disadvantage, depress, debase, deprive and debilitate. However we handle that energy, it is divine stuff, its source is from the divine and wells from an infinite abundance. It is up to each of us to handle it with utmost responsibility, a sense of authentic accountability, and to channel it harmonically in each our own personal melody, aiming to make the music as beautiful and sacred as it is intended.

Frank Valentyn



(1) New Scientist; Marine crisis looms over acidifying oceans; 30th June, 2005. A report commissioned by the Royal Society, of the U.K's National Academy of Science found that if present CO2 emission rates continue until 2100, the Ph-level of global seas and oceans will drop by 0,5 points from its current level of 8,2 - this change is irreversible in any short-term scenario, or by human remediation after the fact. John Raven of the University of Dundee proclaims that "..it will take many thousand of years to return the oceans to their pre-industrial state." Crustaceans, corals, molluscs and certain photosynthetic plankton species (coccolithophores), all organisms which produce calcium shells, will be at ever greater risk as acidification interferes with their ability to form these shells and grow. In consequence, this biomass domain will be less capable of absorbing atmospheric CO2, in turn further affecting these organisms. The result is a runaway positive feedback effect with a potentially catastrophic outcome. The environmental biologist Andrew Watson from the University of East Anglia states that “Most climate scientists think the Kyoto targets themselves are wholly inadequate,” and “We need a sharp decline in CO2 emissions, down to half of today’s levels.”

(2) Ackerman, Diane; The Moon by Whalelight; publ. Chapmans Publishers (1993) ISBN 1 85592 076 X

(3) Encarta Electronic Encyclopaedia (2003) - "Whales"

(4) Zolotkov, Andrei, "On the Dumping of Radioactive Waste at Sea Near Novaya Zemlya", Greenpeace Nuclear Free Seas Campaign; Russian Information Agency Seminar: "Violent Peace - Deadly Legacy", Moscow, September 23 and 24, 1991.

(5) Zylam, Melana, Deep Trouble: Russian Nuclear Waste Dumped in Sea of Japan, "Far Eastern Economic Review" v.156 (March 18, 1993)

(6) Japan's call to resume commercial whaling, which would have ended a nineteen year moratorium on whale hunts, was firmly rejected by the International Whaling Commission by 29 votes to 23 with five countries abstaining (21st June, 2005.) Japan currently catches a total of around 650 whales of all types yearly, although it is allowed 400 Minke, specifically, under the "scientific research programme." Claiming that whale populations have adequately recovered, Japan wants to increase its annual Minke whale quota from 400 to 800. Since the moratorium took effect in 1986 more than 7 000 whales have been killed under the glorifying banner of scientific research, mainly by Japan. Other presently pro-whaling nations are Norway and Iceland which still bring in catches although public resistance to whale meat is palpably increasing. In Japan, 2000 supermarkets have stopped selling it, although Japanese diplomats repeatedly refer to anti-whalers as cultural imperialists, claiming that eating whale is a tradition dating back 4000 years, despite the fact that large-scale commercial hunting did not properly take off until after the Second World War. (New Scientist, 21st June, 2005)

(7) The "Wise Use" Movement consists of a loose coalition of anti-environmentalist organisations and started in the U.S. in 1988. It has had a hand in funding whaling and pro-whaling interests and actively promotes the perception that planetary resources are not limited. (New Scientist, 20th June, 2005)

(8) Autopsies of Cuvier's beaked whales (Ziphius cavirostris), Blainville's beaked whale (Mesoplodon densirostris), and Gervais' beaked whale (Mesoplodon europaeus) found microvascular haemorrhage in vital organs, associated with systemic embolism, gas-bubbles in the vascular system, associated with the tremendous sonic impact of new military sonars. Strandings of these whales were observed literally hours after known exercises occurred. In the Canaries Islands case this was a period of four hours. (Nature; October 9, 2003)

(9) UNICEF; "Child Protection."

(10) The case of Mukhtar Mai (Mukhtaran Bibi) - www.mukhtarmai.com and a plethora of international news agencies.

(11) The case of Sufiyatu Huseini (Nigeria) - O'Sullivan, Michael; amaericamagazine.org

(12) The 1979 Tehran Revolution, fundamentalist Muslim regime led by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. A credible list of 14,028 names is available (male and female) and some sources claim figures of several tens of thousands. 187 of these were women under the age of 18, 9 girls under the age of 13, 14 between the ages of 45 to 70. The youngest girl to be executed was just 10 years old. 32 of these women were reported to have been pregnant at the time of their execution. (Establishment of the Islamic Republic in Iran & The Present Situation For Women - Darabi, Parvin; Dr. Homa Darabi Foundation; http://www.homa.org)

(13) Schweikart, David; political philosopher who proposes “Economic Democracy.” After Capitalism; Schweickart, David Ph.D. publ: Rowman and Littlefield, 2002; ISBN 0-7425-1300-9. Re L-curve, this has no relation to the Tikhonov curve, sometimes referred to by the same name, which has its roots in fine engineering for analysis purposes.
555Joshua
[removed by admin] You expect someone to read that?!?


Gone

admin's note: Could you please be a little bit more constructive and polite in your comments?

^It's a little late to be reading this^
mikmik
Yawn. Psuedo science and new age-isms. Hence the use of 'enhanced' semantics and verbosities.

This is not science, it is another spiritual interpretation of life.

Your creation/evolution duality is a tired remix of the yin and yang brand of eastern thought, and your over use of the word 'quantum' and 'paradigm' do little but to impress upon me that you take yourself to seriously, Frank.

This is crap, and i will glady pick any of your so called 'new viewpoints' and go the distance.

There is a fundamental discordance between creationists and 'evolutionists', and that is one of approach. One supposes an answer and seeks to support that answer, and the other is a conclusion built on observations so structured to support it.

It doesn't get any more antithetical than that, Frank. It is very good, necessary in fact, to understand each other, but the implorings to do this in order to fully understand out exustense is a retread of everyone who ever wished to tell others what to think, every naive claim that someone has "The Answer" to all our problems.

You seem completely oblivious to the state of perceptions that are incongruent by thier very constructions, like digital and analog, like general relativity and quantum dynamics, like oil and water.

We all want to share in the wonder of how we see things, how we each experience the profound experience of existence and the meaning behind it.

But supposing there is a common foundation in structure, even purpose, of these myriad viewpoints - specifically the opposites of creationism and Darwinism, is misguided at best, and dangerous and naive at worst, and egocentric and opportunistic at most likely.

You talk details and mechanics but miss the primary difference that you suppose to address, that of the psychspiritual need to see things a certain way. It is a matter of common sense, not couched spiritualism.
Tachyon8491
Dear mixmix,

My deepest apologies for boring you with what you regard as "enhanced semantics and verbosities" - I in turn graciously forgive you for your unbridled animosity which shines rather clearly out of your blunt and unconsidered accusations. Also for the low-class language you use - but then I expect you move in different circles and I truly do understand that this can be very infectious. In response I would prefer not to come down to your level - and far down is what I consider it to be. It is never misguided to wish to remain refined, to use reason, rationale, debate and thetoric to defend your own insights in contrast to those you disagree with, but I suspect you have not had the good fortune to be exposed either to that refinement, nor those techniques.

The fact that you appear to be somewhat semantically challenged is completely forgiveable, and curable too, I would never hold it against you. Except of course, that if you can't come up to an expected linguistic level, than it seems a little ungracious to attack the originator of it instead of alternatively applying a smidgin of self-motivation in picking up your own reading and interpretative powers.

It is interesting of course, that your easy condemnation does not address a single point of the many percepts, precepts, quoted facts or conjectural projections presented in my articles, instead you simply offer a stance, based on your own worldview, which of course must be in advance of anything else offered, unless, naturally, this also agrees with yours. The suspicion presents itself that you probably haven't read much more of this work than some introductory sentences that acutely piqued your ire and motivated you strongly enough to pump out your patronising and over-familiar denunciation, Sir.

Fundamentally my thesis is that the polarised antagonism and precipitous schism between evolutionism and creationism is acutely unnecessary - this is not "new-agish" nor wistful pseudoscientific ambition. To gain some insight into this perspective does however require a substantial paradigm shift, and not just a bit of drift in a few minor percepts - it is however accomplishable and offers a resolution which I regard as preciously vital, not just in its psychospiritual implications, but pertinently (sorry I keep using these five-syllable words but they come naturally to some) also in its ability to modulate interpersonal dynamics, and those between greater memetic groupings. Ultimately there is only a single all, a cosmic continuum, an "universum" which, diffracted into as many specialised facets of perception and interpretation, subdomains or reams of continua, once had no quantised ontology, no symmetries or assymetries, no faceting. There is every possible reason for seeing evolutionary mechanisms as creatively developmental, and in an ultimacy, to see the original ontogenic quantisation as being a moment (in itself a temporally quantised percept) of creation that is indivisible from evolutionary process.

If you regard that as second-hand old-hat, please do feel welcome. It's obviously not intended for you. Many appear to find the derived insight, as it is built up carefully from both a pragmatic scientific view concomitantly with deep spirituality, to be a vital convergence and a fulfilling answer. Of course, if you believe that science and spirituality are fundamentally irreconcilable and irrevocably divergent, don't catch that boat, don't take the journey, and dismiss the destination - that's entirely your choice and you have the fullest right to it. Fortunately my book The Nature of Being, is selling well and I have every wonderfully satisfying indication that quality people do recognise quality. I am getting very laudatory feedback from Ph.Ds in many disciplines, from the head of a TV service and film producer, among others. To place that in perspective, it is they who are applying some ambouchure to the trumpet and not I, I have a very humble stance towards my own work, but certainly believe in its fundamental tenets utterly.

Opposites of course are always exactly that aren't they... two sides of a coin that are mutually denying, can only each be seen singly, and one only believed in where the other is imaginary, fictitious, or each valid in their own epistemological domain but totally unrelatable and irreconcilable, until the paradoxical dualism, the bi-unity, is seen as resolvable from a higher view, just like the two sides of that coin can be seen simultaneously in a higher-frequency radiation band. Agreed that to some this makes no sense whatsoever, it is their phase of psychospiritual development, and exactly right for them. Oh, and please learn how to spell - I promise that it will serve you well, lend your own stance a little more weight and definitely assist you in being somewhat more believable yourself.

FV
Guest

the 8 hour work day would have to extended to 96 hours per 24 hour period.

By my calculation it would take approximately 45 minutes to place an order at a drive through.

The average book would weigh 16 lbs

A bottle of aspirin would be 12 feet tall to accomodate the directions.


A stop sign would consist of 2 pages.

Jack and Jill would still be on the top o the Hill explaining the how they could manipulate H2o and the well bucket to fly back down.

What am I talking about ?

mikmik
QUOTE
Opposites of course are always exactly that aren't they... two sides of a coin that are mutually denying, can only each be seen singly, and one only believed in where the other is imaginary, fictitious, or each valid in their own epistemological domain but totally unrelatable and irreconcilable, until the paradoxical dualism, the bi-unity, is seen as resolvable from a higher view, just like the two sides of that coin can be seen simultaneously in a higher-frequency radiation band.
<br>No, they are not always exactly that. Ahhh, only one believed in where the other is imaginary...sigh...

Yes, well, seeing you object to my primitive verbal anachronisms, perhaps I shall bedzzle you with vernacular par a l'exellance.

In any event, this being one not imaginary, but brilliantly illuminated one you behold in the presense of your electron fired phosphoresence in myriad rainbow liminances, in which you will note have words that may or may not be agreeable to your particular taste, but I assure you that though I may be a cro-magnon awoke by a falling star, I posess the intelligene to be determined by my idea, much like everyone else.

You are new age like I am vulgar.

There are many ramifications in that similie, if you want to play language games, let's go. If I have to take five minutes to wade through all your verbiose perfidy, I shall be happy to.

And it is Mr mixmix, to you

Okay, yes, you state that opposites are exactly that, aren't they.

Okay, I'll give you that, if a person is being precise in their description, then yes, it follows that if they present you with two exactly opposite examles of something, that is what they are, by golly.

However, no, you do not know that opposites are "exactly that". What opposites?

For instance, let us consider the definition of 'opposite found on dictionary.com:
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Opposites of course are always exactly that aren't they... two sides of a coin that are mutually denying, can only each be seen singly, and one only believed in where the other is imaginary, fictitious, or each valid in their own epistemological domain but totally unrelatable and irreconcilable, until the paradoxical dualism, the bi-unity, is seen as resolvable from a higher view, just like the two sides of that coin can be seen simultaneously in a higher-frequency radiation band.
<br>No, they are not always exactly that. Ahhh, only one believed in where the other is imaginary...sigh...

Yes, well, seeing you object to my primitive verbal anachronisms, perhaps I shall bedzzle you with vernacular par a l'exellance.

In any event, this being one not imaginary, but brilliantly illuminated one you behold in the presense of your electron fired phosphoresence in myriad rainbow liminances, in which you will note have words that may or may not be agreeable to your particular taste, but I assure you that though I may be a cro-magnon awoke by a falling star, I posess the intelligene to be determined by my idea, much like everyone else.

You are new age like I am vulgar.

There are many ramifications in that similie, if you want to play language games, let's go. If I have to take five minutes to wade through all your verbiose perfidy, I shall be happy to.

And it is Mr mixmix, to you

Okay, yes, you state that opposites are exactly that, aren't they.

Okay, I'll give you that, if a person is being precise in their description, then yes, it follows that if they present you with two exactly opposite examles of something, that is what they are, by golly.

However, no, you do not know that opposites are "exactly that". What opposites?

For instance, let us consider the definition of 'opposite found on dictionary.com:
1) Placed or located directly across from something else or from each other: opposite sides of a building.
2) Facing the other way; moving or tending away from each other: opposite directions.
3) Being the other of two complementary or mutually exclusive things: the opposite sex; an opposite role to the lead in the play
<br>What of north and south-south west? 90deg east vs 89.99deg west? Are they to not considered opposite?

Oh, you may claim, it is but a literary device, and I excercise artistic licence to illustrate my point.

You use cliche!

can only each be seen singly, and one only believed in where the other is imaginary, fictitious, or each valid in their own epistemological domain but totally unrelatable and irreconcilable

What planet did you say is your current residence at?

epistimological domain, the philisophical seperation, the non existense of one's presense to another by reason of non interaction, sigh.... La, la, la, oh sorry.

Yes, but if on opposite side of the coin, they would indeed have import to the observer, or they couldn't be opposite, could they? (I will philosophy here if you want, no I just will). Does anything really exist if we are not aware of it? aha, but then there is nothing to be opposite to if there is no interaction, for opposite is a comparison, and comparison relies on interaction, of a common observer, or of knowledge about what you are comparing yourself opposite to, you see?


Finally, here, I rest my case so completely that I need not bother you but to teach you a lesson in commen decency to keep your trash away from thinkers. It is funny, I get the old "you are vulgar and therefore not of my level" crap all the time, and the "you are vulgar, and that is going to far" all the time.

Well, there is honest vulgarity, and there is dishonest manipulation and disrespect cloaked as good intentions or flowery language. I *** don't care, at least I am open and appraocheable, you see?
And, I wouldn't never, (good grammer aint it) underestimate someone when I challenge them, would I. That would be asking for it (and I have gotten it, believe me). So if you decide I am unknowledgeable and insightful, well you may be setting yourself up. Even smart people have a story, and you would be shocked at mine. I am worse than you think I could be, I have been down there, you see? My circles include the drug addicts on the streets, and being invited to parties at the dean of Chemistry's house with the faculty. Just to set the record straight.

I know BS when I see it, and I ain't puttin' up wit it, see?


QUOTE
until the paradoxical dualism, the bi-unity, is seen as resolvable from a higher view, just like the two sides of that coin can be seen simultaneously in a higher-frequency radiation band.[/
<br>LMAO!!! No, you are not in the least bit 'new age' HAHAHAHAHA!
mikmik
QUOTE
the 8 hour work day would have to extended to 96 hours per 24 hour period.

By my calculation it would take approximately 45 minutes to place an order at a drive through.

The average book would weigh 16 lbs

A bottle of aspirin would be 12 feet tall to accomodate the directions.


A stop sign would consist of 2 pages.

Jack and Jill would still be on the top o the Hill explaining the how they could manipulate H2o and the well bucket to fly back down.

What am I talking about ?
<br>You wanna know funny? i sat looking at that and was trying to see if you meant some relativistic inertial frame LMAO!

The necessity of succinct language? What if you had to prove everything you said?
Insyght
So back on topic...

"Sadness of the Non-Evolutionary Viewpoint, Potentials of Conflict Resolution"

Why is "Non-Evolutionary Viewpoint" - "Sad" and how do "potentials of Conflict Resolution" tie into this?

(Please answer in 30 words or less) biggrin.gif
mikmik
Sorry, Insyght, I didn't see you post while I was making more noise.

I deleted it cool.gif
battlefatigue
sad.gif Y'think!
mikmik
baffledbybullshit, LOL!

I just found this in my bookmarks

Butterflies and wheels - Fighting Fashionable nonsense

Fashionable Dictionary

Okay, it is called 'post-modernist', Frank, your style. Here is a review on a book explaining why the view of astrology is missing the point (sort of like creationism v evolution seperation misses the point - it's a genre!! no less)
QUOTE

Both authors are postmodernists, and they seem to want to outdo each other in being obscure and long-winded. Indeed, there seems to be nothing so simple that the authors cannot make it impenetrable. This is a highly unreadable book. After being told that astrology involves “the human dialogical engagement with divinity”, whatever that means, the reader has constantly to struggle with sentences such as:

Here let us note certain fundamental consequences of our dialogical reading of human nature. In its essential, necessary openness — the inherent duality of dialogue which is also, and most fundamentally, a many-voiced plurality — this reading permanently guarantees us against any possibility of collapse into monolithic solipsism.(p.2)


And this is only 10% into the Introduction! Nobody who writes like this can be accused of clear thinking. Willis and Curry’s ideas can in fact be expressed simply and clearly, but they never are. The problem is that, once the impenetrable overburden is removed, the flaws become obvious and the case falls apart. What should have been a useful and informed discourse ends up as a parade of pretentious inutility. Of which more later.
<a href='http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=137' target='_blank'>Pulling Down The Moon review

This, of course proves nothing so much as but a reality check, a verification of my first reactions and evaluation. It is not proof, but I have no problem tearing any point you make apart, Frank. Pick one. Pick one with the word divine in it, okay?
Tachyon8491
Well mix mix, you have certainly succeeded eminently in coming up to most of my expectations of you, which were rather clear to me from your first facile denunciations.

The utter nonsense you sprout forth in throwing all your toys out of the cot, succeeds in making you look like an utter fool. Believe me, people with rational minds, of which there are many visiting this site, well recognise your complete childishness and the unbridled irrationality of your envy, your conflative reasoning and inflexibly brute fundamentalism. "but I have no problem tearing any point you make apart" - that's what you're all about, isn't it... Truly a meritorious ambition.

It shines through as well, that you pride yourself on your vulgarity, mistaking that for reasoning power. The fact that your taste in language might differ, and that some little clique you invoke might entertain similar feelings, I can respect - that's where respect stops though, as your reprehensible manner deserves little less than sympathetic contempt. The inflated stuff you reference might persuade you of a righteous stance - I suggest you inspect your own style a little. As far as "my worth to humanity" is concerned - perhaps you conveniently forget that your self-proven inability to understand and interpret English is not shared by all.

The problem with fools is that they cannot recognise what fools they are. And although in your undoubted naivite you might think this applies symmetrically to us both, I have no doubt that you will solve that little paradox to your complete satisfaction. Not clear enough for you? Let's clarify it then, I do classify you as a fool, fellow, but not just that, you are the type that is not an innocuous, innocent fool, but a malevolent fool.

As for the insincere and utter tripe of your attempt at rhetoric, I suggest you spend that misapplied energy elsewhere, like in purchasing a reasonably good dictionary and a guide on syntax.

FV
Insyght
Come on people... be nice.

It looks like a child's playground; "you are stinky, no you are, no you are, no.....". Will there be no end?

So back on topic...

"Sadness of the Non-Evolutionary Viewpoint, Potentials of Conflict Resolution"

Why is "Non-Evolutionary Viewpoint" - "Sad"? - sad for WHO?



Cclink
QUOTE (Elektra51+Jun 19 2005, 12:05 AM)
Wonder why YOU care so much about tachyon caring so much, puzzled? "Evolution doesn't care" is just plain silly, its a process and not an entity. Even tho you say that it doesn't matter if the human race survives or not, maybe he doesn't share your pessimism. Instead of inane and useless remarks why don't you rather try make a useful contribution, not evolved enough for that yourself maybe?
very nice madam!short and to the "flameback"! biggrin.gif
keepdigging
QUOTE (bobart+Jun 19 2005, 01:35 AM)
I can't speak for Tachyon, but there are many who truly want to know something about life and our place in it. For those with this passion, creation stories were not enough. It isn't as easy to find personal meaning in evolution because it isn't readily supplied by priests. This sounds like a puzzle, but in a very real sense I am millions of years old, not just forty something, and my young son is even a little older than I am. That isn't a sad or pessimistic thought.
well.........at least to me......you sound like a puzzle!(dont we all?!).not to ourselves and the like minded amoung us!:lol:
Tachyon8491
I did not explicitly state why I consider the non-evolutionary viewpoint sad and considered that this would become contextually clear from the issue addressed in my post of Jun 21 2005, 01:11 AM, titled "Dear Friends" which opened with:

Many posts in this thread pose the question why it is that I am 1) So interested in evolution, 2) Wish to dissolve a quite evident antagonistic polarisation that exists between the two camps of evolutionism and creationism.

Ending this article I stated there:

As I have illustrated in several previous posts, no classical evolutionist can penetrate temporally beyond an original moment of moments and not be faced with an apparent ultimate enigma of how and where the entire cosmic ontogeny began – a salient and vital focus on a creative aspect. Neither can anyone conventionally leaning towards creationism, but who has any truly objective reasoning power remaining, the merest titbit of conceptual receptivity and investigative daring, any longer deny the absolute reality of evolutionary mechanism in all nature.

And,

Why do I so passionately wish to present this view? Because I believe that there are few things as precious as knowing where you truly come from, your true natural origin and heritage. This allows you to authentically understand your cosmic birthright, your intrinsically divine nature, the essence of your being, where it is that we may, can, and dare to strive in full realisation of our potentials, true harmlessness and a divine loving intelligence that continually quests for its intimately channelled personal birth within you.


The whole thesis analysing an extensive factual basis for a convergent perspective incorporating both an evolutionary and creative mechanism, and pragmatic conjectural extension of this supporting that view, is available in my articles and it would amount to a redundant restatement to repost that here. The conjectural aspect amounts to theoretical modelling for those who do not perceive the evidence. It's been that way since Aristarchus and Democritus conjectured on the existence of the atomos, and Newton on theories of light - and perhaps this reflects on the skepticism that vilified them. A new worldview, and this one is in many ways both new and ancient, always encounters those who cannot keep up with it, just as there are presently Ph.D's who seriously argue for the merits of the geocentric view. (See my post of 22nd June for details of this case.)

Why sad? Because firstly, understanding evolutionary mechanisms opens up an incredibly rich world - not just of ultimate sense (a sense uncommon to those who refuse looking) but one which offers perhaps the most non-dogmatic evidence of a creative mechanism. It is acutely ironic that classical creationists in steering away from any investigation of evolutionary systems miss the most golden opportunity that exists to study creation itself. Secondly, the new standard model of evolution is not sufficient in that evolutionary biologists specialise in a domain which borders on, but does not penetrate into astrophysics and exobiology. These two domains are contiguous but divided and should actually unify in order to establish a continuity, and synergise a convergence of percepts common to them both. Such common concepts exist analogously in these domains. The result of this division is that conventional biologists do not penetrate the domain of symmetry-breaking from a unified-force phase or even the phases of cosmic nucleosynthesis and moleculosynthesis in the ISM (interstellar medium) but start from levels of organicity that are more complex. Cosmic ontogeny must involve both these domains and is a synthesis of evidence and modelling in both. So far, evidence of these is "shingled together" mainly in non-academic and metaphysical works. In some daring I have gone beyond this and address the convergence issue on multiple levels, from the pragmatic-scientific, to the metaphysical to well-evidenced theories of unitary individuation which illuminate far earlier phases, to a primary phase of ontogenic quantisation that precedes the Planck Era and the Grand Unification Transition. I firmly believe that there is an abundance of evidence for my view that only evolutive creation and creative evolution exist.

Of course "creationism" in its dogmatic sense is thoroughly religionistic but underlying this is the seminal concept of a primary creative aspect that is missed by classical evolution - in this, creationists also miss an opportunity of attacking evolutionism at one of its weakest points, exactly the area I address in my book. Instead in a reluctant compromise that microevolution "may" exist, they defend the position that macroevolution, i.e. speciation and phylogenesis, cannot. That, is a fruitless task as it is exhaustively proven on a multiplicity of levels. Classical evolution does not address cosmic ontogeny - it is exactly here that all begins, whatever model you see this in, Big Bang, Inflationary phase, Modified Steady State, etc.

I consider myself thoroughly religious, and utterly believe in a divine creative agency - this is not however a belief in an anthropomorphised entity whose form much depends on the geographical area of your birth. In an exhaustive analysis I trace the origin of the religious drive in its need to model origin and purpose, and the view is certainly enlightening in the historical human implementation of theistic philosophy. The sadness lies in several aspects, the fact that the polarisation is unnecessary in a higher unified view. Also that the reincarnative aspect which all the first church fathers, St. Gregory, St. Andrew, St. Clement, St. Augustine believed in and which was actively preached and practised in early Christianity, was hijacked by Justinian and Theodora, among other means by using the Chalcedonian Decree, the Three Chapters Edict as levers, and the Fifth Council of Constantinople. Most honest believers, whose integrity of faith is not to be questioned, have never examined this. I believe the opportunity is stealthily denied them. Apart from this, the sadness lies in still well-traceable reference to reincarnation in biblical scripture, including many words of Christ, despite strong evidence of a widespread attempt at wholesale erasure of any reference to it, which was simple to implement at the time.

The sadness also lies in the fact that the absence of this convergence halts the development of a harmonic resolution in social dynamics (yes, yes, I'm sure that means nothing to the linguistically challenged - go back to school and do some learnin' before throwing your toys out of the cot in frothing indignation again) - a resolution that is far overdue, by probably some six millennia at least. The schism was not there in the earliest humans, it arrived with the gods themselves who, including the toxic conception of a god in the old testament who commands Joshua to destroy whole populations (but keep their gold because that belongs to the lord) proceed to bring more misery, division, death and destruction in inspiring humans to denounce each other's humanity, than pandemic disease. The sadness lies in a blindness of faith that is in itself incapable of, and proscribes any investigation beyond its enforced comfort zones - exactly that engendered by a Kierkegaardian "leap of faith" that forces an exclusive focus on dogma. In that exclusive focus it is missed that this cognitive technique is synthetic, an artifice, and disconnects from the very divinity of nature that surrounds all in abundance.

The sadness lies in a view perceiving that evolution does not saliently embody creation and that it needs a personified deity in the form of a well identified scriptural entity to be the origin and cause of existence. More sadness lies in that classical evolutionism in its denial of a creative agency is mechanistic and not much more advanced than a neo-newtonian clockwork model.

One observation that religion is a system of faith that does not require evidence, where in contrast, science is a system of observation that does not require faith - is a perception itself based on a very human cognitive process of seeing things fitting a continuum with two widely separated poles. The conceptually imposed polarity denies everything in between, in this case specifically human nature.
It is human to search and enquire, foundation of the scientific stance; it is human to wish perception of ultimate origin and ultimate cause, the essence of the religiophilosophical drive (and pertinently in common with the scientific); it is human to wish substantiation - in the case of religious pursuits this consists of investigation within a strictly bounded, closed and defined paradigm whereas the scientific arena of investigation is unlimited by dedication.

The idea therefore that science and theocentric fundamentalism are from the outset irreconcilable as L.C. Birch maintained, is in itself a paradigmatic perception. That perception places limits on the human spirit and does that in an often malevolent cynicism that is overcome by thousands who evolve beyond it.

Perhaps saddest of all, although well outside the scope of this writing, is the wretched stance of those who clearly set out to destroy instead of to uplift, to divide instead of to unify - it is they who, with a casual avoidance, refuse to penetrate deeply into their own most primary motivations and dare with authentic honesty to test the integrity of their aims. Yet they too, serve purpose: they are the catabolic agents of culture and progress. As viral antagonists of the greater being they assist vitally in strengthening its immune system.

FV
Insyght
Tachyon8491,

Cheers for clarifying your definitions of Sadnesses. I agree with you on the polarization. I jump on the band wagon regarding evolution and the disconnectivity between the actual creation of the universe and the development of biological life forms. I have used this, but the usual response is much like a creationist accepting microevolution - Evolution does not cover that and they jump immediately to singularities and quantum fluctuations and things the like.

Of course I would agree, it is an attack on an opposing theory right?

This really does make sense to me. Religion lets people down, they make scientific discoveries then they use these discoveries to create a tool to destroy the Religion they have become disgusted at - and what is Sad is that this is then passed on.

It is no secret that there is a veritable war taking place between the two - regardless how well disguised and civily pretensious both parties are. It's simply a fight for power. You see it manifest here all the time.

That said and agreements made Tachyon, you move into the realm of scripture and portray an image of cloak and dagger, shadows in the dark, tampering, twisting, scheaming. You know what? You are right to a large degree. You are probably not surprised. You trace origins through "church fathers". There is one problem right there. I never have bought apostolic succession and do not see place in the scripture for any human on earth to day to make a saint out of anyone. It is apostacy. John knew this, he even called him self the last restraint, knowing that apostacy would follow. How could apostasy spread when John is alive and well? Very early on in so called Christianity, the identity of God was totally abolished.

It set in quicky. You are well read on early Christianity. I have no need to continue here. So yes, correct. Very sad.

But you make some strong claims about Jesus preaching reincarnation. Please expound. Every single argument I have ever heard put towards me in this regard has been founded on inaccurate understanding of scripture, incorrect context, or deliberate twisting.

Also a point of confusion for me is why you cannot attach a personnality to God? From your posts you imply that the personnality is imposed on him by the believer, thus making God what ever you want him to be. True, people do that. But if you hold to scripture as "truth" - something you vividy detest too, then you have all the elements required to "see" God.

You state out of context arguements to dispute the loving personnality of God, with your description of the God of the Old testiment, killing and capturing Gold. Easy to do and easy for the innocent or uninformed to become prey too, along with general attacks on extreme faction groups perform the most heinous crimes which would churn the stomack of even the most hardened person, lending structural support of your concept.

One thing I will give you, is that you are trying to discover truth. You feel you have found it. Perhaps. So do I. You feel you must share it. So do I.
Guest_bobart
That is depressing. When the predator becomes overwhelming it starves. Still, some good info. I hope you don't become discouraged, having to say these things in a saloon surrounded by brawling drunks.
Guest
QUOTE
Well mix mix, you have certainly succeeded eminently in coming up to most of my expectations of you, which were rather clear to me from your first facile denunciations.

The utter nonsense you sprout forth in throwing all your toys out of the cot, succeeds in making you look like an utter fool. Believe me, people with rational minds, of which there are many visiting this site, well recognise your complete childishness and the unbridled irrationality of your envy, your conflative reasoning and inflexibly brute fundamentalism. "but I have no problem tearing any point you make apart" - that's what you're all about, isn't it... Truly a meritorious ambition.
At least I recognize hypocricy, and yes, people will judge for themselves.

You are a sheep in wolf's clothing.
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Well mix mix, you have certainly succeeded eminently in coming up to most of my expectations of you, which were rather clear to me from your first facile denunciations.

The utter nonsense you sprout forth in throwing all your toys out of the cot, succeeds in making you look like an utter fool. Believe me, people with rational minds, of which there are many visiting this site, well recognise your complete childishness and the unbridled irrationality of your envy, your conflative reasoning and inflexibly brute fundamentalism. "but I have no problem tearing any point you make apart" - that's what you're all about, isn't it... Truly a meritorious ambition.
At least I recognize hypocricy, and yes, people will judge for themselves.

You are a sheep in wolf's clothing.
As for the insincere and utter tripe of your attempt at rhetoric, I suggest you spend that misapplied energy elsewhere, like in purchasing a reasonably good dictionary and a guide on syntax.
<br>You are unable to counter my points. You have excuses, not reasons, judgements, not arguements.

QUOTE
This, of course proves nothing so much as but a reality check, a verification of my first reactions and evaluation. It is not proof, but I have no problem tearing any point you make apart, Frank. Pick one. Pick one with the word divine in it, okay?
<br>For instance
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
This, of course proves nothing so much as but a reality check, a verification of my first reactions and evaluation. It is not proof, but I have no problem tearing any point you make apart, Frank. Pick one. Pick one with the word divine in it, okay?
<br>For instanceL.C. Birch wrote in 1965 that: “No reconciliation is possible between religious fundamentalism and modern science.” I completely disagree with this absolutist view. I disagree for several reasons, and reasons that have taken on the most personally vital meaning to me - it is for this too, that I spent more than twenty years researching in all domains of the scientific and esoteric explorations of reality and spent a year writing my book The Nature of Being ©, 530 pages with 176 illustrations and 2871 index entries - a summary of my dedication to resolve this saddest of unnecessary conflicts.

Birch was right in only one sense: there are those individual minds and spirits so unilinearly entrenched that they cannot and will not see the underlying concordance and unifying synergy in this lifetime. Yet there are many others, I am convinced, who strive for this releasing consonance. This striving on their part, is not just a quest for comprehension beyond the understood limits of their present knowing, but also a dedication, the giving of their open receptivity in the knowledge that anything less than this is a self-disabling closedness that can only mean static subscription, and never enable and catalyse the growth offered by personal discovery.

Birch was right only in his implicit identification of that group of minds and spirits so protective of and addicted to the safety of their comfort zones that it is far too conflictive, frightening or even traumatic to dare stepping outside them for even a moment.
<br>So, dimestore psychology aside, Where do you see Birch implying this ego-istically centered defense machanism, the one where people are afraid to step out of their comfort zones.


therefore,
QUOTE
This striving on their part, is not just a quest for comprehension beyond the understood limits of their present knowing, but also a dedication, the giving of their open receptivity in the knowledge that anything less than this is a self-disabling closedness that can only mean static subscription, and never enable and catalyse the growth offered by personal discovery.
You have already revealed your predjudice and fail to show any understanding of or consideration for anything other than closed mindedness, yet clearly, you are not in a position to decree that. You only have condescending attitude and appraoch that betrays's your defensiveness.

Where do you support your hypothesis that all viewpoint contrary to yours is but simpleness of mind, of cowardice of heart?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
This striving on their part, is not just a quest for comprehension beyond the understood limits of their present knowing, but also a dedication, the giving of their open receptivity in the knowledge that anything less than this is a self-disabling closedness that can only mean static subscription, and never enable and catalyse the growth offered by personal discovery.
You have already revealed your predjudice and fail to show any understanding of or consideration for anything other than closed mindedness, yet clearly, you are not in a position to decree that. You only have condescending attitude and appraoch that betrays's your defensiveness.

Where do you support your hypothesis that all viewpoint contrary to yours is but simpleness of mind, of cowardice of heart?

Surely a pity that in these circumstances most cannot apply "an opponent is a friend you have never met," and mutually keep such a dedication consistently intact.
I take it then that I am your friend, in your opinion?

QUOTE
The polar options then remaining are either parting in mutual disrespect and enmity, or, the most civilised option, mutually respectful agreement to disagree. The latter is difficult in many circumstances, as perceived cognitive intransigence, impressions of obtuseness and other negatively perceived aspects of cognitive and attitudinal ability, do not lead to respect but instead to a depreciative picture of the "opponent."
Yes, a self fulfilling prophesy here, Frank. You start with belittling of other viewpoints as shortsighted and trite, then expect to be treated with respect, or I suspect, awe.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The polar options then remaining are either parting in mutual disrespect and enmity, or, the most civilised option, mutually respectful agreement to disagree. The latter is difficult in many circumstances, as perceived cognitive intransigence, impressions of obtuseness and other negatively perceived aspects of cognitive and attitudinal ability, do not lead to respect but instead to a depreciative picture of the "opponent."
Yes, a self fulfilling prophesy here, Frank. You start with belittling of other viewpoints as shortsighted and trite, then expect to be treated with respect, or I suspect, awe.

It is very likely that in the perceived need to defend the comfortable paradigm, a positive feedback comes into operation which makes the conflictive stance more conflictive and progressively retards any potential of resolutive insight.
On thwe contrary, i have many insights when I am the most riled, and I realize other viewpoints after the catharthis of vehement denial.

QUOTE
I disagree for several reasons, and reasons that have taken on the most personally vital meaning to me - it is for this too, that I spent more than twenty years researching in all domains of the scientific and esoteric explorations of reality and spent a year writing my book
Behold, the actual thesis of your works, a self gratification and exorcise in showing how wonderfully educated you are and therefore not only cannot be wrong, but are more qualified to pass judgement on infior opinion.

I maintain, that you are guilty of the most transparent projection of fearful self exposure, for your exceedingly judgemental opinion, which you never hesitate to proclaim in every situation, and your use of obtuse and painfully egaggerated locution serve as but an attempt to hide your sensitive, inferiority complex.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I disagree for several reasons, and reasons that have taken on the most personally vital meaning to me - it is for this too, that I spent more than twenty years researching in all domains of the scientific and esoteric explorations of reality and spent a year writing my book
Behold, the actual thesis of your works, a self gratification and exorcise in showing how wonderfully educated you are and therefore not only cannot be wrong, but are more qualified to pass judgement on infior opinion.

I maintain, that you are guilty of the most transparent projection of fearful self exposure, for your exceedingly judgemental opinion, which you never hesitate to proclaim in every situation, and your use of obtuse and painfully egaggerated locution serve as but an attempt to hide your sensitive, inferiority complex.

These unifying aspects, interpretations in themselves, do exist - they are there to see for anyone who has the daring to venture beyond their programmed paradigms.

<br>I guess I dare not venture, for I am painfully unaware of my programmed paradigms. Perhaps if you could explain what these are, I could shed the inhibitions of my programed paradigms and become painfully aware of them

Please explain what a paradigm means in this usage, and how you propose it to be programmed, and then how this programming inhibits the viewing of your unquestionably grandiose and superior panorama.

And when I say "what a paradigm means in this usage", I do not mean the painfully inhibited fear of expanding awareness past ones comfort zone, I mean how do you know this?

So, enough name calling, let's get at it, sunshine, lets see where it goes. Who knows, we may become friends yet!



Guest
PS. Bring elf with you, he thinks you are brilliant. (From what I can tell, he is brilliant when it comes to physics, but I am unable to properly evaluate that)
mikmik
laugh.gif Sigh, you should have no problems with an airhead that forgets to sign in now, should you?

Just a reminder
QUOTE
"but I have no problem tearing any point you make apart" - that's what you're all about, isn't it... Truly a meritorious ambition
<br>LMAO!!! But mommy, the emperor isn't wearing any clothes! He sure does talk a lot, though, and he doesn't make any sense, either!
Tachyon8491
Hello Bobart - well put... admittedly it's a challenge. Fortunately, in contrast with some malevolent clowns who are bent on destruction in quenching their excess testosterone (and according to one's admission, probably some nasty long-term drug metabolites in their cerebral chemistry too), there are many who have the capacity for a bigger perspective and the psychospiritual maturity to judge for themselves without having to take recourse to dogma. Certainly they are in the minority, but then Gauss surely knew that already in 1794...

FV
mikmik
Ya, sure, but my points remain unchallenged, and your pathetic dodging is wearing thin.

QUOTE
without having to take recourse to dogma
Enlighten me, oh magnifigant one, which dogma do you refer?

My, you sure know a lot of words, mister, why don't you act the way you write? This is, by your own admission, the inevitable outcome of two closed minded nimrods who cannot bear to step from behing their own egotistical denial.

Like you said, it takes two, and the more you call me names, and the more you ignore my questions and arguements, the moe hypocritical you look.

That is what I think, and others will think for themselves. Or you could just tell them what to think.
Tachyon8491
Hello Insyght,

My commendations on your objectivity.

You are quite correct in your estimation of a "veritable war going on" - in scanning the web for the endless reams of conflictive argument in that arena you find all types of minds - the naive and innocent, the entrenched and dogmatically biased on either side. Pitifully, mostly the calibre of reasoning is infantile and pathetically simplistic. More fascinating are those debates between academics from both camps who rarely agree to disagree.

The "cloak and dagger" scenario you refer too is every bit as historically real as you could imagine - not for nothing was the Council of Ephesus in 431 referred to as the "Robber's Council," one of the most violence-ridden church councils ever held. The mutual maltreatment and brutality during this council is remarkable: “A letter was taken to Constantinople at last in a hollow cane, by a messenger disguised as a beggar, in which the miserable condition of the bishops at Ephesus was described, scarce a day passing without a funeral...”

As for making saints "out of anyone," the apostles and saints growing to the 20 000 mentioned in the 61st volume of the colossal Acta Sanctorum of the Bollandists, each one prayable to, makes this religionism even more polytheistic than ancient Egypt.

With regard to unerased references to reincarnation in canonical biblical scripture, I treat at least six of these in my book. There are more in apocryphal works. Interesting that the division between those works regarded as apocryphal and those canonical must, by believers at least, be acutely judged as not a human decision. The fact that it was, of course, must then be rationalised (by those who actually encounter the thought) as divine guidance via the mediumship of human minds. Dr. W Graham Scroggie (1877 – 1958,) a man who himself was turned out of his first two churches for his opposition to modernism and worldliness, pastor of the famous Spurgeon Metropolitan Tabernacle, London, asserts: “..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men....”

Attaching "a personality" to a god, in the first instance tacitly assumes a christian god, when this question is asked by a christian, other gods when asked by others. The point here is that irreducibly, there is only one single divine agency - any possible other view is intrinsically already divisive, diffractive, and must be modulated by formative dogma that "adds definition." To define the divine must, in my opinion be one of the greatest human arrogances one can encounter - the abstaining from such definition, is not definition - let those who would like to conflate that into a self-falsifying syllogism consider that carefully. Take for example the intrinsic genderism in the "He" reference ubiquitously used - there is no possibility of separating that from implied male characteristics - firstly spiritually, personality-wise, then even if one wanted to extend this absurdly, to physiology, anatomy and sexual dimorphism. The concept of maleness in gods is anthropocentrically definitive. Earlier pantheons, the Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, Egyptian, even Scandinavian, had as many female goddesses. In the historical theocentric evolution towards monotheism, the attribute of maleness was mostly lent to warlike, autocratic, even vengeful gods. The biblical god does not deviate from that humanly processed definition. Maleness is inseparable from its specific gender implication, and the spectrum of concomitant sexual attributes. Rhetorically, why do we need to be genderistic? In some theologies, the name of the divine is not spelled out, not explicitly pronounced, implicitly hidden - that in itself, in my opinion, communicates an inclination not to limit by definition, to make less attributed. That only de-limits the sense of the divine, not limits it.

From a different tack, any attribution, the human imposition of "personality" is definitive, and in that, limits. In an infinite potentiality, the divine is not bounded, restricted, limited, or answers to human definition - except solely in the specifications of dogma, and dogmatic record. In an infinite potentiality, the divine is inattributable - and speaking purely for myself, I would find that far more mystical, unlimited and illimitable in spiritual meaning. The quite human tendency is that gods need to be anthropomorphised, limited in potential by being patriarchal figures, quite capable of vengeance, jealousy, egocentric proclamations (what would be more logical for a "sole god"). As I pointed out in earlier posts, in the theocentric drive, developing through animatism, animism, personification, deification, pantheism, polytheism and then monotheism, the creative agent was quite incidentally and unintentionally removed from the created - which was left behind as mere "product". Nothing could be further from the truth, the divine is indivisible from all that exists, inclusively.

On the contrary, there is nothing, which is not divine - the perception that cannot see dissonance as a case of consonance in a continuum, is a phase of interpretative inclination, a phase that can be transcended. Of course, some antediluvian cerebrums would define that to be arcanely new agish, it is however also quite pure and logically derivable philosophy.

The "loving personality of god" is vitally necessary for many - it is also the product of human tendency to simplistically divide indivisible continua into two disparate poles, black / white, good / evil, positive / negative, the divine and the satanic. There are those who understand that such absolutism is naively simplistic, that good and evil are highly contextual. Even St. Augustine understood this when he said that “In the context of eternity everything can be seen as good.” No doubt some minds will then "disprove" such a quite heinous interpretation by asking whether serial murder is also (?) good and whether Augustine has not been distortively quoted out of context...

Peace and Joy,

FV
mikmik
QUOTE
On the contrary, there is nothing, which is not divine - the perception that cannot see dissonance as a case of consonance in a continuum, is a phase of interpretative inclination, a phase that can be transcended. Of course, some antediluvian cerebrums would define that to be arcanely new agish, it is however also quite pure and logically derivable philosophy.

The "loving personality of god" is vitally necessary for many - it is also the product of human tendency to simplistically divide indivisible continua into two disparate poles, black / white, good / evil, positive / negative, the divine and the satanic. There are those who understand that such absolutism is naively simplistic, that good and evil are highly contextual.
<br>wait a minute, first you say there is nothing that is not devine, and this is a quite pure and logially deriveable philosophy - hold that thought...

Yet the very next paragraph, you say that a loving god, which sounds almost exactly devine to me, is "it is also the product of human tendency to simplistically divide indivisible continua into two disparate poles, black / white, good / evil, positive / negative, the divine and the satanic. There are those who understand that such absolutism is naively simplistic, that good and evil are highly contextual."

You judge that viewpoint as "simplistic" (simplistically divide), you use that term twice(!) (naively simplistic).

So, NUMBER ONE, and correct me if I am misunderstanding here, you say that the perception of, nay, you proclaim that there is nothing which is not devine, but immediately you then attribute such thinking as a sign of human failing, - a naivly simplistic one that arises from a tendency to divide into disparate poles?

Why is it different, not to mention "SIMPLISTIC" when "the loving personality of god" is attributed to others?


You say "the perception that cannot see dissonance as a case of consonance in a continuum, is a phase of interpretative inclination, a phase that can be transcended.", then you say "
simplistically divide indivisible continua into two disparate poles, black / white, good / evil, positive / negative, the divine and the satanic."

Not only that,but NUMBER TWO, you do not say how you reach your conclusion - "some antediluvian cerebrums would define that to be arcanely new agish, it is however also quite pure and logically derivable philosophy"

How so?????? Derive it for me, please!!!! Prove that it is logical.

You do not back up a single assertion! Not one!!

Answer that for the record. Tell us how you can completely contradict what divine means in the space of one paragraph, and you manage to insult "average humans" how many times?

1 the perception that cannot see dissonance...a phase that can be transcended
Implying what? This?
2antediluvian cerebrums would define that to be arcanely new agish (theres that simplistic bit again - arcane, in any event) HUH!!! You mean like Hindi, and tao, and Buddha!!!??? That arcanely new agish????
3It is alright for you to see everything as devine,but: loving personality of god" , which sounds devine to me, you say now is is vitally necessary for many - it is also the product of human tendency to simplistically divide - vitally necessary for many, not you though
4 NOT FRANK -->There are those who understand that such absolutism is naively simplistic
5The arcanely new agish -->No doubt some minds will then "disprove" such a quite heinous interpretation by asking whether serial murder is also (?) good
And your answer? so what if they do, WHAT IS YOUR POINT?? Of course they will, you are setting up a straw man here
and whether Augustine has not been distortively quoted out of context
HUH??? So what????

You have shown nothing, I do not see where you have made a single point, Frank. It is just a vehicle for you to stroke yourself, and insult the 'peons' LOL

You want to come and say "The sadness of the Non Evolutionary Viewpoint".

I say - "The sadness of the non rational viewpoint"

But, and I hope you can understand this, Frank, it is only sad when you look for sadness, and things to judge.

There is no good and bad, it is a value judgement. But, I wonder about people who go so far out of their way to convince themselves they are so smugly superior, that they see almost nothing but "antediluvian cerebrums",
"human tendency to simplistically divide", "such absolutism is naively simplistic", "Even St. Augustine"
Even St Augustine.
Even St. Augustine
Even St. Augustine.....understood this when he said that “In the context of eternity everything can be seen as good.”

My, you are a great one to so benevolently bestow a "Even St Augustine isn't that stupid"

BTW, there is a much more obvious 'context', and that is "Just is".



human tendency to simplistically divide. No Frank, that is your frailty.

I am not even half done with all that is wrong with your last two paragraphs, Frank, not even close.

And you will not address any of it. You are afraid of me.
Tachyon8491
The Great Demystification of De-Contextualisation

In discourse on disproof -
said Dizzymix enthused
- it must be realised
that integrity is to be despised
and a central issue here perused
is the proper element of spoof

To spoof successfully
we must attack relentlessly
distort, malign, defame, asperse
and undermine persistently
the basis of the whole design
warp, debase, then spoil and garble
and of course especially
elevate own ego magnificently

Ah, how wonderful to scurrilously poke
empathies of the base clique evoke
by quoting just how bad you are
ex-drugger and reformed debauch
then stressing how you are reborn
their hearties passionately mourn, and
for you they'll carry any torch!

Thus we proceed with surgery
of the meanest subtlety
to dismantle silly edifice
and chuck it in the precipice
of New Agish pseudo-philosophy
you simply take the contextual
and de-contextualise it furtively
then quoting something unrelated
unabatedly equate it
as if it were the same no doubt
I mean, when you're on a mission
the clique will just applaude derision
and celebrate your dogged hounding
abounding with such lovely toxin
Ah, how sweet is a Golgotha!

So Dizzymix proceeds in splendour
the pendulum scything ever closer
tick-tick, flick-stick
Sheesh, what a kick to bend
to flummox, flame and rend
the temple's sacred cloth
and in disinformation's broth
to broil and spoil a thesis

In our righteous inquisition
we need to theatrically prate
because if there's anything
we truly hate
it's a sense of excellence
so let's just also casually
quote that one out of context

---------------

As an aside, I do believe that an enemy is a friend you have not met. Does that mean that an enemy is your friend, as according to Dizzymix's sarcastically rhetorical question? Far from it - the operative verb that monsieur cunningly avoids in the interest of his unsubtle artifice, is "meet" and the extended meanings of that. The potential remains, whether one would want to actively utilise it, depends on whether you would want to - in the case of a toxic clown you wish them a bit more experience in their own circus first..

FV
WaterBreath
I'm going to see if I can distill Tachyon's recent lenthy treatises into the shortest possible text that gets across the essence of what he's saying. It will omit a great deal of the detail and "eloquence" of his arguments. But in my opinion, they are merely serving to obfuscate his points rather than to express or support them.

Here goes...

Logic is the only reliable path to knowledge. Religion relies at heart on assumption, and on individual interpretation of the workings of the universe. The transforming effects of the human psychology cannot be removed from the transcription of religion. Nor can they be circumvented in the interpratation of such transcription. So religion is inherently and unavoidably flawed due to the inherent human element. Since it is flawed, it should never be relied upon.

And my response...

Even the most rigorous logic is worthless as a process unless it has accurate and true propositions to operate on. Religion is philosophy, and all philosophy, by definition, involves assumption and personal interpretation in the "finding" of foundational propositions. The logic that operates on these propositions can be flawless, but if the propositions themselves are flawed, so will the result be.

My challenge to you is this: Enumerate your founding propositions, the ones from which you logically derive all your arguments, and prove their unequivocal truth. If I can make no argument with your proofs, and I can find no unstated, undefended, assumed propositions which your arguments require, then I will admit that your philosophy is the only proper and logical one.
Insyght
Tachyon8491,

Cheers for the reply, you raise some valid points. Let me address some from my side

QUOTE
With regard to unerased references to reincarnation in canonical biblical scripture, I treat at least six of these in my book. There are more in apocryphal works. Interesting that the division between those works regarded as apocryphal and those canonical must, by believers at least, be acutely judged as not a human decision. The fact that it was, of course, must then be rationalised (by those who actually encounter the thought) as divine guidance via the mediumship of human minds.
<br>Agreed. This is always an area of conflict. Many translators struggled with this, thus some include such books in their bibles, whilst others don't.

First we must accept some people will always attack scripture. Take for example, the third century philosipher, Porthyry. It is said he had a hatred of Christianity and embarked on a mission of 15 books to destroy it. One book focused souly on the book of Daniel - trying to discredit it's authenticity. A lot hangs on the book of Daniel - including the unreaveling of some prophecy's in revelation and the proposed appearance and cut-off of the Christ.

Though you argue that the apocrytha should have been included in the Bible canon, who is to say that these books are not from a similar source, who's intention is to mislead? Unless the "hand of God" were to decend and say "NO! this book is false", it would make for the neccessity for it to be examined to determine it's intent.

If these books contradict earlier accepted books, then it is clear that these books are not deamed canonical.

I have not studied them in depth, but I have researched some contradictions which were enough to prove to me their deligation to apocrytha.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
With regard to unerased references to reincarnation in canonical biblical scripture, I treat at least six of these in my book. There are more in apocryphal works. Interesting that the division between those works regarded as apocryphal and those canonical must, by believers at least, be acutely judged as not a human decision. The fact that it was, of course, must then be rationalised (by those who actually encounter the thought) as divine guidance via the mediumship of human minds.
<br>Agreed. This is always an area of conflict. Many translators struggled with this, thus some include such books in their bibles, whilst others don't.

First we must accept some people will always attack scripture. Take for example, the third century philosipher, Porthyry. It is said he had a hatred of Christianity and embarked on a mission of 15 books to destroy it. One book focused souly on the book of Daniel - trying to discredit it's authenticity. A lot hangs on the book of Daniel - including the unreaveling of some prophecy's in revelation and the proposed appearance and cut-off of the Christ.

Though you argue that the apocrytha should have been included in the Bible canon, who is to say that these books are not from a similar source, who's intention is to mislead? Unless the "hand of God" were to decend and say "NO! this book is false", it would make for the neccessity for it to be examined to determine it's intent.

If these books contradict earlier accepted books, then it is clear that these books are not deamed canonical.

I have not studied them in depth, but I have researched some contradictions which were enough to prove to me their deligation to apocrytha.

The "loving personality of god" is vitally necessary for many - it is also the product of human tendency to simplistically divide indivisible continua into two disparate poles, black / white, good / evil, positive / negative, the divine and the satanic. There are those who understand that such absolutism is naively simplistic, that good and evil are highly contextual.
<br>Again, a valid and interesting point. Humans catagorize and if they can fascilitate their catagorization from pole to pole, then all the better. Yet it is important to consider that humans are social creatures. Our day to day activites are marked with interaction and socialization and I would bet that you do not say that everyone you meet is either "good" or "evil", "extremely nice" or "extremely nasty". I know personnally that a gradent takes place.

Now is the "perfect, holy God" the "ultimate example or unobtainable benchmark of his Love", merly a human creation? If God exists and he provided the Bible, then why can't we take him at his word?

You can, unless you doubt divine inspiration, the concept that a man can be lead by "spirit" to pen something. This has been used a lot incorrectly and laughed upon as stupid, but such a being would have the ability to induce a man to write and induce him to write about certain things and open up memories to write, whist maintaining the human aspect. I put it this way: how on earth could we relate to the Bible if it were written purely by Angels? They are only observers of Sin, they are only observers of a broken heart, hatred, etc. I ask you, why is a person with Sympathy, much more effective than a person with Empathy? Principally it makes sense to use humans to portray their efforts in seeking, finding and following God.

QUOTE
Take for example the intrinsic genderism in the "He" reference ubiquitously used - there is no possibility of separating that from implied male characteristics - firstly spiritually, personality-wise, then even if one wanted to extend this absurdly, to physiology, anatomy and sexual dimorphism. The concept of maleness in gods is anthropocentrically definitive.
<br>In your opinion, who should take the lead in defending a family from outside attack, what ever the form? Most people will agree on the He, the Male. Why?

This merits serious though, because everything a man can be a woman can be also, but a lot of the time are not. Held down by society? perhaps, perhaps not.

So why is God a HE? Put it in context from the above? He is the leader, the King, the ruler, the big chief, how ever to put it.

He has no gender of course, but again he is allowing us to connect with his role, the stand he takes, his position in the universal family. He will stand up.

We do it to. Some people call their cars "she". Why? it's like their lover, their other half - an extramarital partner perhaps (LOL). Why? there is no purpose, other than to demonstrate the mans LOVE or attachment to it. I see God as describing himself as a male gender as nothing more than this.

Thats far to long, prefer short posts my self, so I'm off here. Catch up later.
Tachyon8491
Ah yes, the final empty gambit. If all else fails, accuse them of being afraid of you!

No senor Dizzymix, afraid of you I certainly am not - I just regard you as a complete waste of breath, and rather enjoy your own so most excellent value judgements which are posited in lieu of dialectical logic - I'm sure you manage to convince a lot of those "peons" you so casually insult (by invoking that as my thought, of course.)

Your allegation that "your points" are not countered, rests on the premise that they are indeed "points" - in the subtly abusive miscontextualisation you apply, the misreferent comparisons, the deliberate equation of the literal and the figurative, the contrast of style with what you consider style (which is not a value judgement of course, but strict logic), misconstruence of different levels of quite legitimate interpretation and equating that to alleged disproof, the pointing at resolvable paradox as risible fatuousness, plus deliberate conflations and attributing the resulting parody of logic to me - sure, they're points alright. If you had approached whatever issues you so urgently have, with some control, (and some culture - go on, there's a golden opportunity for you to conflate that) you might have had a different response. However, I truly don't care treading where I have to wipe my sole afterwards, which is in those "brilliant" "points" of yours. I wish you two words, and they are not "bon voyage."

Tell you what: why don't you just consider yourself the outright victor in a truly just cause, having really utterly, and without any opposition whatsoever, unquestionably, vanquished the clotheless and hypocritical emperor and go and have yourself a real fling in celebration?

To defend a thesis, or any thesis that is, against someone who is specifically out to destroy, is not just a wasteful and protracted steering of time and energy, it is a useless confrontation with deliberate distortion. I have shown myself to be quite willing to debate and argue on a cultured and controlled basis, and to share and exchange ideas and information with those who do approach me in a cultured manner. However not so with those whose advent consists of deliberately malignant distortion. Oh gosh, I must be so sensitive huh, after all, what is culture - take a good look - the Taleban believed in culture to such a degree that they almost managed to kick their society right back to the Stone Age.

Such as Monsieur Waterbreath - I have never claimed that logic is the only path to knowledge and in fact my whole stance is far in excess of that truly nonsensical proposition and contradicts this - logic has its domain of application but is limited to that. Instead I utterly believe in the power and guidance of intuition - and that is as far as that goes. Reason: intuition, I believe is a deep internal channel to the divine but its conclusions also depend on phases of a psychospiritual maturity that by definition of the term "maturity"cannot be the same for everyone. This of course does not mean (before that's conflated too) that the less insightful are damned and inferior - all and everything deserves love, nurture and respect. There are insights far beyond mine, I regularly encounter them and humbly learn from them with joy and gratitude - I have not come across many of those in this thread though - specifically, not from you. There is however modelling, and, modelling - finally that is a synthesis of intuitive guidance and logical derivation in approximation of a more ultimate reality. Logic, intuition, paradigmatic conformance and passive subscription to it, and escape beyond it - there are countless permutations of degrees of that turned into inclinations of interpretation. I have mine, you have yours and I have a right to promulgate mine without graffiti, as also I do not set out to deliberately deface yours.

You deliberately synthesised false process, motive and thoughts and then attribute them to me. Your whole counter therefore is seen (again) for what it's worth, Watery, it's false, unfounded, and symptomised mainly by your inclination, which of course, (highly objective as this has to be) is not just rhetorical, but based on a malevolent misinterpretation founded on deliberate mis-quotation, putting self-synthesised thoughts and words into other's minds and mouths - that technique was well known to the KGB, the SS, and the inquisition, they used it on Bruno and Galileo too, I am not surprised it comes easily to you.

FV
Tachyon8491
Thank you Insyght, for an interesting analysis.

Just very shortly as I must leave on an engagement and will be back only vastly later, I never did suggest that allegedly apocryphal works should be included in the canon, I merely stressed that they also, apart from canonical scripture, contain reference to a reincarnative mechanism. I use the term "allegedly" as it is most historically clear that the division into these categorisations is a thoroughly human process. Of course, one then has to believe that such division is by divine guidance via human mediation - question: should we then tacitly agree, per autoritatem, with those who divided, or, on a statistical basis, with a majority (who, would you not agree, are mostly conspicuously silent and did not partake in the process), or, with those sacerdotal entities in ecclesiastical authority? What about those who wrote these works, were they not divinely guided, especially when you study their clearly communicating honesty, often their elegance and depthful beauty, and apparent authenticity of stance and report - or are those marks more in the character of satanic inspiration?

Ah, the theistic gender issue - well, yes, if you say that it's much like people refer to their cars (LOL) the folk psychology of that is of course more than acceptable. However, I do not believe this issue to be quite as innocuous as that... I totally agree with you that the divine is not marked by gender whatsoever, that again would be human attribution; if anything it embodies both female and male principle in beautiful balance, Yin and Yang, inward and outward, the centripetal and centrifugal. The point is, that the genderistic attribute is encoded foundationally in its originating scripture, and therefore does not tell the truth by a most conspicuous omission, would you not agree? It's interesting to conjecture wether future canonical editing, as in the precedent of so incredibly much done already (take the Codex Ephraimicus, or von Tischendorff's 21000 corrections to 110000 lines, and far more) would correct this and not insist on referring to a "He."

Theistic "He-ness" in its devolvement upon a very male-genderistic society, and sometimes machomaniacal society, such as the Taleban and Islamic societal groupings with their resultant Karo-Kari courts and Sharia law, has doubtlessly promoted the heinous suppression of womanhood, and terribly often its casual destruction. The change, to my mind, would promote a healing.

Peace and Joy,
FV
Insyght
Hey Tachyon,

QUOTE
I do not set out to deliberately deface yours.
<br>In all fairness, you have created a number of threads which directly attack the "Christian belief", such as "The flood did not happen". Have I made an incorrect assumption here? smile.gif

The conflict between yourself and WaterBreath is interesting to watch. I have been reading betweent he lines here (lots of them : LOL) and this is what I get: You are trying to teach people that we are bound in paradigmatic conformance to a pre-existing religion and that we must accept the rules of doctrine of our belief with all humility and mildness. Now, you state that the Bible is from the origin of Man, past through minds of men. You state that these man have a history of unquestionable actions. So logically, putting two a two together, it sums up as : Religion that most the world follows is a creation of Man, designed to enslave man, for reasons of power, greed, whatever.

WaterBreath, on the other hand, believes that the Bible is God's word and therefore seeks to follow it and defend it. He recognizes that many so-called Christians exist who are not what they seam but tries to conform himself to what God asks.

You say he is enslaved and therefore foolish for believing such nonsense. He says you are blinded to the truth and asks you to look at your own theory and see what basis it stands on - is it not merely the same thing: Thoughts of man (yourself), written down, without solid backing?

Have I read incorrectly?

Anyways back to your questions-

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I do not set out to deliberately deface yours.
<br>In all fairness, you have created a number of threads which directly attack the "Christian belief", such as "The flood did not happen". Have I made an incorrect assumption here? smile.gif

The conflict between yourself and WaterBreath is interesting to watch. I have been reading betweent he lines here (lots of them : LOL) and this is what I get: You are trying to teach people that we are bound in paradigmatic conformance to a pre-existing religion and that we must accept the rules of doctrine of our belief with all humility and mildness. Now, you state that the Bible is from the origin of Man, past through minds of men. You state that these man have a history of unquestionable actions. So logically, putting two a two together, it sums up as : Religion that most the world follows is a creation of Man, designed to enslave man, for reasons of power, greed, whatever.

WaterBreath, on the other hand, believes that the Bible is God's word and therefore seeks to follow it and defend it. He recognizes that many so-called Christians exist who are not what they seam but tries to conform himself to what God asks.

You say he is enslaved and therefore foolish for believing such nonsense. He says you are blinded to the truth and asks you to look at your own theory and see what basis it stands on - is it not merely the same thing: Thoughts of man (yourself), written down, without solid backing?

Have I read incorrectly?

Anyways back to your questions-

question: should we then tacitly agree, per autoritatem, with those who divided, or, on a statistical basis, with a majority (who, would you not agree, are mostly conspicuously silent and did not partake in the process), or, with those sacerdotal entities in ecclesiastical authority? What about those who wrote these works, were they not divinely guided, especially when you study their clearly communicating honesty, often their elegance and depthful beauty, and apparent authenticity of stance and report - or are those marks more in the character of satanic inspiration?
<br>This one is excellent and thanks for taking me in that direction. In effect you question perhaps if the whole Canon should be revisited, have a vote take in simple terms. How should that be decided?

My belief on this is simple: The few should choose. God will protect his word. That has to be a given. If God cannot defend the content of his word, then it's worthless. You no doubt therefore recognize that I am implying that God plays a part in the selection, and not only the creation of the texts in question? Whats the point of inspiring a text, just to have it's inclusion in the Canan left up to chance? God has always shown him self to be organized. He worths thru few to reach many. This is logical and follows the way you would expect a supreme being to operate.

This now shines a different light on apocalytic texts. If they are really inspired, why has not God acted to get this to the majority, to give all people an equal chance? Scripture warns simply that men would rise, speaking twisted things. Such texts, through evidence of denial of canonocity, would appear to be works purely of man, lacking inspiriation.

QUOTE
The point is, that the genderistic attribute is encoded foundationally in its originating scripture, and therefore does not tell the truth by a most conspicuous omission, would you not agree?
<br>Not completely. Scripture gives support that God refers to him self in a masculin sense. He refers to Jesus as the bride groom and talks of a spiritual organization as his bride. Certainly that designation, via illustration of Jesus himself shows how he wants to be viewed - a man, a king, not as female, as queen.
WaterBreath
QUOTE
Your whole counter therefore is seen (again) for what it's worth, Watery, it's false, unfounded, and symptomised mainly by your inclination
I'm not sure why you say "again". That was my first post in this thread. Perhaps you are referring to another altercation we've had?

As far as my inclination, it was to pick apart what I saw as a faulty argument. If I've misconstrued your argument, then I apologize. My distortion was not "deliberately malignant". It was due to an interpretational error. Reading your posts is like reading another language. I admit freely that it is very difficult for me to distil the essence of your arguments, due to the complexity of your phraseology. Spare us the whirlwind of flowery language in favor of clear, concise, and cutting argument, and you might win over a few minds with less effort and backlash.

Furthermore, I see no reason for insulting me right off the bat. I, unlike others in this thread whom you have rightly summarily dismissed, have made no personal attacks. Unless you took my "distortion" personally? I suppose I can understand that, but as I said above, it was not intentional, not malignant.

Of what I have been able to distil from your posts, I see what appear to be conflicting viewpoints. Correct me if I've misconstrued something. You said in this recent post that you believe intuition is an important channel "to the divine", yet you continually express the human psychology's unavoidable involvement in philosophical development, and the lack of reliability of the human psychology. These seem contradictory to me. I can understand an aversion to self-affirming "groupthink" philosophies, which often amount to a bunch of people sitting around and patting each other on the back. I assume you would place the organized religions into this category, and I would agree with that. But you still seem to me to be simultaneously praise and question the merits of human intuition even on an individual level.

Perhaps the reason for my "distortion" was that I did not see any evidence, in your past posts, of your faith in human intuition in previous posts. I can tell you right now that I disagree with your apparent assumption that no religion, as it stands, is the result of a "mature" intuition. I would concede that many are, but your generalizations are a bit too sweeping for my taste. My post was (unabashedly) colored by my opinion on that, as your posts are by your opinion.

I would greatly appreciate a clarification, if you haven't already written me off.

I had more to say in defense of my own viewpoints and in response to your personal insults, but Insyght just posted a response much more concise than mine which I will endorse as "speaking for me" on the matter. (Thanks Insyght!)

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Your whole counter therefore is seen (again) for what it's worth, Watery, it's false, unfounded, and symptomised mainly by your inclination
I'm not sure why you say "again". That was my first post in this thread. Perhaps you are referring to another altercation we've had?

As far as my inclination, it was to pick apart what I saw as a faulty argument. If I've misconstrued your argument, then I apologize. My distortion was not "deliberately malignant". It was due to an interpretational error. Reading your posts is like reading another language. I admit freely that it is very difficult for me to distil the essence of your arguments, due to the complexity of your phraseology. Spare us the whirlwind of flowery language in favor of clear, concise, and cutting argument, and you might win over a few minds with less effort and backlash.

Furthermore, I see no reason for insulting me right off the bat. I, unlike others in this thread whom you have rightly summarily dismissed, have made no personal attacks. Unless you took my "distortion" personally? I suppose I can understand that, but as I said above, it was not intentional, not malignant.

Of what I have been able to distil from your posts, I see what appear to be conflicting viewpoints. Correct me if I've misconstrued something. You said in this recent post that you believe intuition is an important channel "to the divine", yet you continually express the human psychology's unavoidable involvement in philosophical development, and the lack of reliability of the human psychology. These seem contradictory to me. I can understand an aversion to self-affirming "groupthink" philosophies, which often amount to a bunch of people sitting around and patting each other on the back. I assume you would place the organized religions into this category, and I would agree with that. But you still seem to me to be simultaneously praise and question the merits of human intuition even on an individual level.

Perhaps the reason for my "distortion" was that I did not see any evidence, in your past posts, of your faith in human intuition in previous posts. I can tell you right now that I disagree with your apparent assumption that no religion, as it stands, is the result of a "mature" intuition. I would concede that many are, but your generalizations are a bit too sweeping for my taste. My post was (unabashedly) colored by my opinion on that, as your posts are by your opinion.

I would greatly appreciate a clarification, if you haven't already written me off.

I had more to say in defense of my own viewpoints and in response to your personal insults, but Insyght just posted a response much more concise than mine which I will endorse as "speaking for me" on the matter. (Thanks Insyght!)

I have a right to promulgate mine without graffiti
I agree you have a right to evangelize, but not without graffiti. While we may not like the fact that others have the ability to post malignant, insulting, or crude remarks (which I still say mine were not, and I will defend the character of those who have done so), we do not have the "right" to be free of them. While courtesy dictates it is better to keep silent than to sling insults, it is the admins, by their action or inaction, who decide what type of things they have a right to post.
Tachyon8491
I did not accuse, not suspect you of defacing anything Insight, as you might gather from my quite respectful tone to you. I hope you don't misconstrue that and let us remain mutually respectful, agreed?

Waterbreath: you certainly did exactly what I stated - and perceiving this as the same calibre of malicious distortion as I've had to get used to, certainly reacted with a sense of being quite unfairly attackec on a totally synthetic and unfounded basis. If indeed this was due yo your misunderstanding - then of course, no hard feelings on my part, and let's put it behind us as I am more than willing to do, OK?

LOL, the "flowery language" I am afraid most will have to put up with - in fact the syntax in its often multiple reciprocally referent and qualifying clauses is constructed on a formal logic basis deliberately, and those used to deep semiosis may agree.. I will atttempt though, to keep to a minimal complexity.

As far as my alleged proposition that "religion is based on mature intuition" - these are of course your words and not mine - however let me comment on this: I do not believe that in such an unqualified sense. Please re-read my post where I go into some detail on the aeonically ancient proto-development of the religious drive, it's a totally vital input. Further, religion is not just an intuitive product in the manner of perceptions gained via an unbiased open channel to deeper divinity- if it was, how truly wonderful that would be! Instead of foundational contributions from only an innocent, and innocuous mode of intuitive perception and its interpretation, there were, and are, most definitely a less innocuous, and far more Earthly, demagogic, socially manipulative, even quite malicious contributions to it in another form of intuition. Intuition cannot only be seen in its innocuous mode. When we consider the arguments of St. Cyril for example against Theodore of Mopsuestia at the Council of Ephesus - Cyril’s ecclesiastical authority at this council, in order to establish the true natures of god and Christ, did not limit itself to canonical dialectic – the vast wealth of his See came in quite handily as source of effective “incentives” to the participants, and, in existing lists, apart from ivory chairs, jewels, valuable silks and ostriches, good old Cyril, cornerstone of piety and uprightness, touched the most important fifteen members of the council with no less than the equivalent of a million dollars. Much of what followed became dogmatically entrenched. We must then of course again believe, believe, believe, that this was divinely guided and not just human process (and gosh, what an ugly one it was when you deeply study it as I have. That's just truly the tiniest foretaste. There is so vastly much more. Read Procopius, much maligned his Secret Histories (because he points out the true, unquestionable malignancy of some major players in the formation of what religion is today. Justinian and Theodora undoubtedly, as I have pointed out before, had a major influence on forcing an erasive editing of scripture - it's been denied by highly authorative ecclesiastical sources - yet with deeper study the proof is convincing. Study von Tischendorff's comments on the editing of scripture, also the spurious editions made to several chapters, literally centuries after the main events, which have the most serious, profound, ultimate effect on the very basis of liturgical interpretation.

Ah, why not "without graffiti" ? Why not rather with honestly argued debate, controlled exchange? Perhaps you do not append the same negative connotation to graffiti as is commonly understood, and which I implied in my usage of it: spurious defacement.

Insyght, with your "You state that these man have a history of unquestionable actions" did you perhaps mean questionable actions" ? Because that is certainly what deeper study incontrovertibly points out.

When after another stated premise you ask: "it not merely the same thing: Thoughts of man (yourself), written down, without solid backing?" No, it is most certainly not, I prove that conclusively in my book "The Nature of Being." Surely already the fact that there was much "non-disinterested" and malicious alteration of texts, spurious addition, editing that completely changed meaning and context for specific purpose, makes you suspect that this could not be just, purely unmodified divine input via completely neutrally receptive human mediumship? Please get this clear: I am happy for those who believe, even believe with blind unquestioning faith - it is exactly right for them. However, and it is an important "however" - I say that if they were to have the courage, and it does take courage, to step for some moments beyond unquestioned passive subscription, undeniably also a comfort zone then, and truly investigate the hitorical development of religion, in detail, they will find an alternative paradigm that leads to greater divinity - it does not exclude love of the divine, neither does it exclude such beautiful example as remains encoded in biblical scripture - yet, it does evolve beyond in a greater inclusiveness and I have not the very slightest doubt of that. (Forgive the long sentence, there was no other way to handle that, I felt)

No, it is not the same - it is certainly not just a case of belief versus belief, that I assure you with the most heartfelt conviction.

Ah, the gender issue - such an interesting case.. Christ was a man, and undoubtedly would wish to be referred to as one. The divine seen as "father" is a granted aspect in Christ's references, however there is the "mother" aspect of the divine as well - and by conspicuous and consistent omission it is this which strongly catalyses genderism - I am sure you agree with me on such excesses in the extremes I have pointed out, and that in these "He" insistences, their potentials are maximised, not normalised, neither minimised.

I repeat, trans-religious theistic "He-ness" in its devolvement upon an already male-genderistic society, and sometimes machomaniacal society, such as the Taleban and Islamic societal groupings with their resultant Karo-Kari courts and Sharia law, has doubtlessly promoted the heinous suppression of womanhood, and terribly often its casual destruction. The change, to my mind, would promote a healing.

Peace and Joy,
FV
mikmik
Tachyon,
QUOTE
You deliberately synthesised false process, motive and thoughts and then attribute them to me. Your whole counter therefore is seen (again) for what it's worth, Watery, it's false, unfounded, and symptomised mainly by your inclination, which of course, (highly objective as this has to be) is not just rhetorical, but based on a malevolent misinterpretation founded on deliberate mis-quotation, putting self-synthesised thoughts and words into other's minds and mouths - that technique was well known to the KGB, the SS, and the inquisition, they used it on Bruno and Galileo too, I am not surprised it comes easily to you
<br>Sure, whatever you say. you never yet countered my points, you just explain what my motivation or accuse me of improper logic.

You still have yet to back up your assertions, and if you can spare me the "yes, that is what they all say when they have lost' crap and prove a point with reasons, then I would respect you.

But, you use my manner as excuse to avoid me, yet your manner is just as insulting and condescending, and that was my point.

You continue to hide, and you continue to not address a single point I have made specifically, with either an example of what exactly you refer to, or some reasoning.

You still are only capable of spouting your opinion and decree, you have still not shown anything but contempt for reason and honesty

You can brush me off all you want, Tachyon, but you show no respect and get none, and I could care less about what you call me, I still use my logic and reasoning like sensible folk around here are want. You, do not, and have not even though I and others have challenged you. You ignore, cajole, insult, and beittle, yet you never address my point.

You never still have address any of my critiques. If you have such a thin skin, you should not post for honest feedback, and if you choose to hide behind 'you are too whatever for me to take seriously, you should at least understand that you still leave my points unrebutted.

You still have excuses and judgments, no answers.

And you are certainly another example of you contradicting your self professed belief that all is devine and good. Sure not how you act, is it?

Answer some of my points and quit dodging. You are still afraid to respond, it is not me that is proving it or trying to impress that, it is a fact which you demonstrate every time you evade my arguments and critique.




I do not care what you think of me, defend your ideas before the folk, or not ;]

I have easily made my point, I hope. It is the fight against the ugliness of elitism and even worse, pseudo-intellectual ego stroking, lies and posturing posing as truth. That is what's vulgar, my friend.

Oh yeah, courage. you obviously are much smarter than me, yet I fear not. It is you who still hides.



Wonder how many people read this, tachyon, um mm? You really think i can possibly believe I could or would get you to change? Is it even you or me anyone else cares about?... or our words and ideas. There are lots of people watching.
mikmik
Admin: According to our board rules, all posts containing foul language will be deleted.
WaterBreath
Tachyon,

I have to say up front that I'm afraid my comments regarding the graffiti may have been taken not at all how I intended them, as I apparently left out a "not" from one of my statements. I will not go back and change the post, as it will mean your comments may not make as much sense. But to attempt to rectify what I was trying to say, "I will not defend the character of those who do so". I do not condone such approaches in any way, and tend to think of them as pollutive, just as you do. However, we must recognize that those who maintain this venue for our benefit, at no cost to us, are the final judges on what may and may not be said here. And if they see fit to leave the boundary at the traditional "freedoms of speech", then we must, unfortunately, bear the unpleasant consequences along with the desired ones. There's nothing we can do, so best to ignore it. That's all I'm saying.

That said, obviously I don't consider my first comment to be in the same category as certain others in this thread. I hope you'll agree with me at least that far. I may have been "insensitive" or "impolite" in other threads, responding on topics that I am knowledgeable in (such as whether it is theoretically possible for a purely physical entity to be capable of intelligence... but that's beside the point.) However, I'm sure you'll agree, from your experience dealing with rabid creationists, that wilfull ignorance is frustrating to deal with in a debate. I do my best never to be truly crude or to abandon logic altogether in hopes of defeating an ideological opponent through ridicule alone. I hope you have not construed my comments in this thread as such, for they were truly not intended to be. Given the conclusions I had made (inaccurate though they may have been), I felt that I was revealing a hole in your approach. Omission of evidence was only because I thought that the point I was making should have been quite obvious.

I am willing to put it behind, if you are.

Regarding your style of writing, I still think it is befitting a "professional" venue, which this decidedly is not. (I suspect there is almost, if not absolutely, no one here beside you who is "used to deep semiosis". wink.gif) I think that your presentation probably invites more backlash than your content does, simply because many people have not the ability or the patience to comprehend it, and chalk it up to arrogance that you require it. For myself it is just a bit of impatience. I don't have the time to absorb and digest long strings of information in such a complex format. Leastwise, not when there is a "pressure" to get a response together and posted within a relatively short period. I can handle it in research papers, upon which I can ruminate at my leisure. But in interchange in an otherwise fairly casual venue, it makes me "twitchy". Furthermore, I am a bit of a writer myself, but not on such topics as require formal-logic-style argument. If a large segment of my readers feel I'm going over their head, it means I've failed in my goal, whereas you might rather justifiedly consider them not to have belonged in your audience in the first place. Obviously, the goals behind your writing here are different from mine in my own endeavors. But that doesn't stop the nagging that I feel when I read something that could have been stated much simpler, at the cost of a very small (though probably unacceptable, to you) increase in ambiguity. That said, however, I am attempting to meet you half-way.

Finally, you quote me as saying it was your proposition that "religion is based on mature intuition". Since I did already find one typo in my last post I had to go back and check, but I verified that I had it right this time, and you have misquoted (and so maybe misunderstood?) I said your apparent position is that religion is not based on mature intuition, or as you put it in your most recent post, pure intuition. It is in the equivalence of "pure" intuition with "mature" intuition, that you reveal your condescension to the Christian viewpoint. I do not criticize this, I just disagree with it. You say that you believe that if Christians were to step outside their comfort zones they would find a higher and more inclusive paradigm. What do you mean by inclusive? I suspect you mean that one would see that the differences, which many people stress, between religions are less important than they are made out to be. If that is indeed what you are saying, and you are not just speaking of general tolerance or peaceful coexistence, then obviously here I disagree. I do believe there are certain absolutes. But I also believe peaceful coexistence with religious ideological opponents is not only possible, but required by these absolutes. I expect we will not be able to reconcile this difference, but at least knowing where each of us stands aids in understanding the other view.

I do agree that the lion's share of Christian organizations and movements throughout history have suffered in credibility and gained in popularity due to the psychological state of their adherents, but I do not think this is a universally applicable generalization. If with Christianity, as in anything, maturity or purity is sought by few and gained by fewer, it must necessarily happen that the mature will be outnumbered by the immature. Unfortunately the nature of the immature, but immensely popular, Christian mindset is typically such that it fears, shuts out, and even actively seeks to destroy alternative viewpoints that might deprive itself of credibility. Especially within the sphere of Christianity, there is a tone of "this town isn't big enough for the both of us" that goes beyond a simple belief that "I am right and you are wrong". This is one of your criticisms of Christianity as well, is it not? At any rate, if this is true, it seems very unlikely that, even if a mature Christian outlook can be obtained, as I contend there can, that it would be successfully publicized in the face of such rabid opposition. One would hope that an enlightened person external to the Christian sphere, who is qualified to see the merits of a mature Christian viewpoint, might happen upon one and extend an olive branch, and offer support against the opposing hordes. However, it seems rather popular, though not universal, in the non-Christian world (and this may be a time-transcendant phenomenon) to give no quarter to Christians of any type, and so such hope seems dim at best. I would contend that, if there is an absence of visible Christian maturity, that this is it.

It may (or may not) please you to know that the type of Christian you described in your response to Insyght and I is not the type of Christian that I am. And this is where I have authority to say that certain generalizations are not universally applicable. I am not a part of an organized religion. I do not take my beliefs as handed down by the leader of a church. The essence of my faith lies in a few simple propositions: That the Bible is inspired by God. I am not naive enough to think that men have not tampered with scripture. But I do believe that if it is really inspired by God, then He has the ability, and good sense, to preserve the essence from the meddling of people who neither understand, nor care, what that message truly is. Furthermore, I believe that understanding of this essence is obtained through something similar to what you call the intuitive channel to the divine, whereby a communion of the state of a person's spirit and mind with the nature of God allows Him to guide our further understanding. Finally, I hold that it is worthless to hold Christian beliefs unless one has truly investigated and comprehended them for oneself. Taking cues from a church official, or any other supposedly more knowledgeable figure is "not good enough".

Those are the tenets of my own personal beliefs, just so you understand where I'm coming from.
Insyght
QUOTE
Insyght, with your "You state that these man have a history of unquestionable actions" did you perhaps mean questionable actions" ? Because that is certainly what deeper study incontrovertibly points out.
<br>Yes, typo smile.gif

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Insyght, with your "You state that these man have a history of unquestionable actions" did you perhaps mean questionable actions" ? Because that is certainly what deeper study incontrovertibly points out.
<br>Yes, typo smile.gif

Ah, the gender issue - such an interesting case.. Christ was a man, and undoubtedly would wish to be referred to as one. The divine seen as "father" is a granted aspect in Christ's references, however there is the "mother" aspect of the divine as well - and by conspicuous and consistent omission it is this which strongly catalyses genderism - I am sure you agree with me on such excesses in the extremes I have pointed out, and that in these "He" insistences, their potentials are maximised, not normalised, neither minimised.
<br>Perhaps standard Christians might say this, but my belief about Christ is somewhat different. I find support in scripture that Christ was not just a man, born who walked the earth. I don't see him as God either, rather as a God, who had some previous heavenly existance before embarking on human life for that short time. This one understanding puts a large twist on how I would see your arguement. Christ was at some time in the form of a spiritual body, before his human life - for a loooong time. Yet, when he arrived on earth, he refered to this creator, the one true God as "father", consistantly. He even made the point of instructing use not to call each other on the earth Father, for there is one father.

Again, I enforce my original point regarding the role a father plays in protection. On scripture talks about followers becoming his sons and he becoming there father and ties this nicely in with protection. I will look up the reference later - it is late.

I postulate simply the following: If Adam was called woman and eve was called man, the scripture would have been full of "she". It is his ROLE that God is trying to portray to us. Nothing more.

QUOTE
I say that if they were to have the courage, and it does take courage, to step for some moments beyond unquestioned passive subscription, undeniably also a comfort zone then, and truly investigate the hitorical development of religion, in detail, they will find an alternative paradigm that leads to greater divinity
<br>This has the facets of a dodecahedron. Some call this liberty, others call this apostacy, some call this spiritual weakness, others call it personnal strength. I don't know what I call it. In essance you say that everyone in religion are binding them selves to a trap. I don't know. I have studied lots. I have come across supposed contradictions. I have resolved them. I have read the history to some degree and conclude that 99% of what world religion teaches is lies. Funny, you ever read that scripture saying that narrow is the road leading to life and FEW are the ones finding it?

Take Catholosism for example, it was edging around the 1 billion mark, take Muslim... that was around 1.2 billion followers last time I checked. Does these figures describe the "few" finding the road to life?

Kinda funny if you think about it. Because simply put, to be mainstream and get them numbers you need to adjust your standards to adapt to world change. Gay marriage is a classic example. Once held as clear cut, now certain Churches are holding votes to determine if "their particular" Church should bless such arrangements. The members who hold to God's law are told not to talk about it... its hate mongering.

Take these churches, tell them that coming to church on Sunday and being out partying and revaling till 2am that morning is wrong, take away the "you are saved" speaches and the parties and outings and start to discipline the follows according to Gods word. What do you think will happen to their numbers?

I really don't let my self conform to mans tradition - I try my hardest - but I will let my self be lead by the words printed in the Bible, because I believe them and that the one true God sent them for us. As for the rest .... pfffffffffff.

mikmik
In Focus: Bad Writing

QUOTE
Ophelia Benson

It may seem like an exercise in administering corporal punishment to a deceased equine quadruped, to say harsh things about academic Bad Writing - but of course it's not, for the cogent reason that the horse is not dead. Academic Bad Writing is indeed old news, and no secret. But it is also on-going: a thriving, flourishing, burgeoning industry with all too much product. The market is saturated, indeed the water is up over the second floor windows, but the rain keeps falling. The vampire keeps waking up every night to find fresh blood, so all we can do is keep pounding away on the stake through the heart.

Of course, one reason academic bad writing is evergreen is vocational. The bad writing in question is not the merely quotidian clunkiness and hack writing that's inevitable in a vast profession under constant pressure to publish - it's the notoriously opaque, preening, self-admiring, inflated prose of 'theory.' And for the moment, for whatever bizarre reason, 'theory' is what gets promoted and given tenure, therefore aspiring Assistant Professors and adjuncts have to crank it out, whether they actually like doing the stuff or not. But another reason, and one with a more malign effect, is the easy availability of an array of defense mechanisms. Bad writers have a set of self-flattering responses to criticism all ready and lined up, and they trot them out with alacrity whenever anyone suggests that they ought to make sense, as in this passage from the Introduction to the anthology Critical Terms for Literary Study, edited by Frank Lentricchia and Thomas McLaughlin.

<br>waterbreath
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Ophelia Benson

It may seem like an exercise in administering corporal punishment to a deceased equine quadruped, to say harsh things about academic Bad Writing - but of course it's not, for the cogent reason that the horse is not dead. Academic Bad Writing is indeed old news, and no secret. But it is also on-going: a thriving, flourishing, burgeoning industry with all too much product. The market is saturated, indeed the water is up over the second floor windows, but the rain keeps falling. The vampire keeps waking up every night to find fresh blood, so all we can do is keep pounding away on the stake through the heart.

Of course, one reason academic bad writing is evergreen is vocational. The bad writing in question is not the merely quotidian clunkiness and hack writing that's inevitable in a vast profession under constant pressure to publish - it's the notoriously opaque, preening, self-admiring, inflated prose of 'theory.' And for the moment, for whatever bizarre reason, 'theory' is what gets promoted and given tenure, therefore aspiring Assistant Professors and adjuncts have to crank it out, whether they actually like doing the stuff or not. But another reason, and one with a more malign effect, is the easy availability of an array of defense mechanisms. Bad writers have a set of self-flattering responses to criticism all ready and lined up, and they trot them out with alacrity whenever anyone suggests that they ought to make sense, as in this passage from the Introduction to the anthology Critical Terms for Literary Study, edited by Frank Lentricchia and Thomas McLaughlin.

<br>waterbreathI do not condone such approaches in any way, and tend to think of them as pollutive, just as you do. However, we must recognize that those who maintain this venue for our benefit, at no cost to us, are the final judges on what may and may not be said here. And if they see fit to leave the boundary at the traditional "freedoms of speech", then we must, unfortunately, bear the unpleasant consequences along with the desired ones. There's nothing we can do, so best to ignore it. That's all I'm saying.

That said, obviously I don't consider my first comment to be in the same category as certain others in this thread. would that be moi?

Yes, and it is maintained for the ones who pollute it with trash and give others the benifit to crticize it.

I am getting really, really tired and bored of this lame excuse for not addressing criticisms in the article.

Whatever your opinions of my validity to be here, it is the words that matter. quit hiding behind your delicate sensibilities, you are grown up. It does not hurt to be called a name, but spreading lies and trash does. You are wasting our time, Tachyon, and I have made my points, and you have not addressed them.

You have still, still, still, not addressed them, and your same old cry-baby excuse of bruised sensibilities is worn thin long ago.

And waterbreath, if you are going to play the haughty game, go ahead. But you made the point, it is up to admin.

I am appalled at the lack of respect for honesty, and the lack of accountability for your words. You, again I point out, you dare to chastise for common language that a 6 year old hears on the playground and become so wounded like I am a monster. Get a grip, you are stronger than that.

You insult me with your continued crying of unfairness, yet by the very nature of me being here, I am equal to you, and my words have merit.

Bad writers have a set of self-flattering responses to criticism all ready and lined up, and they trot them out with alacrity whenever anyone suggests that they ought to make sense

C'mon, Tachyon, one more time! What is so FF is that this is so textbook, you are not even original, Frank.

Answer your critics.... Or we wonder "why not?" (okay, not everyone. Prolly no one but us 3 or 4 cares, LMAO)
WaterBreath
mikmik,

I don't think it is haughty of me to say that I don't agree with your style of approach in criticizing Tachyon's posts. You may very well have valid points, but I can't fault Tachyon for responding to your heckling in kind, rather than with explanation. Regardless whether we agree or disagree on actual points of argument, I don't think personal insult is going to avail anyone on either side.

As for the content of his posts, it is sensical. It is just complexly formatted. It is very precise in what it expresses. It is not, however, the type of "natural language" that those of us outside research circles expect to read. I've already said I think a natural language approach would be more appropriate for this venue, and would reach more people more effectively. And Tachyon, to his credit, has said he will attempt to keep his language a bit simpler.

Anyway, I mean nothing personal by all that. I have valued your input in other threads, and will continue to do so.
Tachyon8491
Waterbreath, "I hope you have not construed my comments in this thread as such, for they were truly not intended to be." - No, I accept your stance and appreciate a constructively objective attitude.

You mention: "I am knowledgeable in (such as whether it is theoretically possible for a purely physical entity to be capable of intelligence... but that's beside the point.)" - Actually my friend, this is probably one of the most acutely seminal points I can identify! It's very much central and foundational to my thesis, and I wonder whether you have, 1. perhaps not encountered it in my articles, 2. not felt motivated to address it. Please look at my references to Bohm's statement regarding the electron's "effective consciousness" and my further expounding on that. Also in this context is D. Dennett's extensive and important work on "Design Intentionality" and all its implications. I refer to this most briefly in this way here only, as I find complete restatement and perhaps even further expansion a tremendous imposition on time, and (perhaps) redundant. Also please look at my proposition of an unbroken continuum of organicity, which has very scholastically been divided into disparate domains (with the standard tendency to look only at the poles of a continuum and miss, and dismiss, the "continuality"). I treat this subject at great length in my book, with many examples in prokaryotic / eukaryotic domains. In this domain, phase transitions with their typical non-linearity of morphological functionality across these transitions, due to a "sum-greater-than-parts" synergy in self-reorganisational potential as reaction to environmental stimuli, are important to see in a correct context. Also refer to nuclear genomic inheritance of precedent (or collateral co-evolutive) taxons, by means of well-accepted 1. colonial, or 2. phagocytic endosymbiosis. - There are many examples of this, supporting the view that higher unitary organic complexity is marked not just by endogenous evolutional generation of internal cellular differentiation and organelle / organ morphology - instead such "higher individuals" show a marked hierarchical organisation with much evidence of a co-adaptive colonial integration of precedent taxonomy internal to them, and the further specialising evolution of these integrated unitary complexes.

But briefly, it is very difficult to falsify the proposition that consciousness and intelligence are not associable - in fact, one cannot identify these in their attributional elements as occupying anything but congruent sets and not partial overlap with a common set and disjunct elemental sets. The last thing one must do of course, is to remain hooked to the anthropocentric tendency of seeing things only in terms of human consciousness and human intelligence. That particular fault has literally lasted for millennia and still echos in contentions of some, that even higher primates, with the exception of Human, are not intelligent. Let's conjecturally allow that consciousness congruently implies intelligence - by that I imply an inseparable congruence between identifiable attributes of consciousness and those of intelligence. So much more to say about this - but little room for that here. In short, higher operational functionality is enabled by 1. non-linear synergy in hierarchical complexity and its organisation, 2. specialisation of these entity-internal domains 3. multifunctional paths of intercommunication between these internal domains. Examples of that are already clear in both, 1. the view of molecular embryology, 2. the view of morphogenetic embryology - in their cellular differentiation and organ-domain specialisation and generation. In one of the highest senses of this we can see in our own humble human morphology, simplified vastly here, such paths as the neural, hormonal, and dynamically distributed humoral-biochemical. PNI also recognises another vitally, let me say, critically important pathway - that directly between consciousness and any identifiable unitary organisation in the entity - in that regard witness the experiments regarding neutrophils performed by professor Jeanne Acherberg, in my earlier posts.

We must not attempt to see cybernetics and neural net models as being a sufficient analogue model of actual, "natural organicity" - they are just a first, or nth-approximation of such intelligence. Reflecting the operation of such models back into the natural organic ontogeny of the universe, can generate the dangerous impression that these can factually model the multiplural interactions of their constituent organised complexes - the dynamic range of these far exceeds the limited dynamic functionality domain of simplistic modelling. An interesting implication of this lies in the technological-instrumental enhancement of human senses in our investigation of reality - the design and aim of these follow both philosophical, conjectural induction and theoretical physics modelling - as such, they often "manage to prove what was meant to be proven." That, automatically also implies a limit of actual ontogenic attribute detection - trace this though the history of our investigations from Lipperschey to Huygens, to Galileo, to e.g. Dirac and Feynman. Sure, we hone in ever closer perhaps, in more accurate model analogues, but I maintain that purely physical, instrumentational investigation also has specific limits. We humans are certainly scientific animals, but vastly more than that in our exploration of reality. The scientific approach is enormously fruitful, however, comparing the ancient knowledge as modelled in the Tao, it is astounding what correspondence occurs in investigations by pure consciousness at higher functional levels of its capacities. See, Fritjoff Capra's "The Tao of Physics." Let us not forget though, that the anthropomania that "intuited" the geocentric concept, was inane, and the reasons for that clear. It was one of the most retrogressive steps imaginable. Five hundred earlier in the Greek Golden Age (as I have more extensively quoted in earlier post) it was commonly known that the Earth was a sphere, circled the Sun, which was a star like countless others, and Metrodorus of Chios even posited that, "To suppose that Earth is the only populated world in infinite space is as absurd as to believe that in an entire field sown with millet, only one grain will grow," in the fourth Century BPE. It took a few centuries more to recover from the gross irrationalities, insanities and witch-hunts of the Dark Ages..

Hmmm, I really cannot remember stating anywhere that "religion is based on mature, or pure, intuition" - in fact, as I pointed out, I don't even believe that, and gave my perspective of this. If I did indeed do so, I wonder if that was literal (where?) or wether this is an interpretation attributed to me. I certainly do believe in mature intuition, and pure intuition too - and their seminal functionality. An interesting topic. What about the "pure and mature intuition" that caused the following:

From The Nature of Being © FV

QUOTE
The Albigenses, arising as early as the 5th Century A.D. inherited the Manichaeistic renunciation of materialism. Aspiring to extreme asceticism, they perceived the traditional Christian church with its ongoing accumulation of enormous material wealth and increasingly corrupt clergy to be satanically inspired. No miracle therefore that classified as the worst heretics, they were routed out by pope Innocent the III’s armed Albigensian Crusade in a reverse religious intolerance which brands religionism from its earliest days throughout the murderous ages. Examples certainly must be the wholesale murder of an estimated 100 000 Cathari after their condemnation by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, the excesses of the almost two-hundred years of religiously fevered crusades starting in 1066 which historically are accepted as a “military failure” euphemising their expansionist motives , the massacre of Christian victory over Jerusalem in 1099, the brutal inquisitions with their satanically dark master Tomas Torquemada’s rabid antisemitism resulting in a conservative 30 000 deaths, dissecting heretics and the unconfessing according to Jakob Sprenger and Heinrich Kramer’s inspired and pathological misogynism in their 1486 Malleus Maleficarum, that rid the Christian world mainly of girls and women – the list has an end mainly by generous definition. The religious hysteria which strove to find extra breasts and nipples on witches for the suckling of familiars, declared them innocent when they drowned in water-tests but guilty when they remained afloat, and paid professional witch-finders, was exacerbated by Pope Innocent VIIIth's Summis Desiderantis papal bull, attached as preface to the Malleus. Let it suffice here to record that from the perspective of sociohistorical significance of sheer numerical fatality, the ripping, tearing and rupture of every single human aperture, the hacking, cutting, fracture and pulling off of every single human extremity with an accent on genital structures, scraping off and tearing of muscular tissue and skin, blinding and deafening, progressive piercing, drowning and burning, heinously extending death by internal and external mutilation is more specifically typical of religionistically inspired psycho-philosophy, both in its forcing confession for the “saving of souls” and “justified punishment,” than it is due to any other cause. Although doubtlessly much torture has been committed in the excesses associated with military action and ruthless regimes, the fact that religiously inspired torture and murder are committed in the name of what is held to be most ultimately sacred, certainly puts a special perspective on it.
END QUOTE
Extracted from The Nature of Being, Part Two; Chapter 10; Section, The Edge of Ambiguity; p246. copyright © Frank Valentyn, 2003 to present; all rights reserved.

Perhaps you will agree that there is intuition, and, intuition? Or that there are levels of intuition - some which penetrate to deeper truth than others? And what does that acutely depend on, mainly - I propose that it depends much on who is doing the intuiting, their phase of psychospiritual development, and the freedom from passive, unquestioning subscription to intractably entrenched dogmatic paradigm, and that quite apart from unique biases in their own internal personality-processing, one main reason they here on this planet for.

If of course, my statement that there is intuition, and, intuition, is taken as a grossest and assumptive arrogance, not a sense in which I intended this at all, then such levels must of course not exist. In actuality I recognise far greater and penetrative intuitions than my own, but also those intuitions that are naturally, or artificially, inclined to mis-intuit them.

Of course generalisations are not universally applicable, I would certainly not hold all believers, in any religion, or religionism, to be intrinsically evil, for example. So many of them are wonderful, incredible people, many personal friends of mine among them. But my investigations have led me incontrovertibly to believe that the scriptures which are their sole reference and origin (there is something acutely questionable about this in itself) have been extensively and destructively tampered with - in the absence of your own personal in-depth and open-minded investigation as to the exact manner and specifics of this tampering, edition, omission, addition and "creative" re-interpretation, you will not even begin to see that there is a quite distinctly opposite possibility to your deep faith that these alterations were "inspired by god." Of course it is the impact and power of your faith that holds this sanity, and in contrast, the insanity of stepping outside that frame of reference and inclination. As I have stated several times before, it takes not just courage, but truly immense, incomparable courage, to dare to have a true openness, and to investigate whether a greater inclusive whole exists. I maintain that it does - it is my incredible, inestimable blessing, yet also my curse and burden - there is a price to pay for all growth, progress and advance, so it has been throughout the ages. The question is simply whether one is prepared to pay it, by loving dedication to the immense vista of beauty, divine intelligence and openness I have come to see, I am.

Frank Valentyn
WaterBreath
Tachyon,

I do not think we are in disagreement on the nature or origin of consciousness and/or intelligence, or on the fact that human intelligence does not scientifically appear to be "special", though it is at a different point in the continuum of biological intelligences, as you noted. This, however, is not what the poster (and it was not you I was reacting to over there, but someone else) in the other thread was arguing. There was a definite extra-physical quality to his proposal, which it seemed he was not admitting was unscientific. That was my only real gripe, but I think it was totally blown out of proportion over there. My arguments involving artificial intelligence systems were spurred by a desire to bring in hard scientific exploration of intelligence mechanisms, that's all. Maybe I expressed this poorly over there. At any rate, I am more interested in the debates from the current thread...

QUOTE
Hmmm, I really cannot remember stating anywhere that "religion is based on mature, or pure, intuition"
You've misquoted or misread me again. I said your apparent position is that religion, specifically mainstream Christianity, has not been based on mature intuition. I wholeheartedly agree. And as you acknowledged that such generalizations are not universally applicable, my post wasn't necessarily in argument of yours. I didn't necessarily think that you held the opinion that the juxtaposition of mature intuition and Christian faith was impossible. But I feared that others might use your arguments to claim just such a thing. So my post was meant as an encouragement for others not to dismiss Christianity in one fell swoop due to the faults of the mainstream (past and present) which you have rightly pointed out.

Admittedly, I have not researched the editing escapades of the many misguided religious organizations over the past two millenia. But I am generally aware of many, and specifically aware of some. And the viewpoint that I hold regarding the past changing of scripture can be expressed by an analogy to signal-to-noise ratio in electronics. I would contend that the sheer size of the scripture and its repetetive nature serves as a certain amount of protection against change. Despite the fact that words may be manipulated to muddy their meanings, the fact remains that numerous themes are threaded throughout the entirety of the scripture. And that these themes are visible across translational barriers, in English, Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. Furthermore, it easy to dismiss the possiblity that the hand of God might protect the important threads through ignorant or even malicious messling, when you have already dismissed the possibility that the hand of God guided the initial writing.

Please believe me, I do understand your points. They are perfectly logical and understandable. I am sympathetic to your cause and your reasoning. But I have found a great deal of "truth" in scripture that serves to reinforce to me its spiritual significance. I cannot provide you with evidence of this, as it is my own desire and my own psychology that has allowed me to see what I see there, as yours has for your own studies. While I believe "no scripture is of private interpretation", I do believe that it is a fundamental "requirement" that it must be privately accepted and understood in order for it to mean anything. By which I mean a lack of inherent foundational faith and desire precludes the possibility of an individual building faith and desire.

I expect that some will say this conveniently protects my viewpoint from dissent, similarly to what mikmik claimed about summary dismissal of unstructured criticism protecting the flaws in complex exposition. This criticism I also understand, and sympathize with, as I feel that I see the same in other philosophies. And while I am, to an extent, offended by the allegation, I do not take it personally. To be fair, I think that all philosophies, even yours Tachyon, are self-serving, and build at the lowest foundational levels upon the conscious and subconscious hopes of the individual.

But here is where I think I differ from you in approach... I do not think such subjectivity inherently precludes a certain exclusive approach from being "correct". If we allow this possibility, then is it, as many would claim, inherently unfair to expect that there will be consequences for those who "get it wrong", because their hopes and desires are "misplaced"? I would posit that it is not, though most peopel I have encountered disagree.
Bodhidharma
Is your book as hard to read as your post? Cause if so then i should just go with an easier read like Steven Hawkings' The Universe in a Nutshell
Tachyon8491
Dear WB, your analogy of signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) is open to several considerations that throw interesting light on the analogised conceptual target. Firstly, from a purely statistical IT analysis, the syntagmatic and semiotic content of scripture must of course contain both signal and noise; however, your reference to "sheer size" of the scriptural record omits (and I'm sure this was not intentional but accidental) the vastly important fact of editing by all processes I referred to which has delivered the body of that record as it now stands. Imagine that the line nnnnSnSSSnSSSSSnnXnnSSSSSSSn symbolises: S=Signal (originally conceived percept in unaltered form; n=noise, spurious addition, deletion, alteration, augmentation, diminution, reinterpretation, etc. and X is a major foundational premise of the paradigm - we could even see many of the S's being reliant in their intended interpretation on the meaning of X and therefore legitimately symbolise the removal of X as resulting in the symbolic representation: nnnnSnSnnnSnnnSnn.nnSSnnnnSn, where the "." represents the removal of the major percept, precept, foundational tenet, X.

Accordingly the Ss that depended in their interpretation on X, to deduce their intended and correct meaning, now only allow interpretation with the remnant percept matrix as reference framework and, no longer conceptually defined, attributionally modulated, perceptually-conceptually channelled by that major percept, have degraded into noise. Effectively, the modern historical view (MHV) of the paradigm body and the original historical view (OHV) are now vastly disparate. The modern viewer thinks, that he sees the OHV:

OHV: nnnnSnSSSnSSSSSnnXnnSSSSSSSn whereas they actually see the MHV -
MHV: nnnnSnSnnnSnnnSnn.nnSSnnnnSn (equal perceptual element number)

Consequently although the effective SNR has reduced dramatically, the effective interpretation is that it is in fact intact, whereas it may even have suffered not just degradation, but fatal flawing. As I pointed out, there is much evidence to this effect. Important to understand here is that in the times of manually copied works and the absolute power of Byzantine ecclesiastical police, such change was truly easy to implement - evidence for this also abounds in the historical record. Further, the impression that "sheer volume," created mainly in the consideration of mechanically mass-printed facsimile copies, may be a safeguard against alteration, is unfounded in the consideration that major tenets were removed long, long before such propagation became possible via Gutenberg's invention and his, and Caxton's work. More importantly, the major perceptual body representing the faith was verbally communicated for literally centuries before the first written versions available to us:

From The Nature of Being © Frank Valentyn -

QUOTE
Voltaire gets to the ultimate crux of the matter in summarising: “None of the early fathers of the church cited a single passage from the four gospels as we accept them today. (They) not only failed to quote from the gospels, but they even adhered to several passages now found only in the apocryphal gospels rejected by the canon."

The Council of Nicea conspicuously coincides with an “extinction horizon” – the mechanism well-known in evolutionary biostratigraphy where fossils of a certain species are no longer present at the boundary represented by a certain date-range. Among the very oldest manuscripts remaining that date from the Christian Era, the Codex Syriacus dates from no earlier than the fourth Century, the Codex Sinaiticus, containing the new testament, no earlier than the fourth Century, the Codex Washingtonensis no earlier than the late fourth to early fifth Century, the Codex Vaticanus, no earlier than the mid-fourth Century, the Codex Bobiensis no earlier than the fourth or fifth Century; from the first half of the 5th cent. comes the Codex Alexandrinus; also from the 5th cent. is the Codex Ephraemi, the Codex Ambrosianus from the 6th C., the Codex Venetus from the 8th or 9th Century; Codex #1 of Agobard, 814-840AD, Codex Claudii Puteanii from Circa 900 AD; Codex Petri Pithoeii, Circa 1 000 AD. From the same time, the Codex Augustae-Taurinensis and the Codex Colbertinus (an earlier version); Codex Morbacensis after 1 050 AD., Codex Colbertinus (later version),13th C; codex of the Royal library in Paris, the Codex Parisinus Graecus – 11th C, Codex Vindobonensis II, 11th C; Codex Leidensis from the 11th or 12th C.; Codex Laurentianus, 14th C; and many others later. A manuscript from the monastery of St. Mary Deipara in Egypt bearing a date corresponding to 464 A.D. is the oldest copy of the Bible in any language bearing a definite date. However, none of our orthodox versions of the bible date from earlier than around the sixth century, glaringly coinciding with a major church council, the details of which sound much like something orchestrated and executed with CIA or KGB efficiency for disinformation. What happened in those hundreds of years to create such a thorough vacuum?

END QUOTE
Extracted from The Nature of Being, Part Two; Chapter 10; Section, The Edge of Ambiguity; pp 267+. copyright © Frank Valentyn, 2003 to present; all rights reserved.

I leave out vastly more which I treat extensively in my book and will not publish that here, variously for proprietary reasons and others. Of course, the book is freely available, although not as yet in the U.S.

Of course you're right in your feeling that a perceptual body "..must be privately accepted and understood in order for it to mean anything." In fact, as highly religious as I consider myself, I know the essences of my philosophy of the divine to be uniquely and intimately personal - in its specific percepts and conceptualisations is far from the only one such, I have however extended its implications to a level which I consider, on what I consider a well-informed basis, to be unprecedented. That took me 13 chapters and 530 pages to sufficiently introduce, and more remains to be done in extending minimal sufficiency to exemplary adequacy.

However, I consider your statement that " I think that all philosophies, ... are self-serving," highly tautological, and therefore quite redundant: this also seminally applies to Buddha, Christ, the Dalai Lama, and countless others. If however, you implied that the self-serving factor in these, is intended in the non-altruistic sense, then I could not disagree with you more. The only thing that counts, and should count, to my mind, is authentic truth. That statement can be conflated in a myriad ways; however, in a simple ultimacy of percept which is really not difficult to attain: although there are as many personal realities and personal truths as there are individuals, underlying these there is only one reality and one truth - it is this truth that we all pursue. The incredible sadness (see previous post for references to the following) is that in this search, there are also those who insist on the religiously sanctioned rape of girl-children before their execution as divinely guided punishment for disagreement with dogma (to ensure they go to hell and not paradise); the religious council-commanded mass-rape of women for the alleged infractions of a relative; the heinously extended inquisitional torture of countless human individuals not willingly subscribing to enforced paradigm, for the good of their souls; the religious murder of those who discover beyond the infantile tenets of a most simplistic modelling of reality; the religiously enforced female circumcision of non-believers, including pregnant and septuagenarian women. All these are historical, and present fact. How inestimably ashamed I am, that I must consider myself to belong to the same species that in its religious philosophies, the perception of the very highest, committed the most utterly lowest. In consideration of the satanic, a percept almost infinitely conflated, and the luciferic principle utterly misunderstood, we may refer to its ubiquitously common personified sense, and see, in all of human epistemology, the religionistic record and its liturgical culture as its single most effective sanctuary. Why is this? It has truly zero to do with an immanently omniscient all-lovingness in any way that this has been distortedly misconstrued, but everything with thoroughly human cognitive-emotional processing. To understand this in its fuller perspective needs penetration into ethological human origins, and the expression of psychoneurologically embedded world-modelling in resulting social dynamics, and how that world-modelling is actually constituted.

This is not to speak of the most conspicuous of all, that the religionistic drive is the single greatest seed of division, dis-unification, sectarian splintering, religious confrontation on all levels of social intercourse, individual, familial, tribal, national, of the crusading proselytism which is an inseparable symptom, the sense of religious supremacy that is the very essence of jihad and crusade, the constant (and ceaselessly ongoing) regressive retardation of all new discovery and deeper modelling of reality. How I could go on.. Yet, we need the divine - the words themselves have a sense of inadequacy and misapplication in their simplicity, we are inseparable from the divine, and it from us. The divine, in expressing itself though all existence, needs us as much as we need its immanence and sense of intimate indivisiblity and connectedness. In that, we are all legitimate children of the divine. The divine is single, indivisible, but pragmatically diffracted into countless observational facets - religion should be indivisible in resulting dynamics of consonant, harmonic, resolutive unification, pragmatically it follows the facetting. Perhaps it's time that we saw the single crystal, and not just a facet, or a selective and dogmatically prescribed subset of them.

Peace and Joy,
FV

mikmik
QUOTE
The only thing that counts, and should count, to my mind, is authentic truth
<br>And stealing the words of Volataire et al, and not addressing criticism to your points.

That is what counts, it appears, is avoiding the truth.

See you next time biggrin.gif

Bodhidharma: see my links to the opinions of writing like Tachyon. steven Hawking is both brilliant, and understandable in the extreme.

This is the job of a good communicator. It takes talent to break down complex ideas into interrelated individual and understandable statements. We see from a different, even completely uneducated in that 'field', perspective as compared to the writer.

Good ones strive for understandability.

mikmik
WaterBreath =
QUOTE
As for the content of his posts, it is sensical. It is just complexly formatted. It is very precise in what it expresses. It is not, however, the type of "natural language" that those of us outside research circles expect to read. I've already said I think a natural language approach would be more appropriate for this venue, and would reach more people more effectively
<br>I do differ in his writing being sensical. and I have changed my attitude.

I appreciate your time to respond. You are right, what do I expect when being abusive?
mikmik
WaterBreath =
QUOTE
As for the content of his posts, it is sensical. It is just complexly formatted. It is very precise in what it expresses. It is not, however, the type of "natural language" that those of us outside research circles expect to read. I've already said I think a natural language approach would be more appropriate for this venue, and would reach more people more effectively
<br>I do differ in his writing being sensical. And I have changed my attitude.

I appreciate your time to respond. You are right, what do I expect when being abusive?

However, I very much disagree with his credibility and accuracy and reasoning and choice of language. My refutations remain unanswered. Read into that what you will!

PS I have always read read above my level, I was college level (according to report card) in grade 7, like many of us I imagine. I read research papers all the time, many of us do. They are not like this in medicine (Lancet, NEJM), or ChembiosNews.

id you ever consider the possibility I have a learning disability? I cannot process written language properly.
I also get told all the time my writing is to difficult to understand, and that people have to think about it until it sometimes comes to them later. I know both sides of this very well.

When I get told I am un-understandable by someone, i endeavor to reword my thoughts and I feel it is a shortcoming on my part not to be inderstood.

One of my strongest feelings is that it takes two to communicate, and if someone is so smart, they should be able to produce easy to understand analogy to their words. Maybe it is just the ability to understand, to see things from various viewpoints, but many have it. Not Tachyon.

I too, have been sworn at and called a moron.(See some of my arguements about OSes!) My response is not to dismiss them, but to try to stick to the pints and prove them wrong.

So let's say we all just quit judging one another, and stick to the meaning of the words in the arguements. sticks and stones etc. But protocol is important as well, I understand that - which you pointed out tongue.gif
whitehound
QUOTE (Tachyon8491+Jul 7 2005, 02:55 AM)
The divine seen as "father" is a granted aspect in Christ's references,

It's not that simple. In Hebrew there is no neuter tense, so God has to be pinned down as He or She, mother or father. It's Jewish convention to call God Father, and Jesus as a Jew followed that convention - but that doesn't necessarily mean Jews see God as actually male, or that Jesus did.

Although God is referred to in Talmud as The Father God is also described in at least one place as having a womb, and also appears as a burning bush (neuter), as the Place from which all places are derived (neuter), and as a lion made of flames (possibly male, but not even vaguely manlike). In Judaism the aspect of God which just sits and is is conventionally refered to as male - but the bit which goes out into the world and does, the thing which Jews call the Shekinah and Christians call the HolySpirit, is conventionally seen as female, and Jesus also presumably called the Holy Spirit "she."

[Basically this means that in Judaism God is really a cosmic all-inclusive It, but there's no word for It in Hebrew, so they make do by calling some aspects of the divine He and others She.]
bobart
Tachyon-
Do aspects of inorganic consciousness persist through stages of increasing complexity and immergent phenomena to find expression in biological consciousness?I am having some difficulty grasping the nature of inorganic consciousness without biological attributes.Thanks.
Guest
QUOTE
Clear language engenders clear thought, and clear thought is the most important benefit of education. We are neither peddlers nor politicians that we should prosper by that use of language which carries the least meaning. We cannot honorably accept the wages, confidence, or licensure of the citizens who employ us as we darken counsel by words without understanding.
<br>
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Clear language engenders clear thought, and clear thought is the most important benefit of education. We are neither peddlers nor politicians that we should prosper by that use of language which carries the least meaning. We cannot honorably accept the wages, confidence, or licensure of the citizens who employ us as we darken counsel by words without understanding.
<br>The Underground Grammarian will expose and ridicule examples of jargon, faulty syntax, redundancy, needless neologism, and any other kind of outrage against English.
<a href='http://www.sourcetext.com/grammarian/' target='_blank'>http://www.sourcetext.com/grammarian/
mandible
Here is some clear writing you've done. Why not now?

I find myself looking in the dictionary more than reading your essay.
Tachyon8491
To all those unregistered readers who do not have the courage to display their identities but do have the fortitude to freely complain instead of asking for assistance or clarification, my sincere empathy with your linguistic, semantic, syntactic, logical inferential and hermeneutic challenges, and I wish you luck in purchasing those dictionaries you refer to.

FV
Tachyon8491
A Celebration of Refutation

Quote: "And stealing the words of Volataire et al..." (sic) - Dizzymix

Then below that - Oscar Wilde: "Arguments are to be avoided: they are always vulgar and often convincing."

1. Of course quoting Oscar Wilde is, in Dizzimix's case, then not theft, just a little stealthily dishonest borrowing...

2. I am not sure who "Volataire" was - Is the name derived from the Latin "Volare" - "to fly" and "aire" - "He who flies in the air," or perhaps more a subconscious reflection of the writer's own psyche: "He who flies in the face of decency and integrity of intent, and bequeathes himself airs in excess of his own abilities" ?

3. "What kind of sentence is, (Dizzymix:) "We see from a different, even completely uneducated in that 'field', perspective as compared to the writer." ??? And then, (Dizzymix) "That is what counts, it appears, is avoiding the truth." Heavens, if this qualifies as language, then indeed not just spelling, but also syntax, and intended meaning, are "optional." If this is the language exemplifying the excellence demanded from those whom this entity criticises, then Shakespeare, Socrates, and Einstein would urgently need to go back to school.

My deliberately truncated phrasing was: "The only thing that counts, and should count, to my mind, is authentic truth. That statement can be conflated in a myriad ways.."
Of course he did, as very confidently predicted, which is why I constructed the relation exactly that way. Not just this, but it proves once again the artificed distortion, deliberate mis-quotation, false contrast and personal value judgement taking the place of propositional construct that is this entity's forte and metier.

4. Post of his containing the grossest abusive swearing, at me personally, was removed by the administration of this site with a caution to him. You are an unprincipled, abusive and low-classed hypocryte, Dizzymix. Your "refutations" do not approach the category you attribute them to, they are as much personally biased value judgments as you accuse others of in standing for propositional constructs, and laden with constant personal attack. Then you have the unbridled gall to state: "and I have changed my attitude - you are right, what do I expect when being abusive?" Well, at least you allege having learned a lesson, right here in this thread, by the useless, distortive and counter-productive confrontation you favour. As I mentioned before, you pander to a base clique. However, I absolutely refuse to believe in your sudden rebirth of integrity, and to credit you for that alleged fundamental change of personality, I don't think anyone would. I repeat and stress, you are an abusive and aggressive hypocrite. In your case, apart from these observations here, I will absolutely not deign to respond to your inane fantasies of interpretation irrespective of whatever incidental warrant they may contain. Your accusation of "theft of words," in the case of a completely justified supportive reference, with a direct juxtaposition of your quoting Wilde, points out your hypocrisy, your self-serving distortion, and a fundamental mark of your approach and your character. In this, and all other instances, your "change of stance" is a blatant lie. I repeat as stated previously with emphasis, I will not deign to tread where I will have to wipe my shoe, which is your stance, method, and your personality. As much as I loathe ad hominem observations, I am persuaded to make an exception in your specific case: you eminently qualify: you are loathsome. I wish you two words, and they are not "Bon Voyage."

I have shown repeatedly that I will respond (where I have the time and opportunity - I have a wife, children and much work) to those who have the culture to approach me in a decent, constructive and civil manner, irrespective of their contentions. You, however do not belong to that class. Also, indicated by the continuing definitive manner of your posts, you never will.

FV
Tachyon8491
Hello Bobart,

Your question: "Do aspects of inorganic consciousness persist through stages of increasing complexity and immergent phenomena to find expression in biological consciousness?I am having some difficulty grasping the nature of inorganic consciousness without biological attributes."

You mean "emergent" phenomena. You use the terms "inorganic consciousness" and "biological consciousness," which I do not use myself, I understand however where your concern lies.

Firstly, you will remember the perspective of Bohm's quantal consciousness, which we must consider as "the ability to monitor and to react to environment." This Bohm, and I, quote as primary example of consciousness, and understand to lie in a continuum with polar extremes. Within that range, which we may assume spans modes of consciousness ranging from those applicable to (classically) irreducible, quantised entities (such as the electron,) to the entire cosmic aggregate, we have the entire universal ontology - Let's call that the UO. This UO has conventionally been divided into two domains, the organic and inorganic, living and non-living, with a rather precipitous divide separating these. However, this I posit to be a scholastic division that works well at school-level but is truly a simplistic approximation. I will not treat the many examples that I expound on in The Nature of Being to support this, here. Instead of such a radically sub-divided domain I see a single continuum with multiple phase transitions of organic complexity, or "organicity." There is in this sense (as we see quantal entities such as the electron already possessing modes of consciousness) nothing which is not conscious or has a level of life, living, and organicity. This more holistic view does not negate the subdivided domain perspective, but includes it in a higher view. If we were to draw a simplified graph of organicity (organic complexity) we would no longer see a jumpily reducing magnitude that suddenly falls over a precipice to zero at some identified level, at a particular "species," "taxon," complex, macromolecular organisation, etc., but instead, after a considerable drop, reduces asymptotically to zero over the remaining range. In this perspective, the entire UO is seen as a continuum of organicity, containing a multitude of species, all marked by "environmentally reactive and self-reorganisational consciousness."

It is useful in this context to see the concept of individual "design intentions" which, effectively, amount to the aggregate functionality of subjectifiable entities - each in their "class" has a unique ability to monitor bands of environmental stimuli (which amount to trans-species languages,) to interpret these, and a unique ability for stimulus-reactive self-reorganisation. These potentials for self-reorganisation, in their characteristic levels of consciousness, may be seen to graphically correspond roughly to the "jumpy graph" in the continuum of organicity.

In the well-known non-linearity that occurs at phase-transitions of complexity (read: organicity) we will notice newly emergent functionalities in both sensing environmental stimuli (the sensor complement of subjectifiable entities) and their potential for self-reorganisation. I call this phenomenon Accumulative Non-Linear Synergy (ANLIS - FV © ). Evidence for this exists taxonomically and phylogenetically in the well-researched and accepted phenomenon of integrated, inherited nuclear genomic material from precursive taxons: e.g. mitochondrial DNA, which is unique and only maternally inherited. I will not go into all detail here (also see previous posts re this topic) as there are many species examples and the treatment is extensive. Fact is, that colonial co-evolution, and also long-term phagocytosis, of prokaryotic autotrophs by heterotrophic eukaryotes, can lead to co-adaptive endosymbiosis - for example, the chloroplasts in plants were a separate species that by endosymbiotic integration became part of a more evolved species, both gaining.

We must not fall into the conflation of regarding highly sophisticated organic entities as just being the sum-total of their hierarchically organised constituents - it's not that simple. Physical matter is the physicalisation, (on an E = MC^2 axis) of the organisation of energy - similarly, there is another axis which I call the O = j.Psi axis, j being a trans-dimensional operator, Psi, the common symbol for consciousness, and O for organicity. This characterises the morphogenetic-field potential of quantising consciousness, which has been empirically proven to be a non-local, superluminally propagating, syntactically organisational field (do excuse the complexity, there is little other way to express it) by the Gariaev Group and others. (See previous articles for detail of this.)

In the scientific perspective, we see hierarchical complexity in cosmic nucleosynthesis, moleculosynthesis, followed by the remainder of increasing complexity in the continuum of organicity. From a psychodynamic perspective, we may see a concomitant quantisation of quantising simplexes, drops out of the singular ocean, each conscious - passing through dynamic, transient episodes (a reincarnative principle), returning their quantised individuality to the quantal ocean. Their taxonomic "experience" is however trans-dimensionally recorded as explorative precedent (equivalent to the "Akashic Records") and establishes a first-instance action-template for future behavioural potential. You can see this same eternal principle operating on all levels of universal ontology, including our own.

Thank you for the intelligent question, and I hope I have managed to answer it to your satisfation, and given you some more food for thought.

Frank Valentyn
bobart
I believe my spelling and sarcasm are becoming increasingly whorendous.This is challenging for me, but I will dive in and dog paddle.I may have to not wait for the movie to come out and go ahead and buy the book. I have long been puzzled and distressed by mankind as an entity, often the self-abusive sadist whose religion becomes a parasitic institution, or when dominant, an oppressive one. This is a cruel joke with no excuses. "You shall know the tree by its fruit." At the same time, I fail to understand how empowering humanity with intellect could be like giving a monkey a gun. Thank you, Frank, for these puzzle pieces to tinker with. I regret I have not been able to respond in kind.
mikmik
QUOTE
Quote: "And stealing the words of Volataire et al..." (sic) - Dizzymix

Then below that - Oscar Wilde: "Arguments are to be avoided: they are always vulgar and often convincing."
No, I do not use my quote to pretend it is anything other than his.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Quote: "And stealing the words of Volataire et al..." (sic) - Dizzymix

Then below that - Oscar Wilde: "Arguments are to be avoided: they are always vulgar and often convincing."
No, I do not use my quote to pretend it is anything other than his.

2. I am not sure who "Volataire" was - Is the name derived from the Latin "Volare" - "to fly" and "aire" - "He who flies in the air," or perhaps more a subconscious reflection of the writer's own psyche: "He who flies in the face of decency and integrity of intent, and bequeathes himself airs in excess of his own abilities" ?
<br>Good one! My spelling is bad, therefore my ideas are wrong.

QUOTE
3. "What kind of sentence is, (Dizzymix:) "We see from a different, even completely uneducated in that 'field', perspective as compared to the writer." ??? And then, (Dizzymix) "That is what counts, it appears, is avoiding the truth." Heavens, if this qualifies as language, then indeed not just spelling, but also syntax, and intended meaning, are "optional." If this is the language exemplifying the excellence demanded from those whom this entity criticises, then Shakespeare, Socrates, and Einstein would urgently need to go back to school.
<br>We see from a different perspective from the wirer. I told you already, that we do not share the same context of your words, yours is from your experience, yet you expect, me at least, to be capable of understanding any allusion or reference you make. Furthermore, you condescend when replying to insinuated a weakness on your part, pretending impatience, but not showing understanding.

This is a purely evasive approach by you, you fail to take responsibility for your own possible inconsistencies by trying to focus on my implied weakness instead of addressing my point.

In is hilarious to see the pot calling the kettle black.

I also note, you are still entirely avoiding the majority of my criticisms.

Why don't you ask Tom Cruise for a hand?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
3. "What kind of sentence is, (Dizzymix:) "We see from a different, even completely uneducated in that 'field', perspective as compared to the writer." ??? And then, (Dizzymix) "That is what counts, it appears, is avoiding the truth." Heavens, if this qualifies as language, then indeed not just spelling, but also syntax, and intended meaning, are "optional." If this is the language exemplifying the excellence demanded from those whom this entity criticises, then Shakespeare, Socrates, and Einstein would urgently need to go back to school.
<br>We see from a different perspective from the wirer. I told you already, that we do not share the same context of your words, yours is from your experience, yet you expect, me at least, to be capable of understanding any allusion or reference you make. Furthermore, you condescend when replying to insinuated a weakness on your part, pretending impatience, but not showing understanding.

This is a purely evasive approach by you, you fail to take responsibility for your own possible inconsistencies by trying to focus on my implied weakness instead of addressing my point.

In is hilarious to see the pot calling the kettle black.

I also note, you are still entirely avoiding the majority of my criticisms.

Why don't you ask Tom Cruise for a hand?

If this is the language exemplifying the excellence demanded from those whom this entity criticises, then Shakespeare, Socrates, and Einstein would urgently need to go back to school.
<span style='color:blue'>See? You did it again! Just like with Voltaire! You try to associate yourself with Einstein, Socrates, and Shakespeare!. You are not in their class, and you are a pretender. You have no credentials such as great men like them, you dirty their names by assuming yourself like them in any way. I understand them no problem, you are the one who is full of it!

You get accused by me, then you validate my arguments in your rebuttals! You are just as bad as any fanatic I go against, that all reasonable people bang their heads against the wall against.

Thanks for illuminating my arguments yet another time.


QUOTE
My deliberately truncated phrasing was: "The only thing that counts, and should count, to my mind, is authentic truth. That statement can be conflated in a myriad ways.."
Of course he did, as very confidently predicted, which is why I constructed the relation exactly that way. Not just this, but it proves once again the artificed distortion, deliberate mis-quotation, false contrast and personal value judgement taking the place of propositional construct that is this entity's forte and metier.
<br>I have no idea what you are talking about here, I know what you said and meant, I just disagreed and called you on it. There is no misunderstanding on my part, it is on your, obviously.

For all your supposed brilliance, and my supposed lack of abilities that somehow translates to inability in your feeble reasoning, you sure don't exercise much understanding, or show you are capable of direct argument.

One 'slip' (hook, line, and sinker, Frank) and suddenly you decide to respond with a quotation and rebuttal to my words. Does this mean you do not have replies to my other myriad points?

One can only conclude, yes.

You are boorish out of all comparison to any 'improper language' on my part, and I maintain you are a schoolgirl with thin skin who engages in name calling, not in addition to, but instead of, argument, when you are wrong. You engage in name calling in every single response to me, and i don't care, just answer the questions.

Start with "The sadness of the non-evolutionary viewpoint" by addressing why you think ANY VIEWPOINT has a value of good or bad, happy or sad.

It is only when you explain your right bear judgment that you may decide it is sad.

It is different, and in my opinion the non evolutionary viewpoint is lacking and missing something, but that is to deny that others may have just as profound experience from their viewpoint and understanding, as any other.

You fail to address this simple tenet throughout, and you presume superior viewpoint as a result. This is the grave insult I argue against on everyones behalf, or seeing they never elected me to speak for them, on the behalf of accuracy and logic.


It is your primary thesis in every word you write, that if we do not play along and 'relate' on your version of what is the proper level of intellect and education and propriety, that you are superior.
You demonstrate this with words like "Sadness" and many other turns of meaningless (in my arguments) phrase that appear deep, but are nonetheless garbage.

You defend your phraseology as necessary when be hing obtuseness you hide flaws, not truth.

Tell me then, how do you suppose to a more profound experience in life? Is this not what you mean by 'sadness'? Less profound?

If you say 'less true', then I will slay you in the court of reason.


There is no problem with my ability to understand your words, Frankie be-be.

And if you have difficulty with the meaning and context of MY WORDS, I suggest to you that I am far more than you understand, and I am also capable of writing convoluted, interdependent and weaving self referencing and alluding, metaphorical, unnecessarily pedantic idealogical proselytism and promulgation as it were exposed in my pragmatically stentorious orotundic and atmospherically advantaged predilection.
mikmik
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Yeah, right. There are so many sites on cognitive disorder that I do not even have to bother wondering any more about you. Like I said, you are text-book, and you write like new-age fairies, not Greek philosophers, humanists, and physicist. I Understand their language easily and effortlessly.

Go read 'Ideas and Opinions' (collection of A.E. letters).

Better yet, for an example of how to write, read some Michael Lockwood. He explains th meaning of every word, and attacks his own arguments from every angle, and compares all his ideas to writing and thoughts that have come before, comparing for originality, similarity, and making sure to not take credit when it is not his.

That is writing, Francine, you make me ill and I cannot bother with you any more. I am greatly disappointed in your lack of integrity, and If a uncouth little punk like me can blast holes in your arguments, intentions, and approach, then you are in sad, sad shape.

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My favourite book ever: Mind, Brain, and the Quantum
QUOTE
Synopsis
This work presents a radically new approach to the mind-body problem, drawing together consideratons from such fields as the philosophy of mind, cognitive science, neurophysiology, relativity and quantum mechanics. The very existence of consciousness, the author argues, poses a challenge to the traditional view of matter, as do the paradoxes of quantum theory. If mind as revealed in introspection, matter as manifested in observation and experiment, are to be seen as dual aspects of a unitary underlying reality, then a fundamental adjustment is called for in our understanding of mental and physical phenomena alike. The book demonstrates the need for a conception that is rooted both in the latest thinking about the foundations of quantum mechanics and in some previously neglected ideas of Bertrand Russell. Its implications are far-reaching and startlingly at odds with the conventional way of looking at the world and at the place of mind within it.
Also, Bertrand Russell is my favourite philosopher, he writes complex interconnected statements, and they make sense. Why don't you go read 'A Free mans worship' for a far superior discourse on your petty little idea of 'one view'.
Words that contain depth and meaning. Yours do not, you are a fraud.

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Learning hath made these men mad!
To find yourself, lose yourself in the work for others.
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