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Tachyon8491
Being and Synthesis

As eternal, infinite, and conscious being, it is believed to be the subject, rather than the object, of thought. As the Absolute of all things known, it is incapable of being characterized or circumscribed by any one thing, or even by the totality of things.

What is this? It is a reference to Brahman - divine cosmic power.

In the sacred Brahmanas and Upanishads, Brahman describes the first cause of the universe, and designates the impersonal principle. 1

It was in approximately 1100 that the Hindu ascetic Ramanuja, proposed a qualified monism, seeing Brahman as personal deity in distinction to individuality and the individual soul. The personification of the impersonal to the personal is not a contradiction as might be suspected, Although Brahman had not been seen this way before, instead it is dependent on a directed focus: the all, universum, stands in impersonal objectivity to the singular and individual, whereas the latter stands in personal relation to the all.
Shankara (788-820,) originator of Advaita Vedanta, preceding Ramanuja, believed that the individual soul, atman, was fundamentally identical with the universal being, Brahman, where instead, individualised consciousness identified with maya, the illusionary aspect, of samsara, the continual natural arising of things, and could not realise the oneness with the single ultimate because of ignorance, avidhya. This ignorance is effectively described as “a type of mental hallucination.” 2 The idea therefore, that self-aware “I-ness” is separate from the underlying single All, is a phase of interpretation and being which can be transcended, not just in theoretical recognition, but actuality, in progressive states of enlightenment.

The concept that the Absolute is incapable of being characterized or circumscribed by any one thing, or even by the totality of things, amounts to inattributability - the inapplicable concept of identifying symptomatic attributes, or for that matter, allocating such attributes. Brahman is regarded as an all-pervading, timeless, undifferentiated and transcendent state of being which is pragmatically indescribable.

The concept of Brahman supports my own thesis which proposes that universal ontogeny resulted from quantisation of an indivisible, singular, inattributable infinite via various phase transitions of reintegrative evolutionary synthesis, parallel to the concept of Brahman. Although this thesis does not specifically identify theocentrically or secularly with it, it recognises common principle, but is expounded in the light of pragmatic scientific research as well as deep spiritual dynamics and empirically supported inductive modelling.

Attribution is a process of allocating symptomatic characteristics. When we see a flower, we may describe it as e.g. either staminate or pistillate or monoecious, define it as having determinate or indeterminate florescences, further go on to say that is has composite flowers, e.g. in this case purple, and give it its name, Ageratum houstonianum - we can even write a 100-page descriptive booklet on it. Fundamentally, this is a process of seeing, and describing things in terms of other things. More pertinently, a thing, any thing, takes on meaning only in terms of other things. The more its relationships and interactivity with all non-thing are perceived, and understood, the more defined it becomes, seen for what it is, and authentic meaning it has.

Such characteristics can of course be deductively derived from an internalised frame of reference, a neurologically embedded world-model, weltblick, comprising elements describing both sensorally, and psychodynamically perceivable reality, and reallocated attributively to a subject entity. What is important to realise is that in the perception of a unitary ontological entity, attributional elements may be allocated in a process of cognitive approximation, “recognition,” with correlation to perceptual elements of an internalised reference matrix, or alternatively, projectively allocated.

Elements of the internalised reference matrix are experientially, dynamically updated and, in higher hierarchical holographic integrations, accurise each other mutually - the reference matrix and elements of it therefore perform a perceptual-cognitive filtering action. Projective attributional allocation is synthetic, a coarser instance of what we usually would mean by first approximation in a process of perceptual recognition - for example, in the prediction of a new “fundamental” particle the existence of which is strongly suspected, several attributes may be inductively allocated which can not yet be empirically proven. Things, or unitary ontological entities, may not even be recognisable if there are no reasonably well-integrated perceptual-cognitive analogs in the reference matrix – oft- quoted examples are the first-instance interpretations of highly advanced technological objects by aboriginals who have not had previous exposure to these. Both around the African and South American coasts, early explorers' sailing ships were recognised as “clouds.” In more modern context, aircraft may be recognised as “enormous birds.” Rifles might be called “thundersticks.” The cognitive processing with its concomitant perceptual phenomenon may well have a bearing on interpreting the actual causative stimuli associated with the UFO phenomenon and what is “seen.” Underlying this is a perceptual-cognitive process of associating elements of the unknown with elements of the known and interpreting the unknown in terms of the known. In psychoneuroimmunology, PNI, it is well-understood that the entire perceptual-cognitive reference matrix has an essential holographic nature consisting of fractal elements of perception (FEPs – FV) which in their higher integrations allow a neurologically embedded modelling reference of perceived reality of both self, and non-self, this being biased deterministically by a preliminary genetic determinant, and a consequent dynamic experiential updating. There is very much to say about this from the viewpoint of morphogenetic embryogenesis and preliminary cerebral neurigenesis with the synaptic programming and massive neural resorption that takes place – this is however beyond the scope of this concise article and treated in great detail in my book The Nature of Being © FV. One important perspective is that the post-partum neurological model is not a tabula rasa but has preliminary deterministic modelling present, that this is seminally influenced by the early nurturing period, and progressively becomes more autonomously programmed by a process of continual choice of alternatives, in inclination, action, and interpretation.

This process is also the basis of anthropomorphisation - allocating human attributes to the non-human, or interpreting the non-human in terms of human characteristics. Encyclopaedic entries will tell us that “mythology concerns itself exclusively with anthropomorphic gods.” When perceiving attributes of already personified forces, it is, for many, extremely difficult, if not impossible, to refrain from anthropomorphisation - the human attribution cognitively-emotionally involved in this process is one that mediates and catalyses personal identification. Both Vth Century Greek philosophers Plato and Xenophanes observed that gods worshipped in a particular geographical area were attributed racial and other human characteristics particular to those areas. Both were critical of this inclination and condemned it, Xenophanes observing that the “recognised” attributes of the gods told more about those humans whose gods they were than they revealed about the divine itself. Plato specifically protested attributing human failings to the gods - it is interesting to conjecture whether in a more enlightened context, divinely issued commands towards the destruction of individual beings, other tribes or entire nations should be regarded as “failings.” Both Plato and Xenophanes had an ambition to purify religion in abolishing what they regarded as a crude and primitive process of divine anthropomorphisation.

Allied to the Brahmanic Absolute concept, are the personified dynamics of creation, preservation and destruction (incidentally also identifiable as anabolic, homeostatic and catabolic processes) in an indivisible synthesis of trinity, the Trimurti: respectively Brahma as creator, Vishnu as preserver and Shiva as destroyer. The concept of the Egyptian trinitarian ennead, a sacred father, mother, and son, is probably at least as ancient, and both vastly precede the idea of the Christian trinity. 3 Translating into analogy, this ennead may also be seen as the interweaving of Yin and Yang, the feminine and masculine principle, and their product.

In identifying a very specific ontological item, the more qualifying attributes allocated to it, the greater unique identification becomes. We can also see this process in the explorative focussing in on highly specific ontological entities: the more accurately we can identify its phenomenon in terms of other phenomena, the more positive its identification becomes. We can see this relationship roughly as a triangle lying on its side, the broad base representing the spectral range of allocated attributes, and the vertex pointing to, and identifying the subjectified ontological entity, as the focal target of this attribution. Conversely, there is another triangle superimposed on the first, reversed, the vertex of each touching the base of the other - this models the phenomenon that the greater a common class of ontological items is that we refer to, the fewer common attributional elements will apply to each of its constituent items - in other words, the effectively descriptive attributional set tends to shrink. We can see this in simple operation in a description of, for example, Homo sapiens, in the identification of which we could write an entire encyclopaedia, compared with the necessary description of Animalia, (which includes Homo) of which we might say that they are “multicellular organisms obtaining energy by eating food.” In comparison, an encyclopaedic entry on Homo sapiens states: “Homo sapiens is identified, for purposes of classification, as an animal (kingdom Animalia) with a backbone (phylum Chordata) and segmented spinal cord (subphylum Vertebrata) that suckles its young (class Mammalia); that gestates its young with the aid of a placenta (subclass Eutheria); that is equipped with five-digited extremities, a collarbone, and a single pair of mammary glands on the chest (order Primates); and that has eyes at the front of the head, stereoscopic vision, and a proportionately large brain (suborder Anthropoidea). 4 A somewhat fatuous attempt at falsifying this valuable conceptual perspective is to think that one could rather easily write a bigger encyclopaedia about “Animalia” than about “Homo sapiens,” surely. This would substantially miss the point - it concerns minimum attributional sets which allow effective differentiation from what would otherwise include unwanted entity elements in the same class. As another example we might use the attributional complex SiO2 (Silicon dioxide), then successively focus attributionally in on: “geologically natural SiO2 (this attributional vertex now identifies “quartz”); add to it the complex, “translucent, microcrystalline grey-blue chalcedony alternating with opaque non-crystalline white opaline bands,” and the vertex of this identifies banded agate. We become aware in this process that attributional qualifiers also have a holographic aspect: they share large integrated complexes of fractal attributional elements common to them. An unbounded, limitless attributional qualifier would therefore contain a limitless number of integrated attributional/perceptional elements. In the avoidance of anthropomorphisation and imposing a bounding definition on the divine conferred by attribution, the ultimate perception of the divine is non-attributional. For those practising forms of transcendental meditation, this may be an incidental opening mantra. 5

The divine is of course just that, divine – remaining is the endless attribution of this infinite and sacred word, what it is that you understand by it. Plato and Xenophanes suggest that this should not be based on, or expanded by simplistic anthropocentric definition, in anthropomorphisation. Well, what is the alternative – it is perhaps that you should start thinking for yourself instead of letting others do the thinking for you. Of course, that extreme arrogance, as no doubt some would interpret it, is actually meant in all possible humbleness.

Frank Valentyn





Endnotes

1. Sacred Sanskrit literature of the Vedic Period, ~ 1500 - 200 BPE

2. This occurs in Alan Clements' book, Instinct for Freedom, where the Burmese monk Mahasi Sayadaw, visiting New York, mentions, “Ignorance is a type of mental hallucination.” Clements, Alan; Instinct for Freedom; subtitled “Finding Liberation through Living” ; publ. New World Library, Novato, California (2002) ISBN 1-57731-212-0; p33

3. Peake's Commentary on the Bible states:
“The famous interpolation after ‘three witnesses’ is not printed even in RSVn, and rightly. It cites the heavenly testimony of the Father, the logos, and the Holy Spirit, but is never used in the early Trinitarian controversies. No respectable Greek MS contains it. Appearing first in a late 4th-cent. Latin text, it entered the Vulgate and finally the NT of Erasmus.”

4. Encarta Electronic Encyclopaedia (2003) Entry under Homo sapiens; human

5. Mantra, Sanskrit: “Instrument of thought”
Mandy66
Mikmik deary, your are the funniest! Go put on your lipstick and celebrate! Your "arguments" and "propositions" are based on value judgments and personal taste and your language is completely horrific - it's so clear to everybody that what really counts here is your personal animosity towards Tachyon, and that no "technique" is low enough for you - sheesh, everyone can see the indignant froth on your lips!

He's right, if you had some culture and class, and according to your own admission "what can I expect when I'm abusive", if you used a civil approach like others on this thread you might not get the reaction you do. But then it appears you were specially "created" and in that case sweety, there is of course no possibility for you to evolve a little more. laugh.gif
Tachyon8491
I would like to refer readers to editorial in Scienceweek regarding their stance towards the unfortunate polarisation between evolutionary mechanisms and creationism: Creationism versus Sanity This also substantiates my deep sadness with regard to the non-evolutionary view. I do however, as I repeatedly offer, believe that this polarisation, much as that is tenaciously opposed by fundamentalists, is resolvable in a higher, more holistic perspective.

With regard to the repeated mention of Morphogenetic Fields in my articles and the evidence that exists for them, here are some excellent sites presenting perspective, thorough scientific research and incontrovertible fact.

For the most Complete Refutation of Creationist Claims comprising literally hundreds of well-indexed and searchable scientific analyses, I have not found a better source of effective disproofs.

Take into account here, that I fundamentally oppose simplistic conventional creationism - not the principle of evolutive creation or creative evolution, which when taken to its primary ontogenetic origins does not deny, but strongly confirms a deeper percept of creation.

FV
mikmik


Mandy66, you said
QUOTE
Mikmik deary, your are the funniest! Go put on your lipstick and celebrate! Your "arguments" and "propositions" are based on value judgments and personal taste and your language is completely horrific
<br>Sure, but you can give me some examplea, and I will believe you, otherwise isn't that exactly what this quote is from you - based on value judgments and personal taste?

Anyways, who cares anymore. I hit a nerve, it appears, or I wouldn't recive such an effort of character assisination, poetry yet!.

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Mikmik deary, your are the funniest! Go put on your lipstick and celebrate! Your "arguments" and "propositions" are based on value judgments and personal taste and your language is completely horrific
<br>Sure, but you can give me some examplea, and I will believe you, otherwise isn't that exactly what this quote is from you - based on value judgments and personal taste?

Anyways, who cares anymore. I hit a nerve, it appears, or I wouldn't recive such an effort of character assisination, poetry yet!.

With regard to the repeated mention of Morphogenetic Fields in my articles and the evidence that exists for them, here are some excellent sites presenting perspective, thorough scientific research and incontrovertible fact.
<br>Morphogenic fields.
Irrefutable scientific evidence.

I rest my case, and look for signs of inteligence elsewhere.

C-ya!
Elektra55
Ahem... did I hear you complaining about "character assassination" mik mik? You seem to be the true expert in that area!

I suppose your value judgments are reeeeally far in advance of other's value judgments, and your personal taste is leaps beyond hmm?

Doubtlessly you've also looked up the URL on morphogenetic fields Tachyon gave and seriously perused and studied that before rejecting the impeccable science there out of hand eh? That's Princeton University you casually shot down in flames there - but of course, you're a better scientist than all the Ph.D's there, and after all, that's not a value judgement, uh, uhm, right?

Funny, you didn't make a single mention of the ref to the Complete Refutation of Creationist Claims - too scared to mention it in case that might get people to take a little peep, just a teensy look-see, and prove what a fool you are?

You're absolutely right though, in your case, standing in front of the bathroom mirror, I'd also look for signs of intelligence elsewhere.

El
Mandrake
QUOTE
mikmik: You defend your phraseology as necessary when be hing obtuseness you hide flaws, not truth.


Wow, uhm, and then he says:

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
mikmik: You defend your phraseology as necessary when be hing obtuseness you hide flaws, not truth.


Wow, uhm, and then he says:

mikmik: And if you have difficulty with the meaning and context of MY WORDS, I suggest to you that I am far more than you understand

That must be some record in both ego and limitlessly stoopid?

Tachyon8491
In the Complete Refutation of Creationist Claims, appears claim CA041:

"Students should be taught all sides of a controversial issue. Evolution should not be taught without teaching the controversy that surrounds it."

Source:
Meyer, Stephen C., Teach the controversy on origins. Cincinnati Enquirer, 30 March, 2002

With the effective response:

Response
1. On the fundamental issues of the theory of evolution, such as the facts of common descent and natural selection, there is no scientific controversy. The "teach the controversy" campaign is an attempt to get pseudoscience taught in classrooms. Lessons about the sociological issues of the evolution-creation controversy may be appropriate in history or other nonscience classes.

If the object is to keep bad science from the classroom, the same standards should be applied to the counterarguments from creationists, which are all bad science.


2. There are controversies over details of evolutionary theory, such as the relative contributions of sympatric versus allopatric speciation. These controversies require a great deal of background in biology even to understand what they are about. They should not be taught to beginning students. They should be taught to graduate-level students in biology, and they are.

Endquote

The fundamental issues referred to, common descent and natural selection, but also speciation dynamics, anagenesis, cladogenesis, punctuated equilibrium, homology, convergence, vestigialism and embryonic recapitulation among others, could easily be taught at school-level while fully maintaining a sense of wonder and a sense of the divine.

I reiterate here that I am only opposed to the entrenched dogma of "conventional," simplistic creationism, but that I fully believe in evolutive creation, or creative evolution, which do not negate, but confirm a deeper, more holistic and inclusive percept of creation.

FV
mikmik
Elektsa
QUOTE
I suppose your value judgments are reeeeally far in advance of other's value judgments, and your personal taste is leaps beyond hmm?

Doubtlessly you've also looked up the URL on morphogenetic fields Tachyon gave and seriously perused and studied that before rejecting the impeccable science there out of hand eh? That's Princeton University you casually shot down in flames there - but of course, you're a better scientist than all the Ph.D's there, and after all, that's not a value judgement, uh, uhm, right?
<br>Uhm, yes, I did look.

You can render all the character evaluations you want, but unless they are acomanied with some reasoning, then it is just noise.

I have said already, elektra dear, that I don't care about name calling, it is the validity of your arguements that matter. I, in fact, wholeheartedly agree with any observation that I am judgemental and opinionated and crude and crass. So what?

I know already, I have already taken responsibility for it, and yet people keep 'reminding' me!

Who is with it here, people.
Mandrake, I am glad you apreciate the irony of my remarks. Maybe you will soon learn to understand satire?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I suppose your value judgments are reeeeally far in advance of other's value judgments, and your personal taste is leaps beyond hmm?

Doubtlessly you've also looked up the URL on morphogenetic fields Tachyon gave and seriously perused and studied that before rejecting the impeccable science there out of hand eh? That's Princeton University you casually shot down in flames there - but of course, you're a better scientist than all the Ph.D's there, and after all, that's not a value judgement, uh, uhm, right?
<br>Uhm, yes, I did look.

You can render all the character evaluations you want, but unless they are acomanied with some reasoning, then it is just noise.

I have said already, elektra dear, that I don't care about name calling, it is the validity of your arguements that matter. I, in fact, wholeheartedly agree with any observation that I am judgemental and opinionated and crude and crass. So what?

I know already, I have already taken responsibility for it, and yet people keep 'reminding' me!

Who is with it here, people.
Mandrake, I am glad you apreciate the irony of my remarks. Maybe you will soon learn to understand satire?

That's Princeton University you casually shot down in flames there - but of course, you're a better scientist than all the Ph.D's there, and after all, that's not a value judgement, uh, uhm, right?
<br>Elektra, are you not aware of the 'arguement from authority' fallacy? What of the fellows at the Royal Academy of astrophysics who denounce, not only His ideas, but the completely improper presentation. This is a sign of psuedo-science. I have provided plenty of links.

I do not care if you call me judgemental or anything. I welcome it. But I continue to point out that if that is all you have to offer, of other cognitively distorted parlance, and logical fallacy if indeed any argument at all accompanies you diatribe, I see it not.



This is simple stuff, people.

Here,fill your boot. Please provide arguement or make reference to relevent passages when you rebut my inconsistencies, or your words are hollow

Critical Thinking Mini-Lessons
QUOTE
Critical Thinking Mini-Lessons
Induction and Deduction
The Concept of Validity
The Wason Card Problem
The Wason Card Problem, Part II
Fallacies
Replication of Studies
Fallacy of Suppressed Evidence
Replication Revisited
The Straw Man Fallacy
further reading

A Practical Guide to Critical Thinking by Greg R. Haskins. A concise (14 page)  introduction to critical thinking, intended as a handy tool to help anyone develop sound reasoning and arguments, or to evaluate the validity of any claim, based on The Skeptic's Dictionary and Becoming a Critical Thinker.

Chapter One, Critical Thinking, from the second edition of my Becoming a Critical Thinker (due out in spring 2005).

Bad Moves. Bad Moves is a fortnightly series by philosopher Julian Baggini detailing the various ways in which arguments or points are made badly, but often persuasively. Julian Baggini is editor of The Philosophers' Magazine.

<br>If you wish to discount the credibility of Julian Baggini, or any of his arguments and lessons, or anyone elses, please, do so at once.

This is not to show anything but that I endeavour to learn from these pages. Anything I say, no matter where I say I got it from, is still open (of course! LOL) to scrutiny on its own merits, as are everyone elses words here at this forum.
mikmik
Exercise number 1.

Can the class point out the fallacious argument and presentation that renders this statement invalid of worth?
QUOTE
Doubtlessly you've also looked up the URL on morphogenetic fields Tachyon gave and seriously perused and studied that before rejecting the impeccable science there out of hand eh?
<br>Hey, Bonus points for this one!
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Doubtlessly you've also looked up the URL on morphogenetic fields Tachyon gave and seriously perused and studied that before rejecting the impeccable science there out of hand eh?
<br>Hey, Bonus points for this one!Funny, you didn't make a single mention of the ref to the Complete Refutation of Creationist Claims - too scared to mention it in case that might get people to take a little peep, just a teensy look-see, and prove what a fool you are?
<br>
QUOTE
You're absolutely right though, in your case, standing in front of the bathroom mirror, I'd also look for signs of intelligence elsewhere.

Thanks, Elektra! Imitation is the highest form of flattery! You can use my words any time (blush) wink.gif

Mandrake
Funny, mikmik: "What of the fellows at the Royal Academy of astrophysics who denounce, not only His ideas, but the completely improper presentation."

This you use as counter to Princeton Univ. Ph.Ds which is of course not an appeal to authority as you so blatantly condemn, again and again and again - what counts of course pal, is what you'd rather believe, and that, but of course, is not a value judgment on your part hey. Here's a value judgment on mine: you're subjective, and as many others have pointed out, full of toxin. God loves you mate, you need it, hopefully it may one day awaken some objectivity and manners in you.
mikmik
still?
Me:
QUOTE
I have said already, elektra dear, that I don't care about name calling, it is the validity of your arguements that matter. I, in fact, wholeheartedly agree with any observation that I am judgemental and opinionated and crude and crass. So what?
<br>Mandrake
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
I have said already, elektra dear, that I don't care about name calling, it is the validity of your arguements that matter. I, in fact, wholeheartedly agree with any observation that I am judgemental and opinionated and crude and crass. So what?
<br>Mandrake. Here's a value judgment on mine: you're subjective, and as many others have pointed out, full of toxin.
<br>You don't say!

QUOTE
This you use as counter to Princeton Univ. Ph.Ds which is of course not an appeal to authority
<b>No, I was pointing out that an authority can be found to support both sides, therefore: which one is right? It is not good enough to say anyone supports a premise, whatever it is. That is not evidence. Mine isn't, and appeal to authority isn't.

Really, I find it insulting to have words put in my mouth, just as anyone does.

BTW, I do not know if "fellows at the Royal Academy of astrophysics" disagreed, in fact I just made that up as an example "what if". Even better, the unexpected example of how people will believe anything you write if it sounds knowledgeable, and this makes appeal to authority even more ripe for abuse. Proper presentation uses a bibliography with links and references to all outside resources and quoted supporting documentation. That is science, BTW.

AKA, you are wrong in your interpretation, Mandrake.

Thank you for addressing a point specifically, though smile.gif :

One more just comes to mind: While in a New Age book store and bauble market, I remember seeing the section on cosmology. There were the requisite Steven Hawking books, and other credible selections. Adds to the illusion of credibility for the others, I imagine, or people can't really tell. Most likely, the latter, sadly.

In it, there was a book written by a former dean and present fellow, something like that. His book proposed an alternate explanation of gravitation, one that relied on countless undiscovered particles traversing space in all directions equally. I could see immediately that his 'math' was wrong, and it was a lesson to me about how even learned and successful people can succumb to irrationality.

That was in 1992, and I do not see it mentioned anywhere. I would think it is just another rip-off of the gullible for book sales income.

I hope I've made my point, and I hope you realize that the 'irrefutable evidence' (LOL) stands in complete refute without, yet again, a proper defense on your part, or anyone else.

I will say it for the umpteenth time, pointing out my apparent character flaws does not constitute an argument in defense of your contested statements, and even if I was guilty of using something you are accused of, it still does not rescues your original assertions, now questioned by me.

Do you have a problem understanding this, Mandrake, Elektra, tachyon? I can provide more resources to help you understand.
Tachyon8491
To "mikmik" whoever you are,

What I think everybody also understands well, is that in synthetically generating an artificial and totally imaginary "authority" refuting Princeton University's decades' of research in the effects of human intentionality in morphogenetic fields in the Gobal Consciousness Project, which as I think anyone familiar with proper scientific methodology will agree cannot be easily dismissed and is supported by massively convincing evidence, you, have:

1. Not managed to affect, refute or academically criticise, or falsify any of Princeton's conclusions.

2. In fatuously claiming that morphogenetic fields are complete and utter nonsense, commented on further with deprecatory noise and ad hominem reflections on me and attempts to influence readership with this approach of meaningless nonsense, also not managed to refute any claim of mine with respect to morphogenetic fields, or of any articles or propositions of mine with what conclusively proves purely antagonistic assassination attempt without any honour or integrity.

3. In your repeated attempts at "disproof by making ridiculous" you have not once succeeded in disproving anything at all. Neither is a claim that not defending propositions in a theory against any such fatuous attempt constitutes disproof of any kind. An alleged claim that authority can be found to support both sides of an argument does not constitute disproof of any kind in itself either and is the emptiest statement. The fact that the Taleban supports total banning of male physicians from attending female patients in emergencies does not constitute proof that Western society's alternative philosophy in this is wrong despite the manic fanaticism of dogma supporting such claims. In like manner, any inclination to counter you is purely a waste of breath and time.

4. Not once have you analysed any proposition with proper academic approach towards attempted refutation or falsification except in quoting reams of your own personally subjective, value-judged sources' words. Difference in taste does not constitute refutation. De gustibus non disputandum.

The predominance of your attempt at argument is based on invoking alternative and contrasting sources claimed to constitute "authority" based on your own personal value-judged favouritism despite ceaselessly condemning per autoritatem claims wherever you see or artificially manufacture that opportunity. In that, your bottomless hypocrisy stands carved in stone.

5. Post of yours is regularly removed or strongly edited by the administration of this site to remove your uncontrolled swearing and unacceptable foul language - yet in your tenacious mania to ridicule without real disproof, empty allegation and character assassination, the message contained in this does not get through to you. You have also been noticed to then re-edit such admin-edited posts to remove evidence of the implied censure and that your approach does not meet approval from the highest authority on this site.

6. Rational people will realise fully that it is futile and a waste of time to "defend" propositions of any kind whatsoever against certain types of artificed claim and personal assassination procedure: to defend proposition that women should not be mass-raped by order of religionistic councils, against "refutations" of council members of Pakistan's karo kari courts that women should be publically mass-raped as stand-in punishment for the unproven crimes of their male siblings, will simply meet with further tenacious value-based fanaticism.

7. I have repeatedly stated that I will not deign to tread where I will have to wipe my shoe, that being in your approach, method, the manner of your propositional constructs and your heinous character. Again I wish you two salient words, and they are most certainly not Bon Voyage.

FV
mikmik
QUOTE
1. Not managed to affect, refute or academically criticise, or falsify any of Princeton's conclusions.

2. In fatuously claiming that morphogenetic fields are complete and utter nonsense, commented on further with deprecatory noise and ad hominem reflections on me and attempts to influence readership with this approach of meaningless nonsense, also not managed to refute any claim of mine with respect to morphogenetic fields, or of any articles or propositions of mine with what conclusively proves purely antagonistic assassination attempt without any honour or integrity.

<br>You mean this?
Morphogenic fields.
Irrefutable scientific evidence.

I rest my case, and look for signs of inteligence elsewhere.


It has lots of meaning, believe me. No scientist would use the term 'irrefutable evidence', now, would they?
Morphogenic fields are long since debunked.
It is painfully obvious, Frank, that is why I didn't elaborate or provide example. However, your point is taken.

Glad you addressed a point specifically, though!

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QUOTE (->
QUOTE
1. Not managed to affect, refute or academically criticise, or falsify any of Princeton's conclusions.

2. In fatuously claiming that morphogenetic fields are complete and utter nonsense, commented on further with deprecatory noise and ad hominem reflections on me and attempts to influence readership with this approach of meaningless nonsense, also not managed to refute any claim of mine with respect to morphogenetic fields, or of any articles or propositions of mine with what conclusively proves purely antagonistic assassination attempt without any honour or integrity.
<br>You mean this?
Morphogenic fields.
Irrefutable scientific evidence.

I rest my case, and look for signs of inteligence elsewhere.


It has lots of meaning, believe me. No scientist would use the term 'irrefutable evidence', now, would they?
Morphogenic fields are long since debunked.
It is painfully obvious, Frank, that is why I didn't elaborate or provide example. However, your point is taken.

Glad you addressed a point specifically, though!

------------------
7. I have repeatedly stated that I will not deign to tread where I will have to wipe my shoe, that being in your approach, method, the manner of your propositional constructs and your heinous character. Again I wish you two salient words, and they are most certainly not Bon Voyage. You said that already!

same old same old

You say I don't merit responce, yet you respond.

And for almost all my points, you still don't give examples for your accusations. You just 'tell us' what happened, without benefit of reference to what you are talking about. In any event, you are full of venomous assumption of my motives and character.

Whatever, Tachyon, I actually could not care any less about you by now.

QUOTE
Start with "The sadness of the non-evolutionary viewpoint" by addressing why you think ANY VIEWPOINT has a value of good or bad, happy or sad.
<br>Specific enough?

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Start with "The sadness of the non-evolutionary viewpoint" by addressing why you think ANY VIEWPOINT has a value of good or bad, happy or sad.
<br>Specific enough?

There is a fundamental discordance between creationists and 'evolutionists', and that is one of approach. One supposes an answer and seeks to support that answer, and the other is a conclusion built on observations so structured to support it.

It doesn't get any more antithetical than that, Frank. It is very good, necessary in fact, to understand each other, but the implorings to do this in order to fully understand out exustense is a retread of everyone who ever wished to tell others what to think, every naive claim that someone has "The Answer" to all our problems.

You seem completely oblivious to the state of perceptions that are incongruent by thier very constructions, like digital and analog, like general relativity and quantum dynamics, like oil and water.

We all want to share in the wonder of how we see things, how we each experience the profound experience of existence and the meaning behind it.

But supposing there is a common foundation in structure, even purpose, of these myriad viewpoints - specifically the opposites of creationism and Darwinism, is misguided at best, and dangerous and naive at worst, and egocentric and opportunistic at most likely.

You talk details and mechanics but miss the primary difference that you suppose to address, that of the psychspiritual need to see things a certain way. It is a matter of common sense, not couched spiritualism.
<br>Specific enough?

These are from many days ago.

I have two words for you, and they are 'Bon Voyage'. See ya around, kiddas
mikmik
QUOTE
3. In your repeated attempts at "disproof by making ridiculous" you have not once succeeded in disproving anything at all. Neither is a claim that not defending propositions in a theory against any such fatuous attempt constitutes disproof of any kind. An alleged claim that authority can be found to support both sides of an argument does not constitute disproof of any kind in itself either and is the emptiest statement. The fact that the Taleban supports total banning of male physicians from attending female patients in emergencies does not constitute proof that Western society's alternative philosophy in this is wrong despite the manic fanaticism of dogma supporting such claims. In like manner, any inclination to counter you is purely a waste of breath and time.
<br>
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
3. In your repeated attempts at "disproof by making ridiculous" you have not once succeeded in disproving anything at all. Neither is a claim that not defending propositions in a theory against any such fatuous attempt constitutes disproof of any kind. An alleged claim that authority can be found to support both sides of an argument does not constitute disproof of any kind in itself either and is the emptiest statement. The fact that the Taleban supports total banning of male physicians from attending female patients in emergencies does not constitute proof that Western society's alternative philosophy in this is wrong despite the manic fanaticism of dogma supporting such claims. In like manner, any inclination to counter you is purely a waste of breath and time.
<br>6. Rational people will realise fully that it is futile and a waste of time to "defend" propositions of any kind whatsoever against certain types of artificed claim and personal assassination procedure: to defend proposition that women should not be mass-raped by order of religionistic councils, against "refutations" of council members of Pakistan's karo kari courts that women should be publically mass-raped as stand-in punishment for the unproven crimes of their male siblings, will simply meet with further tenacious value-based fanaticism.

<br>"Rational people will realise fully" - there's that imitation is the highest form off flattery thing again! Thanks, mate! Pretty much what I said several pages ago LOL

Yes, you are all class. You need to wipe your feet where I live. You are just such a peach!

Of course, paralelling someone to rapists and terrorists is no where near as repugnant as saying the f word, is it biggrin.gif

Here is another reminder of my specific example of what I am refering to:
QUOTE
Why is it different, not to mention "SIMPLISTIC" when "the loving personality of god" is attributed to others?


You say "the perception that cannot see dissonance as a case of consonance in a continuum, is a phase of interpretative inclination, a phase that can be transcended.", then you say "
simplistically divide indivisible continua into two disparate poles, black / white, good / evil, positive / negative, the divine and the satanic."

Not only that,but NUMBER TWO, you do not say how you reach your conclusion - "some antediluvian cerebrums would define that to be arcanely new agish, it is however also quite pure and logically derivable philosophy"

How so?????? Derive it for me, please!!!! Prove that it is logical.
<br>You say I don't, or never have, been specific, only offered my opinion! Here is 'irreffutable evidence' that you are mistaken!

Now I go, just so you won't assuage yourself with the excuse I didn't have anything in rebut. I am tired of your provinciality and lack of ability to 'expand from your original tacts and pronouncements'. I am done here.

See on another thread or two, I am sure I can approach matters in ways that will remove your excuses to avoid the weaknesses in your arguements.

Funny thing though, I have been the calmer and better behaved the last few posts, and you seem to be especially vehement. Heavan forbid I struck a nerve, eh?

So, If you will kindly respond to me question on how you derive that certain viewpoints are funadamentally happy or sad, that would be nice. We all know how you will respond anyways, so I'll see you elswhere.
mikmik
QUOTE
morphic resonance
Morphic resonance is a term coined by Rupert Sheldrake for what he thinks is "the basis of memory in nature....the idea of mysterious telepathy-type interconnections between organisms and of collective memories within species."

Sheldrake has been trained in 20th century scientific models--he has a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Cambridge University (1967)--but he prefers Goethe and 19th century vitalism. Sheldrake prefers teleological to mechanistic models of reality. Rather than spend his life, say, trying to develop a way to increase crop yields, he prefers to study and think in terms outside of the paradigms of science, i.e., inside the paradigms of the occult and the paranormal. One of his books is entitled Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home: And Other Unexplained Powers of Animals. One of his studies is on whether people can tell when someone is staring at them. (He says they can; others have been unable to duplicate his results.*) He prefers a romantic vision of the past to the bleak picture of a world run by technocrats who want to control Nature and destroy much of the environment in the process. In short, he prefers metaphysics to science, though he seems to think he can do the former but call it the latter.

'Morphic resonance' (MR) is put forth as if it were an empirical term, but it is no more empirical than L. Ron Hubbard's 'engram',  the alleged source of all mental and physical illness. The term is more on par with the Stoic's notion of the Logos or Plato's notion of the eidos  [eidos] than it is with any scientific notion of the laws of nature. What the rest of the scientific world terms lawfulness--the tendency of things to follow patterns we call laws of nature--Sheldrake calls morphic resonance. He describes it as a kind of memory in things determined not by their inherent natures, but by repetition. He also describes MR as something which is transmitted via "morphogenetic fields." This gives him a conceptual framework wherein information is transmitted mysteriously and miraculously through any amount of space and time without loss of energy, and presumably without loss or change of content through something like mutation in DNA replication. Thus, room is made for psychical as well as physical transmission of information. Thus,

<br>it is not at all necessary for us to assume that the physical characteristics of organisms are contained inside the genes, which may in fact be analogous to transistors tuned in to the proper frequencies for translating invisible information into visible form. Thus, morphogenetic fields are located invisibly in and around organisms, and may account for such hitherto unexplainable phenomena as the regeneration of severed limbs by worms and salamanders, phantom limbs, the holographic properties of memory, telepathy, and the increasing ease with which new skills are learned as greater quantities of a population acquire them.*

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
morphic resonance
Morphic resonance is a term coined by Rupert Sheldrake for what he thinks is "the basis of memory in nature....the idea of mysterious telepathy-type interconnections between organisms and of collective memories within species."

Sheldrake has been trained in 20th century scientific models--he has a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Cambridge University (1967)--but he prefers Goethe and 19th century vitalism. Sheldrake prefers teleological to mechanistic models of reality. Rather than spend his life, say, trying to develop a way to increase crop yields, he prefers to study and think in terms outside of the paradigms of science, i.e., inside the paradigms of the occult and the paranormal. One of his books is entitled Dogs That Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home: And Other Unexplained Powers of Animals. One of his studies is on whether people can tell when someone is staring at them. (He says they can; others have been unable to duplicate his results.*) He prefers a romantic vision of the past to the bleak picture of a world run by technocrats who want to control Nature and destroy much of the environment in the process. In short, he prefers metaphysics to science, though he seems to think he can do the former but call it the latter.

'Morphic resonance' (MR) is put forth as if it were an empirical term, but it is no more empirical than L. Ron Hubbard's 'engram',  the alleged source of all mental and physical illness. The term is more on par with the Stoic's notion of the Logos or Plato's notion of the eidos  [eidos] than it is with any scientific notion of the laws of nature. What the rest of the scientific world terms lawfulness--the tendency of things to follow patterns we call laws of nature--Sheldrake calls morphic resonance. He describes it as a kind of memory in things determined not by their inherent natures, but by repetition. He also describes MR as something which is transmitted via "morphogenetic fields." This gives him a conceptual framework wherein information is transmitted mysteriously and miraculously through any amount of space and time without loss of energy, and presumably without loss or change of content through something like mutation in DNA replication. Thus, room is made for psychical as well as physical transmission of information. Thus,

<br>it is not at all necessary for us to assume that the physical characteristics of organisms are contained inside the genes, which may in fact be analogous to transistors tuned in to the proper frequencies for translating invisible information into visible form. Thus, morphogenetic fields are located invisibly in and around organisms, and may account for such hitherto unexplainable phenomena as the regeneration of severed limbs by worms and salamanders, phantom limbs, the holographic properties of memory, telepathy, and the increasing ease with which new skills are learned as greater quantities of a population acquire them.*

While this metaphysical proposition does seem to make room for telepathy, it does so at the expense of ignoring Occam's razor. Telepathy and such things as phantom limbs, for example, can be explained without adding the metaphysical baggage of morphic resonance. So can memory, which does not require a holographic paradigm, by the way. The notion that new skills are learned with increasing ease as greater quantities of a population acquire them, known as the hundredth monkey phenomenon, is bogus.

In short, although Sheldrake commands some respect as a scientist because of his education and degree, he has clearly abandoned science in favor of theology and philosophy. This is his right, of course. However, his continued pose as a scientist is unwarranted. He is one of a growing horde of "alternative" scientists whose resentment at the aspiritual nature of modern scientific paradigms, as well as the obviously harmful and seemingly indifferent applications of modern science, have led them to create their own paradigms. These paradigms are not new, though the terminology is. These alternative paradigms allow for angels, telepathy, psychic dogs, and hope for a future world where we all live in harmony and love, surrounded by blissful neighbors who never heard of biological warfare, nuclear bombs, or genetically engineered corn on the cob.

further reading

reader comments

The Psychic Staring Effect An Artifact of Pseudo Randomization by David F. Marks and John Colwell
Sheldrake's response to Marks and Colwell
Robert Baker's response to Sheldrake
Rupert Sheldrake: The delightful crackpot by David Bowman
The amazing ideas of Rupert Sheldrake by John Blanton
Sheldrake, Rupert. 1996. Seven Experiments That Could Change the World: A Do-It-Yourself Guide to Revolutionary Science. Riverhead Books.

<br>------------------------


http://www.rdrop.com/~half/Personal/Beliefs/Skepticism.html

A few days ago someone asked me what my astrological sign was. I replied "Dollar.". This answer did not make the questioner happy.

A day or two later I realized that this question was a good candidate for my F.A.Q. page. People do occasionally ask me what my sign is... once. After they get a non-answer, they usually give up.

This little anecdote nicely introduces one of my beliefs: skepticism. I try to maintain a skeptical outlook on the world. Depending on the subject, this can be an easy or a difficult task. When people are discussing alien abductions or numerology, being a skeptic is a trivial endeavor. On the other hand, when the subject is Microsoft's software, it's a little harder for me to be skeptical and objective. I try, though.

Usually, any mention of the paranormal will set off my skeptical sense. If I'd ever seen convincing evidence of just one supposedly paranormal phenomenon, then it might be easier for me to accept that paranormal phenomena exist. Yet those who profess belief in, say, astrology offer nothing more than anecdotal evidence. How many times must one point out the following?

Anecdotal evidence is not proof.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
The advocate for paranormal phenomena must prove that it exists, rather than the skeptic proving that it doesn't.
It is impossible to prove something's nonexistence.
Just because a phenomenon is currently unexplained does not mean that is unexplainable.
Frankly, I enjoy a good skeptical argument every now and then, but they always seem to degenerate into the same endings (appeals to authority, ad hominem attacks, etc.). After a while it usually isn't worth the energy to continue.

So, in the end, I fall squarely in the skeptics' camp. Without some truly convincing evidence, I refuse to believe in:

alien abductions · angels · animal magnetism · aromatherapy · astral projection · astrology · Atlantis, etc. · auras · the Bermuda Triangle · Bigfoot, etc. · biorhythms · black helicopters · chakras · channeling · chiropractic · creationism · crop circles · deities · dianetics · dowsing · elves · facilitated communication · fairies · feng shui · flat-earth theories · fortune-telling · ghosts · graphology · holistic medicine · hollow-earth theories · homeopathy · intelligent design · intentionality · ley lines · magic · mesmerism · millenniallism · miracles · morphogenetic fields · mystic crystal powers · near-death experiences · numerology · Ouija boards · out-of-body experiences · palmistry · past lives · phrenology · poltergeists · possession · postmodernism · psychic powers · psychic surgery · recovered memories · reincarnation · Reiki · religion · scientology · souls · spirits · spontaneous human combustion · stigmata · subliminal messages · teleology · therapeutic touch · UFOs · voodoo · walk-ins · weeping icons · zombies

(Don't get me started on vampires.)

If you find that you believe in some of the items on this list, I suggest getting a one-year subscription to Skeptical Enquirer. Equal weight is given not only to discussion of paranormal phenomena but also to developing one's critical thinking skills. Read it for a year, and you'll gain a great set of tools for objectively evaluating the impressive claims of paranormalists.

Hey -- treating your brain to something that helps it work better! What a great gift to yourself. Aren't you worth it?

Come to think of it, perhaps an even better gift would be to buy a subscription for your local library. Who knows? You could spread clear thinking throughout your area.

This page was inspired in part by Skeptical Inquirer, Penn & Teller, and Emily and Linda Rosa.

QUOTE
he has clearly abandoned science in favor of theology and philosophy.
<br>Funny, sounds kind of like what I said about you, FV. You are just as religious as any non-evolutionary Christian, Frank. New age religion.
Tachyon8491
The following is an extract from a contributory study to the GCP research conducted by Princeton University on an Internet-wide basis since 1998. This in itself was a product of Princeton's Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory (PEAR) which performed several million trials researching the effect of human intentionality on random and machine processes, finding sufficient statistical significance to warrant the GCP (EGG) study on a massively integrated basis.

QUOTE
Exploratory study of the outputs of continuously operating truly random number generators (RNG) located around the world indicated that the largest daily change in variance in the year 2001 occurred on an unprecedented day in United States history, September 11,2001. Calculation of correlations between all possible pairs of RNG outputs on a per-day basis showed that the largest daily average correlation also took place on September 11. Comparison of daily RNG correlations for 250 days that made headline news in 2001 according to a commercial news service vs. similar measures for 115 non-eventful days showed a larger average RNG correlation on days with major news events (p = 0.011). More generally, the correlation between an objective metric of daily news vs. the daily average RNG correlation was significantly positive (p = 0.001). Potential environmental artifacts were examined and found to be implausible explanations for these results. One interpretation of these findings is that mind-matter interaction effects previously observed only in focused laboratory studies may be detectable outside the laboratory, potentially at a global scale.
<br>Note that despite the statistical significance, likely interpretation is claimed with proper reservation despite the unambigious claim of "..mind-matter interaction effects previously observed only in focused laboratory studies.."

The entire pdf articlemay be read here. It is also certainly worthwhile to study the design criteria and implementation of the true RNGs, as compared to long-run pseudorandom digital RNG's as presented on this site. A further objective analysis of GCP-correlation with the 9/11 attacks and its conclusions is presented here.

Frank Valentyn

DefiledEngine
A one-time event does certainly not prove GC. Furthermore, unlike what is insinuated by the article, all 6 billion people did not react the same time to the 9-11 attacks, nor were all of them horrified. Furthermore, 9-11 can be questioned to be the significant event is is touted to be, and it is already laden with all manners of strange theories.

Furthermore, is this the only registered anomaly on how many years? How many years have this project been in the works? Has this stuff been peer-reviewed?
GCP seems more like a small-scale project by a relatively small number of scientists, relying solely on the we-are-the-world-we-are-the-children reasoning of human ethology (i.e. belief).
Guest
Being a skeptic is wise, even safe.But do realize you will never produce anything of any significance by being one.
harryprice
being a skeptic can be wise.... and keeps you safe from hoaxers! there are a lot of them around these days.
Elektra55
Hmm, single event tongue.gif ! Shows how "deeply" you went into it and actually looked at the evidence. That "argument" of "relatively few scientists" is vapid and vacuous: single scientists, single Univ research departments have often made revolutionary discoveries and genned vital facts on nature, too many to mention. The fact you missed that this is decades of research on a massive integrated basis shows who the hoaxer really is here. And its also not just evidence from this field oh great skeptic one, there's a lot of it from many other research directions but of course you graffitti artists like chucking dirt at any picture that not your own hey.

"Ethology" - unlike your ignorant duhhhh "interpretation" of what that is, has NOTHING WHATEVER to do with "belief" - it's later development from Skinnerian Behavioural theory looking at conditioned learning, then developed by people like Lorenz, Tinbergen and Hailman to understand animal behaviour in their actual environments as versus in lab situations. Shows how much you know: deliberate disinformation on your part prob as well mad.gif

Sure, safe to be a skeptic - better kill Copernicus again and be a geocentric. Skeptics are after all known to be the most productive and progressive people on Earth of course. Especially if they don' botha to even look at the evidence and set out to disinform everybody on the basis of their own belief, which, natch, they condemn in others.

El
shamanka
Okay . . . how about this for some "balance" as someone asked a few comments back . . . and a bit of humor too :

THE THEORY OF EVERYTHING . . . OR . . . THE ULTIMATE RECIPE

There they were . . . long white coats with brass name tags on them looking every bit the part of "Scientific Americans" and such . . . teams of scientists and physicists sitting around a number of think tank tables. Each group was working on describing the complex, scientific breakdown of an ingredient which had been assigned to them. One group was working on eggs, another on milk, yet another on salt. Others were busy describing sugar, baking powder, butter, flour, or spices, etc. All of the teams were well aware that their assigned ingredient had the potential to be part of "something greater than itself" but that was not their concern for now. Eventually they handed their final conclusions over to the team of brilliant minds whose task it was to formulate an expression of this "something greater" that connected all of the independent ingredients. However, this team could not agree on how to write up an "ultimate recipe" that made sense. Their attachment to being right and coming up with the perfect "theory of everything" kept them from describing the perfect "reality of everything" that had actually been there with them all along. It was in box on a cart in one corner of the room.

There they were . . . long white faces with pensive grimaces on them looking every bit the part of "Scientific Americans" and such . . . when a rather "unscientific" looking woman entered the room. She walked over to the cart in the corner and removed the top of the box as everyone gradually looked up from their places. It became apparent that the box contained a beautifully decorated birthday cake. A few team members at one of the tables gathered around one man and pushed him towards the woman and the cart. "Happy Birthday To You" they all sang to him as he blew out the candles she had just finished lighting. Party foods and beverages were brought in by the rest of the catering company attendants and a grand party ensued. It was a great relief for everyone to take this much needed break from the pressure of being scientific geniuses. The cake was very delicious. Someone began asking questions of the woman who had cut the cake up into even pieces which she was now in the process of serving. "What's in this cake ?" they asked. " What are the ingredients ?" "I can write them up on your chalk board if you'd like" she said. Another person handed her a piece of chalk and motioned for her to come forward. She began to write : Eggs, milk, salt, sugar, baking powder, butter, flour, and spices . . .

There they were . . . long white light bulbs shining brightly over the heads of all of the "Scientific Americans" and such . . . as the "unscientific" looking woman politely asked "Do you think maybe you've all just been to close to the ingredients to see the cake?" And then as she was leaving the room she quietly added "You really can describe your cake and eat it too."

shamanka
harryprice
Resorting to name calling just shows the weakness of any arguement... so, let me mention a couple of well known hoaxes... how about the Amittyville Horror? a bit of checking soon revealed the hoax behind this multi-million dollar "ghost" story. No shortage of people around who still believe this story to be true.
And what about Pierre Plantard and his Priory of Sion hoax? All those Grand Masters of his secret society that he just made up so that he could pretend he was decended from royalty etc... meanwhile millions believe Dan Brown actually researched this story! I don 't remember skeptics ever threatning to burn anyone, you must be mixing us up with the Catholic Church!
Guest
Few here would spit on the scientific method, it's just that most people who call themselves skeptics don't rely on it any more than the hoaxers. Heck yea, shoot down the hoaxers. Excuse me while I go wash my hands.
harryprice
glad to see you took some time to look at my posting and formulate a reasoned arguement before deciding to have all skeptics murdered!
Tachyon8491
Furtive Fame

The sneak is back
hurray, with stealth!
and hiding his drab pedigree
in falsifying anonymity,

Behind his front he drags
the weeping sewer of disgust
accruing
that he would call his "rationale"
and productive attitude

Where he perverse proceeds
to stroke and nurture
with maim and flaccid bludgeon
and in the acid of his heart
belie his true ambition:

To sneak his sneer
and snide veneer
onto the dark'ning stage
with snicker aim his coprolite
to blight what others value

Then retrominge
down through his wake
of festering antithesis
that foetid spirit fearing
to ever lave or love,

he backs into his shades
gnawing the groin of his intent -
to disseize and bend
that which he cannot understand
and flail in his own disease



(Dedicated to all anonymous graffiti artists visiting this thread)




Tachyon8491
Nice post Shamanka, many are indeed far too analytical and completely miss the experience of the "greater than the sum of its parts" by having their focus too close to the soup biggrin.gif

FV
harryprice
Don't beat about the bush tacy, vent your spleen! Tell us what you really think and name names! Who are these people that you are aiming your "poetry" at? By the way, don't give up your day job... sad to say but poetry requires that the writer has a warming and meaningful way with words... for others to appreciate it that is!
Elektra55
Well that's really mystifying Hawwy Pwice, I thought the likeness created in that excellent verse hit you spot on: "Weeping sewer," "retromingent," "falsifying anonymity," "flailing in his own disease" - sounds exactly like you, and the character hiding behind the other unregistered names you use. By the way, do give up your day-job and do your employer a favour will you - if you are as totally intolerable there as you are in all your wonderful posts and "constructive" comments, they'll breathe heavenly relief when you retrominge out their back-door.

El
harryprice
Ouch! Aaahhh! What a sharp wit and pen you have... but wait, I've guessed your identity, You're Bernand Manning in disquise or maybe even a reincarnation of that celebrated performer.
First things first, if this "Billy Bunterish" poisen pen poetry is aimed at anonymous posters then it is equally aimed at you as it is at me. Unless I'm mistaken and your parents really named you after their vacuum cleaner/toaser or vibrator, you would appear to be hiding behind a false name and it seems you are also an unregistered poster. There is a popular phrase that incorperates the words pot, kettle and black. You may wish to ask someone about that to see if it applies to you.
Being a bit on the skeptical side, I like to check facts before jumping in feet first.... so tell me, on what evidence are you basing your accusations that I have been posting here using other names? Have you checked the writing styles prehaps? mmm, thought not... How about checking with the moderator to see if these other posts you are accusing me of writing actually come from the same computer? Same time zone? Same continent? mmm, didn't think you had. For even a short check would find you to be wrong! But don't worry about that, I must be guilty because I was not impressed with tacky's "poetry" or " excellent verse" as you described it.
Though you may not know it, the phrase "don't give up your day job" has been around and used for fun in the music business for many, many years. Only someone like yourself could misunderstand it and throw such barbs around. You may be impressed by tacy's prose but the vast majority of us in the world are not!I'll look for your next acid reflux reaction in a few days time... happy menopause!
Elektra55
Waaaah! Hawwypwice the poison dwarf wants proof!

Akshully, that little missive was aimed exactly at you, no-one else, nobody other, only you, you by exclusion, just to make that clear.

Oh, your "day-job-joke" was not misunderstood - I just corrected it for its proper application in your case. I for one find Tachyon's work excellent and thought provoking - but then I suppose you need a sort of minimum IQ to cope with it which may not be achievable in your case.

Little suggestion - why don't you start using a dictionary or use your PC's spelling checker to avoid the same spelling errors all the time - the form and frequency of the exact same ones all the time and your clear lack of grammar school exposure in your other (registered and unregistered) incognitos tend to give people away.

How noble - menopause is however a natural condition, you've just insulted a couple of billion women - in your case mental debility with the need to touch everything with toxin and destruction is not normally regarded as natural. Must have been intrauterine infection caused by that vacuum cleaner you keep referring to.

As concerns pots criticising kettles - if the pot was Charles Manson and you were Copernicus you would be right. You managed to misjudge your status though, no wonder with your ego.

El

Guest
Fascinating discussion. I really like this Ultimate Recipie.
Tachyon8492
Tachyon8491 are you talking to yourself?
harryprice
Dear electrode, nice try at a diversion but... I seem to notice you somehow managed to avoid answering any of my questions regarding how you came to conclusion that I am the one writing these anonymous posts that you so object to. Please confirm you have checked with the moderator... and of course, I know you haven't, and do the postings you object to come from the same computer as the ones under the name of harryprice? do they even come from the same continent? or same time zone? From this humble beginning you can quickly find out how wrong you are... now, I know you don't want to check it out but until you do there is not a lot left to discuss except tacky's comical poetry.
A personal attack instead of showing facts simply shows how poor your arguement really is... I know you are wrong and you know you haven't even done the first part of investigating to see if you are right... you need more than a spell checker to save you here! Be sure to let us all know AFTER you have checked with the moderator.... I feel more hot flushes heading your way.
I can't even begin to imagine what I have done to be compared to charlie manson, happy helter skelter to you and hope you feel better soon.
your old pal, harry
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