God is happy to accommodate your request by creating a clean new heart within you, but it must be done his way, not yours. If you allow God to create a new heart in you, you will know it, and those who know you best will be able to see the change in your life.
<br>Very nice response, Jerry! You don't have to address the actual question, and you also do not have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of attempting to offer any actual evidence of your creator's existence, especially when we all know that there is no way to "test" for God. Plus, I'll wager you're hoping to "build up treasure in Heaven" by utilizing yet another opportunity for a pathetic attempt at evangelizing.
Let's be honest now, and admit that the only evidence for God(s) is personal experiences, that are exceedingly unverifiable, and unfailingly impossible to recreate within a laboratory setting. The only way to "know" God exists is to drink the same koolaid... and I'll pass, thank you very much.
[URL]Is God real?[/URL]
The actual question is whether God is the Creator. The reality of creating clean hearts in dirty human beings has been going on for thousands of years. It is a well understood process which is doable by everyone who is willing to do it according to God's instructions.
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. (Psalms 51:10-13)
Every experiment is confirmed by personal experience. If you refuse to conduct the experiment, all you can say is, "I don't know." Your perception of the Gospel as something deadly is accurate as far as it goes, but while it means death to your life of sin, it also means life to your eternal soul.
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. (II Corinthians 2:15-17)
It is only the old man that dies when you get saved, the man who is today a slave of the devil. The physical body will die in due course whether you get saved or not, but the new man with a clean heart who belongs to Jesus Christ will never die.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (Hebrews 2:14-15)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Kaeroll
7th November 2005 - 09:54 PM
| QUOTE | “Wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself.” Romans 2:1
That applies to you, too, Jerry. You judge evolutionists as liars, nice way to condemn yourself.
If the warranty had a clause as silly as 'don't eat the apples', and provides totally useless tech support to us, Bill Gates must be God ...
sinned34
8th November 2005 - 02:41 AM
That's funny! Jerry, you make Jesus sound like an extended warranty, except that it costs a lot more than 30% of the original purchase price (I have to give up ALL my life?), the fine print is hidden within a 2000 page document (with multiple versions & tons of errors), you have to pay 10% (or more) of your income to the store you purchased the warranty at for the rest of your life, there are requirements to sign up everybody you know and meet (with no additional benefits acquired), and there is no way to find out if anybody has ever successfully collected on the guarantee.
Doesn't sound like a worthwhile investment to me, and I was suckered into buying the Future Shop extended warranty once.
Oh, and I checked with the Better Business Bureau, and found that God and Jesus aren't members. Caveat Emptor!
Binaural
8th November 2005 - 01:53 PM
QUOTE ( GeneSplicer+) I guess the designer does not offer any sort of warranty with his product. <br>Quite possibly the best ID quote I have ever read 
Jonathan Michael
8th November 2005 - 04:02 PM
 Okay. In all honesty I am fine with whatever beliefs you may or may not have. But as to the theory of creationism and its spot in the bible. Has not nearly every theory from some 2000+- years ago been proved incorrect or incomplete? And also, How could a "GOD" create humans, the earth, and the heavens, out of nothing.. when he himself would be nothing. How can nothingness create nothingness? I guess the point I am trying to get across is that for a "GOD" to exist he would have to be made of some sort of matter or anti-matter. And if he created the universe from nothing, then wouldn't he himself be nothing? As in non-existent? It is just very perplexing as to how persons whom lived in excess of 2000 years ago could have been so intelligent as to the creation of the universe, and its 5000 year history  , yet still know next to nothing of science and/or philosophy. If "GOD" truly is the ultimate observer, where's his telescope?
Jonathan Michael
8th November 2005 - 04:11 PM
One other thing...
Is it not in the ten commandments that thou shall not worship any engraven image.. or something along those lines?
Isn't worshipping Your lord & Savior Jesus H Christ an act of the aforementioned worship? Even if he is the true son of "GOD", wouldn't the worship he receives from the millions of christians be considered a sin? So... what I am to understand is that to rid myself of sin, I must sin? Think about this deeply. If I was to rid myself of sin, I must give myself to Jesus (as sick as that may sound). I must worship him as do the members of my family, my place of employment, the countless churches I have visited, and the countless pastors I have met. This too is just as perplexing as my previous post.
p.s. I love constructive criticism.
Kaeroll
8th November 2005 - 04:32 PM
Jonathan,
To the best of my knowledge, they get around that one using the concept of a holy trinity, in which God is composed of three parts - God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit - rolled into one. Three parts of one entity.
I'm not sure if that's entirely correct, but it's what I was lead to believe my by (Catholic) Religious Studies teacher when I pitted the very same question to her some years ago.
Cheers
Kaeroll
Jonathan Michael
8th November 2005 - 05:33 PM
Perfectly understandable...
But am I incorrect in saying that the 10 commandments came before Jesus? And am I also incorrect in saying that the bible did not predict the birth of Mr. Christ? I understand that GOD may be thought to be comprised of three parts, but how can they predict that Jesus himself is one of those parts? Wouldn't they have to rewrite certain aspects of the bible to include that? It just really confuses me to be honest with you. And now all I can think of is the episode of South Park where Jesus fights satan and turns water into wine by simply having a pitcher of water, turning around, grabbing a pitcher of wine, and calling it magic.
Jerry Duke
8th November 2005 - 07:42 PM
 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (sinned34+Nov 8 2005, 02:41 AM) ... (I have to give up ALL my life?) ...
Doesn't sound like a worthwhile investment to me ... <b> Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in e x c h a n g e for his soul? (Matthew 16:24-26) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
Jerry Duke
8th November 2005 - 07:52 PM
QUOTE (Jonathan Michael+Nov 8 2005, 05:33 PM) Perfectly understandable...
But am I incorrect in saying that the 10 commandments came before Jesus? And am I also incorrect in saying that the bible did not predict the birth of Mr. Christ? I understand that GOD may be thought to be comprised of three parts, but how can they predict that Jesus himself is one of those parts? Wouldn't they have to rewrite certain aspects of the bible to include that? ... The old testament is all about Jesus. There is no need to rewrite any of it. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (John 5:39) Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying, Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD. And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. (Isaiah 7:10-16) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (Matthew 1:21-25) The name Jesus is from the Hebrew word Yeshuwa meaning "he will save". The old testament tells us that God is the Saviour, so naming the Saviour "JESUS" is the equivalent of saying that God is with us in the form of a human being (Immanuel = Emmanuel). Jesus proves that he is God in the flesh by saving people from their sins. Isaiah Chapter 53 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Jerry Duke
8th November 2005 - 08:01 PM
QUOTE (Jonathan Michael+Nov 8 2005, 04:02 PM) ...I guess the point I am trying to get across is that for a "GOD" to exist he would have to be made of some sort of matter or anti-matter. ... <span style='color:red'> God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24) God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. (Acts 17:24-29)
Jerry Duke
8th November 2005 - 08:56 PM
 Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Kaeroll+Nov 8 2005, 04:32 PM) ... the concept of a holy trinity... <b> For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy G h o s t: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (I John 5:7-12) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
Kaeroll
8th November 2005 - 09:29 PM
Jonathan, The 10 Commandments did come before Jesus, though I have no idea whether the Old Testament predicted him. It did predict a messiah and the 'son of god' or a similar idea, to the best of my knowledge. I guess he fit the description. (Or they, as you suggest, altered it to suit him). South Park rocks. Jerry- Your quote does not address Jonathan's point regarding whether God is made of matter (or energy, or whatever). Care to offer your opinion on it? Cheers. Kaeroll
Jerry Duke
9th November 2005 - 09:09 PM
QUOTE (Kaeroll+Nov 8 2005, 09:29 PM) ...
Jerry-
Your quote does not address Jonathan's point regarding whether God is made of matter (or energy, or whatever). Care to offer your opinion on it? Cheers.
Kaeroll Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, was composed of the same material as you and I, while he lived in this world. Beyond that, I think it would be fruitless to speculate. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. (Deuteronomy 4:24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24) For our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29) God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (I John 1:5) And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. (I John 4:16)
newguy
10th November 2005 - 12:17 AM
QUOTE (Kaeroll+Nov 7 2005, 09:54 PM) | QUOTE | “Wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself.” Romans 2:1
That applies to you, too, Jerry. You judge evolutionists as liars, nice way to condemn yourself.
If the warranty had a clause as silly as 'don't eat the apples', and provides totally useless tech support to us, Bill Gates must be God ... Kaeroll: Just for the sake of accuracy...Actually, that is only a partial quote which really, at least in this case, makes it a misquote as it is misunderstood and misinterpreted by being quoted out of context. If you read the verses that precede and follow it(I don't have a Bible with me at the moment or I'd give the entire quote...I don't want to paraphrase it), then you would see that "hypocrisy" was the real theme that was being addressed. Paul was addressing those that told others not to steal(for example) but stole themselves. Although they were in essence judging others correctly, at the same time they were condemning themselves because they weren't practicing what they accurately preached. That is the true context. As I said on another thread:
"A text out of context is a pretext."
As I said, that was just for the sake of accuracy.
newguy
10th November 2005 - 12:32 AM
Kaeroll: Thought I'd better add this...my last post wasn't any sort of rebuke to you...I know you were only quoting what JerryDuke already posted from the tract. Actually, my problem is with those that just pull verses out of context to try to make a point. As far as your question as to what God is "made of" is concerned...I would agree with Jerry that God is a Spirit, as are angels, whether good or evil. I also believe that we are all spirit beings living in earthen vessels(bodies) and that our spirits will leave our bodies at death. It is the spiritual separation of man from God due to sin that is the focus of the gospel. I will be happy to greatly elaborate on this for anyone who is but interested. Although it would be very hard for me to try to describe a "spirit" in natural terms, I can say that I have had much experience in the "spirit world", so to speak, on both the good and evil side. Again, I will be happy to elaborate on that statement as well for anyone who is but interested. Until then...
Kaeroll
10th November 2005 - 05:10 PM
Newguy,
Thanks for putting that into context - I've only had the opportunity to study certain areas of the Bible, and then not in any great depth, so the quote was entirely new to me.
I think you're probably right that there's no point speculating what God is made of; if he indeed exists, logically he must exist somewhere outside our universe, which means we can never know either way and presumably he's not made of anything we'd recognise.
Kaeroll
Jerry Duke
10th November 2005 - 06:31 PM
QUOTE (Kaeroll+Nov 7 2005, 09:54 PM) | QUOTE | “Wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself.” Romans 2:1
That applies to you, too, Jerry. You judge evolutionists as liars, nice way to condemn yourself...
If you provide the quote where I "judge evolutionists as liars", I'll be happy to respond.
Kaeroll
10th November 2005 - 09:02 PM
Jerry, QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 10 2005, 06:31 PM) If you provide the quote where I "judge evolutionists as liars", I'll be happy to respond. I've had a look through recent posts for some direct quotes, which are below. QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 8 2005, 05:31 PM) Evolution is a myth, a lie. As such it opposes the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Truth. This, to me, suggests that evolutionists are spreading the 'lie' of evolution knowingly, and are therefore liars. I hope I haven't misunderstood. QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Oct 21 2005, 07:33 PM) It is a belief system that persists in spite of scientific proof that it is a lie. I realise this post is slightly older, but it's one that stuck in my mind; again, it suggests to me that evolution is a myth/religion being passed off as truth by 'liars'. And again, I hope I haven't misunderstood you. I didn't mean my comment as an insult, by the way; just an observation, and my opinion. Kaeroll
Iesous
11th November 2005 - 01:34 AM
QUOTE (Kazmer Ujvarosy+Aug 5 2005, 06:56 AM) If a simple beginning could cause greater complexity than itself, then it would invalidate the cause-and-effect relationship. Read Wolfram a new kind of science Cause is the needle effect is the haystack Once more a pebble rolls from the top of a great mountain the land slide (effect)which follows is infinitely greater than the cause. Gee 
Iesous
11th November 2005 - 01:38 AM
QUOTE (Iesous+Nov 11 2005, 01:34 AM) QUOTE (Kazmer Ujvarosy+Aug 5 2005, 06:56 AM) If a simple beginning could cause greater complexity than itself, then it would invalidate the cause-and-effect relationship. Read Wolfram a new kind of science. Or as I see it . . . Cause is the needle effect is the haystack Once more a pebble rolls from the top of a great mountain the land slide (effect)which follows is infinitely greater than the cause. (edit) Our we the needle lost in the haystack? Gee Go with my second choice - I don't understand the first one myself!
Jerry Duke
11th November 2005 - 03:30 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Iesous+Nov 11 2005, 01:34 AM) QUOTE (Kazmer Ujvarosy+Aug 5 2005, 06:56 AM) If a simple beginning could cause greater complexity than itself, then it would invalidate the cause-and-effect relationship. Read Wolfram a new kind of science Cause is the needle effect is the haystack Once more a pebble rolls from the top of a great mountain the land slide (effect)which follows is infinitely greater than the cause. Gee Infinitely greater?  Only in Wolfram's fantasies. Is this what is being taught in physics classes these days? The effect is NOT greater than the cause. If you account for the total p o t e n t i a l and kinetic energy that exists in the mountain before the pebble rolls, the total energy in the system (mountain with pebble including whatever causes the pebble to roll) before the landslide will not be less than the total energy in the system after the landslide. I thank God for the official endorsement of Creation Science. If Wolfram represents the state of secular science, Creation Science is the only real science we have. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1:16-23) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
Jerry Duke
11th November 2005 - 08:32 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Kaeroll+Nov 10 2005, 09:02 PM) Jerry, QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 10 2005, 06:31 PM) If you provide the quote where I "judge evolutionists as liars", I'll be happy to respond. I've had a look through recent posts for some direct quotes, which are below. QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 8 2005, 05:31 PM) Evolution is a myth, a lie. As such it opposes the Lord Jesus Christ who is the Truth. This, to me, suggests that evolutionists are spreading the 'lie' of evolution knowingly, and are therefore liars. I hope I haven't misunderstood. QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Oct 21 2005, 07:33 PM) It is a belief system that persists in spite of scientific proof that it is a lie. I realise this post is slightly older, but it's one that stuck in my mind; again, it suggests to me that evolution is a myth/religion being passed off as truth by 'liars'. And again, I hope I haven't misunderstood you. I didn't mean my comment as an insult, by the way; just an observation, and my opinion. Kaeroll Thank you for your help with this. I appreciate your holding me accountable for what I have said. I agree with you that the characterization of Evolution as a lie implies that those who create the lie are liars; however, it is not my intention to judge anyone as a liar. To the contrary, my whole purpose in posting to this forum is to persuade everyone that they should turn away from lies and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ so that they can be forgiven and escape the judgment. Only those who refuse the forgiveness of God will be judged. Those who have their sins forgiven will have the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to them and will escape the judgment altogether. Whether any one individual is deliberately lying or simply repeating information which they have been taught, God knows. I have no authority nor any right to judge a fellow human being, that is the province of God alone. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isaiah 1:18) I found the following in another forum which appears to be the source of the second quote you cite. QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Oct 21 2005, 07:33 PM) Is evolution mythology?
The account of the creation of the heavens and the earth in the Holy Bible is revealed truth. The scientific evidence refuting evolution makes it logical to conclude that evolution is mythology. It is a belief system that persists in spite of scientific proof that it is a lie. (see "Science as Mythology" by Daniel Boorstin, Science Digest, December 1984 p. 82) The characterization of Evolution as myth is based on an article written by the Librarian of Congress, Daniel Boorstin in 1984. | QUOTE | "Our myths of the future... are governed by large generalizing abstractions inherited from the science of the past two centuries. One comes from the biological sciences, and its name is Evolution."
Science as Mythology
by Daniel J. Boorstin
Science Digest, December 1984 p. 82
This characterization fits with the definition of myth as "a traditional or legendary story ... with or without a determinable basis of fact" and "any invented story, idea, or concept". Evolutionists tell stories about the past mixing "fact" with fiction to make them seem plausable. Whenever the "facts" are shown to be hoaxes, such as the supposed missing links between apes and human beings, the stories are changed to agree with the adjusted set of "facts". Progenitor apes are now "out" but lemurs and shrews giving birth to humans beings are "in". Whether it is apes, lemurs or shrews, there is no proof that the story is true.
Are evolutionists "spreading the 'lie' of evolution knowingly"?
Not necessarily. However, on some level I think they must all know that what they are saying is not true. I have heard justifications like, "It is the best explanation we can give based on the facts at hand." This admission implies that they know there will someday be a revision of the explanation and that the current version cannot be true. In spite of this the explanation is usually presented as established fact.
In the 1960s Evolution was presented as lightning striking volcanic rock on the shore of a primordial sea causing lifeless chemicals to become organized into a living cell which over the course of three or four billion years transforms itself into every kind of living plant and animal. In college I was told that this story was true because, "Given enough time, a room full of monkeys with typewriters will reproduce The Works of Shakespeare." The probability of such a thing happening is zero; therefore, Evolution is false. Any scientist should know this.
More recently we have the myth that goes like this, "If only one in a million of the stars in the universe are like the s u n, and only one in a million of those suns have panets, and only one in a million of those planets are like the earth; then there must be billions and billions of places in the universe where life has evolved to a higher form than it has on the earth." This myth is based on the unproved assumption that live evolved from inanimate matter on earth and/or elsewhere in the universe. The truth is that given all the time and space resources of the universe, the probability of life on earth evolving from inanimate matter is zero.
Is evolution "a myth/religion being passed off as truth by 'liars'"?
It seems clear to me that those who perpetrated Piltdown Man hoax, and those who have knowingly falsified the evidence, will be judged by God to be liars unless they repent(ed) and receive(d) forgiveness. One could argue either way about whether evolution is myth/religion. For some people it clearly is myth/religion. For others it clearly is science. Unfortunately there is no definition for "Evolution" as it is known in popular culture.
The current definitions of evolution include, "1. any process of formation or growth; d e v e l o p m e n t: the evolution of man ... 3. Biol. the continuous genetic adaptation of organisms or species to the environment by the integrating agencies of selection, hybridization, inbreeding, and mutation." (see Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary)
By these definitions I am an evolutionist! Perhaps I should be happy  that Evolution has expanded itself to include every possible scenario including the creation of the heavens and the earth in six literal days by God. This effectively renders it meaningless. But I am not happy. The problem is that while "Evolution" is not in the dictionary, it is very active in popular culture and in the educational system. Evolution with a capital "E" is still the myth/religion which teaches that human beings evolved from dumb animals and that implies that human beings who believe that God created the heavens and the earth are inferior to those who do not believe in God.
In this forum I have been told that the origin of life is no longer a part of evolution, that the evolutionists have divorced themselves from the problem of origins by transferring it to Biogenesis. Based on what I have read in this forum, I would summarize the theory of Evolution as: "Life exists; therefore, Biogenesis occured. Living creatures have the ability change (evolve) in response to their environment; therefore, Evolution 'from goo to you by way of the zoo' is true." I would think that Evolution in this sense is cleary a religious tenet.
Again, it is not my intention to judge or condemn anyone. My job is to do what I can to spread the good news that God will forgive the sins of anyone who will turn away from them and accept his Son Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord.
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Nessus
11th November 2005 - 10:15 PM
| QUOTE | I have heard justifications like, "It is the best explanation we can give based on the facts at hand." This admission implies that they know there will someday be a revision of the explanation and that the current version cannot be true. In spite of this the explanation is usually presented as established fact.
<br>That pretty much sounds like all Science to me. Science doesn't say theories are absolutely correct, but the best given the (heres where you differ) evidence that we have.
Of course there will be revision!, all theories need revision and Evolution definitely has had alot of revision. Science doesn't claim to know all things, or to be absolutely right but to be as right as it can be given the evidence.
Which is unlike creationism which doesn't use evidence at all but faith.
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | I have heard justifications like, "It is the best explanation we can give based on the facts at hand." This admission implies that they know there will someday be a revision of the explanation and that the current version cannot be true. In spite of this the explanation is usually presented as established fact.
<br>That pretty much sounds like all Science to me. Science doesn't say theories are absolutely correct, but the best given the (heres where you differ) evidence that we have.
Of course there will be revision!, all theories need revision and Evolution definitely has had alot of revision. Science doesn't claim to know all things, or to be absolutely right but to be as right as it can be given the evidence.
Which is unlike creationism which doesn't use evidence at all but faith.
In college I was told that this story was true because, "Given enough time, a room full of monkeys with typewriters will reproduce The Works of Shakespeare." The probability of such a thing happening is zero; therefore, Evolution is false. Any scientist should know this
<br>Your basing your "logic" on something you heard in college that, by itself, is not a good way to explain evolution. The monkeys+typewriters is showing randomness (and the probability is not zero) but evolution has much more than randomness, it has selection in it. I cant be bothered explaining evolution to you, go look it up, please.
| QUOTE | More recently we have the myth that goes like this, "If only one in a million of the stars in the universe are like the s u n, and only one in a million of those suns have panets, and only one in a million of those planets are like the earth; then there must be billions and billions of places in the universe where life has evolved to a higher form than it has on the earth."
<br>Evolution on this planet does not require other stars to have life. This just is explaining if Evolution (and the theories that explain how life first started) is true then there is bound to be other life out there. I wouldn't mention higher form, just that life exists else where.
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | More recently we have the myth that goes like this, "If only one in a million of the stars in the universe are like the s u n, and only one in a million of those suns have panets, and only one in a million of those planets are like the earth; then there must be billions and billions of places in the universe where life has evolved to a higher form than it has on the earth."
<br>Evolution on this planet does not require other stars to have life. This just is explaining if Evolution (and the theories that explain how life first started) is true then there is bound to be other life out there. I wouldn't mention higher form, just that life exists else where.
Unfortunately there is no definition for "Evolution" as it is known in popular culture.
<br>Heres a brief definition of Scientific Evolution:
In biology, evolution is the process by which populations of organisms acquire and pass on novel traits from generation to generation, affecting the overall makeup of the population and even leading to the emergence of new species.
If you complain that that doesn't explain enough then by all means learn what evolution is about. And don't be stupid, the world evolution is used out of science at time ("my book i was writing evolved into something much better than it was before!").
| QUOTE | In this forum I have been told that the origin of life is no longer a part of evolution, that the evolutionists have divorced themselves from the problem of origins by transferring it to Biogenesis.
<br>I personally have never used Evolution to explain the "Start of life" as in how life first came about, the first cells (or the first whatever was first). Possibly your confusing "Origins of life" as meaning "Start of life" + cells evolving into all the life we see around us now. Evolution is only the latter part.
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | In this forum I have been told that the origin of life is no longer a part of evolution, that the evolutionists have divorced themselves from the problem of origins by transferring it to Biogenesis.
<br>I personally have never used Evolution to explain the "Start of life" as in how life first came about, the first cells (or the first whatever was first). Possibly your confusing "Origins of life" as meaning "Start of life" + cells evolving into all the life we see around us now. Evolution is only the latter part.
Based on what I have read in this forum, I would summarize the theory of Evolution as: "Life exists; therefore, Biogenesis occured
<br>Your ability to ignore facts is impressive, as is your ignorance of evolution. You missed out things like fossil record, genetics, vestigial organs etc.
| QUOTE | Again, it is not my intention to judge or condemn anyone. My job is to do what I can to spread the good news that God will forgive the sins of anyone who will turn away from them and accept his Son Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord.
<br>This is probably the worst place in the world to attempt that. Which just goes to show you how selfish you are. If you want to save someone goto a third world country and save their lives, their physical lives. I'm sure they will appreciate it enough to convert to your religion
Jerry Duke
14th November 2005 - 04:34 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mark 16:15) All the world includes PhyOrgForums. How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
Jerry Duke
14th November 2005 - 05:31 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Nessus+Nov 11 2005, 10:15 PM) ... The monkeys+typewriters is showing randomness (and the probability is not zero) ... What is your finest physical standard of measure, below which fineness of measurement you cannot distinguish between something and nothing? If evolution has a physical basis, it cannot occur in this universe unless it has physical material, like atoms or sub-atomic particles, upon which to work. The monkeys typing Shakespeare probability, expressed in physical terms (like drawing straws) is like drawing a straw that is less than one in ten to the 12,000,000 part of a neutrino out of a universe that is a haystack filled with similar minute particles. The straws, if they existed at all, would be indetectable; therefore, it would be physically impossible to draw just one straw out of the haystack and physically impossible to tell the difference between the short straw and any of the other straws. Is this the chance upon which you are willing to bet your life, including your eternal soul?A c c o u n t i n g for the information content of The Works of Shakespeare is nothing compared to a c c o u n t i n g for the information content of DNA. Invoking a selection process does not help. All it does is reduce the total number of trials upon which randomness has to work, and diverts the probability calculations from the goal to the selection process. The n e t effect is to reduce the probability. Instead of randomness a c c o u n t i n g for a well defined entity, you have randomness a c c o u n t i n g for a selection process that contains the information content of the target entity plus overhead before the target entity comes into existence. In the case of living creatures you are talking about a Creator who knows every detail of the creation from the beginning. Only God has that attribute. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in e x c h a n g e for his soul? (Mark 8:35-37) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
Jerry Duke
14th November 2005 - 06:09 PM
QUOTE (Nessus+Nov 11 2005, 10:15 PM) ... Which is unlike creationism which doesn't use evidence at all but faith. ... Faith is evidence. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (Hebrews 11:1-3)
Nessus
14th November 2005 - 08:15 PM
Jerry, faith is believing something without evidence or logical proof. What bit of "without evidence" turns into your mind as "evidence"?
| QUOTE | All it does is reduce the total number of trials upon which randomness has to work, and diverts the probability calculations from the goal to the selection process
<br>That sounds almost correct, randomness+selection reduce the amount of "searching" required to find a better solution, this is basically how genetic algorithms work. They search a huge space much more efficiently than just random search by combining good solutions together to get better ones and mutations. this allows both local searching and global, which means you can find the optimal or near optimal solution very quickly at times.
I have no idea why your talking about straws, but even though the monkey+typewriter "analogy" to evolution is blatantly false, since the works of (anything) are finite, if you allow infinite time a monkey can type it out in one go. If you don't allow infinite time then the thought experiment becomes useless, you would have to go into specifics that don't mean anything at all.
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | All it does is reduce the total number of trials upon which randomness has to work, and diverts the probability calculations from the goal to the selection process
<br>That sounds almost correct, randomness+selection reduce the amount of "searching" required to find a better solution, this is basically how genetic algorithms work. They search a huge space much more efficiently than just random search by combining good solutions together to get better ones and mutations. this allows both local searching and global, which means you can find the optimal or near optimal solution very quickly at times.
I have no idea why your talking about straws, but even though the monkey+typewriter "analogy" to evolution is blatantly false, since the works of (anything) are finite, if you allow infinite time a monkey can type it out in one go. If you don't allow infinite time then the thought experiment becomes useless, you would have to go into specifics that don't mean anything at all.
Invoking a selection process does not help
<br>You must understand how evolution works, else how can you come up with statements that are so completely the opposite of evolution? Randomness must be coupled with some selection process, life doesn't come from randomness itself. Evolution works using natural selection (which is a "selection process"), since you understand evolution you know about this.
Lastly, why would I bet my life on it? You know thats an amazing way to convince people. And its such statements that make me pity you and your blind faith.
Souls are myths so I doubt i have an eternal one.
And its Accounting not A c c o u n t i n g, do everyone a favor and learn to type properly instead of preaching, everyone will be overjoyed if you do.
Jerry Duke
14th November 2005 - 08:43 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.I know Jesus Christ, the author and finisher of the Christian faith, and I know he is true. A lot of people, including my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, have laid down their lives so that you and I could have the opportunity to receive faith from God. If I were to reject God's definition of faith for a corrupt definition concocted by people who do not know God, I would be a fool. For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. (II Timothy 1:12) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
Jerry Duke
14th November 2005 - 09:18 PM
QUOTE (Nessus+Nov 14 2005, 08:15 PM) ...
I have no idea why your talking about straws, but even though the monkey+typewriter "analogy" to evolution is blatantly false, since the works of (anything) are finite, if you allow infinite time a monkey can type it out in one go. If you don't allow infinite time then the thought experiment becomes useless, you would have to go into specifics that don't mean anything at all. ... Drawing straws is a way to illustrate propabilities. A chance of one in three can be shown by drawing one straw from a set of three straws. One straw is shorter than the other two, but the person doing the drawing can only see one end of the three straws and cannot tell which one is shorter before making the choice. By analogy a probability of one in ten to the 12,000,000 power can be demonstrated by having one short straw and (ten to the twelve million) minus one long straws. According to the evolutionists, a lemur or a shrew became the roomful of monkeys and Shakespeare himself in less than four billion years by a random process.
gmilam
14th November 2005 - 09:36 PM
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 14 2005, 03:18 PM) Drawing straws is a way to illustrate propabilities. You do know that showing your "probabilities" is pointless don't you? We could be the 1 in 645,738,594,022,354...
Jerry Duke
14th November 2005 - 09:45 PM
QUOTE (Nessus+Nov 14 2005, 08:15 PM) ... Lastly, why would I bet my life on it? ... You've been given the opportunity to receive Salvation. If I hear you correctly, you have rejected Jesus Christ because you believe in something that has zero (to at least 12,000,000 decimal places) probability of being true. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (John 3:16-20)
Jerry Duke
14th November 2005 - 09:49 PM
QUOTE (gmilam+Nov 14 2005, 09:36 PM) QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 14 2005, 03:18 PM) Drawing straws is a way to illustrate propabilities. You do know that showing your "probabilities" is pointless don't you? We could be the 1 in 645,738,594,022,354... That's 15 decimal places. You have 11,999,985 decimal places to go.
Kaeroll
14th November 2005 - 10:07 PM
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 14 2005, 09:45 PM) You've been given the opportunity to receive Salvation. If I hear you correctly, you have rejected Jesus Christ because you believe in something that has zero (to at least 12,000,000 decimal places) probability of being true. And what, precisely, is the probability of your version of Christianity being correct over, say, Newguy's? Were his right, and we followed his offer of salvation, we'd be rejecting Jesus Christ because we believe in something that has something like 1 in 2,000,000,000 chance of being correct is true. By this, I mean there are about 2,000,000,000 Christians on this here earth, and each of them has his or her own interpretation of the Bible. And then there's the other few billion non-Christians who have their own interpretations of their own sacred texts, plus the atheists, each having his or her own world view. What evidence is there that your belief is the correct one? I've been offered "salvation" dozens of times over my life, by teachers, clergy, friends, and now you. Why am I to believe your version over theirs, anyone else's, or indeed, my own? You "know" that your belief is true. Fine, good for you. But I "know" my developing world view is right for me, at this time in my life, and I'm sure Nessus "knows" his beliefs are correct for him also. So by blindly accepting your spin of the Bible, he, I, or anyone else would be taking a 1 in 6,446,131,400* chance of being right. Not as bad as the 12,000,000 decimal places you claim are stacked against evolution, but still an enormous risk, I'd say - especially given that your belief is just that, whereas evolution has objective evidence supporting it. I realise your question was addressed at Nessus, but I felt I had to respond. It's not meant as an attack against you or your beliefs, which you have the right to hold, and which I respect. Newguy - in mentioning you above, I'm just using you as an example of another person with an equally valid view of the world and of Christianity. Cheers, Kaeroll *according to a quick Google search.
newguy
14th November 2005 - 11:40 PM
QUOTE (Kaeroll+Nov 14 2005, 10:07 PM) QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 14 2005, 09:45 PM) You've been given the opportunity to receive Salvation. If I hear you correctly, you have rejected Jesus Christ because you believe in something that has zero (to at least 12,000,000 decimal places) probability of being true. And what, precisely, is the probability of your version of Christianity being correct over, say, Newguy's? Were his right, and we followed his offer of salvation, we'd be rejecting Jesus Christ because we believe in something that has something like 1 in 2,000,000,000 chance of being correct is true. By this, I mean there are about 2,000,000,000 Christians on this here earth, and each of them has his or her own interpretation of the Bible. And then there's the other few billion non-Christians who have their own interpretations of their own sacred texts, plus the atheists, each having his or her own world view. What evidence is there that your belief is the correct one? I've been offered "salvation" dozens of times over my life, by teachers, clergy, friends, and now you. Why am I to believe your version over theirs, anyone else's, or indeed, my own? You "know" that your belief is true. Fine, good for you. But I "know" my developing world view is right for me, at this time in my life, and I'm sure Nessus "knows" his beliefs are correct for him also. So by blindly accepting your spin of the Bible, he, I, or anyone else would be taking a 1 in 6,446,131,400* chance of being right. Not as bad as the 12,000,000 decimal places you claim are stacked against evolution, but still an enormous risk, I'd say - especially given that your belief is just that, whereas evolution has objective evidence supporting it. I realise your question was addressed at Nessus, but I felt I had to respond. It's not meant as an attack against you or your beliefs, which you have the right to hold, and which I respect. Newguy - in mentioning you above, I'm just using you as an example of another person with an equally valid view of the world and of Christianity. Cheers, Kaeroll *according to a quick Google search. <br>Kaeroll: No problem. It might interest you to know that, apart from a couple of points that I've already addressed publicly with Jerry(although, just for the sake of honesty, he has never directly responded to one of my "points" and only partially responded to my other "point"...this doesn't mean he's rejected what I've said, maybe he's just pondering what I've written), I really don't think that we have a differing view of either Christianity or salvation...He might not agree...I don't know. Of course, I'm basing this statement on the limited knowledge that I have of Jerry and his beliefs. This opinion is subject to change, as is my opinion of everyone else on this forum, based on possible future actions. I have certainly agreed with a multitude of things that he has written concerning Christianity and salvation. I think I understand his method, although I fully understand it is apparently troubling to some. Jerry's method, and I don't say this to mock, kind of reminds me of some old war clips that I've seen on TV over the years. I remember seeing video footage of either those big ground guns that shoot heavy artillery(I can't remember what they're called) or "bombers"(as in airplanes dropping bombs) "clearing the way", so to speak, for the ground troops to go in. Spiritually speaking, some of Jerry's "Bible bombs"(I'm not using this term here in a derogatory way) have "cleared the way" for me to say a thing or two in the past. I would like to see him(only to a certain extent, I understand why he chooses mostly "The Word of God"...can't go any higher than that, at least not from our perspective) post a few more of his own words, as others have suggested. I think he can do this without compromising his position or his faith in his/our God. As long as his words line up with God's Words, I don't think there would be a problem. But, as I said, I think I fully understand why he does what he does and for the most part I have no complaints. Just an FYI. Everyone else seems to have offered their opinion of Jerry...just thought I'd use this opportunity to share my own opinion, for whatever it's worth.
Nessus
14th November 2005 - 11:56 PM
| QUOTE | According to the evolutionists, a lemur or a shrew became the roomful of monkeys and Shakespeare himself in less than four billion years by a random process.
<br>I apologise to you. You have worse than no understanding of evolution. You have just enough to "convince" yourself that its wrong, but have not gone one step further to truly understand evolution and how it works.
If you think evolution is just a random process then leave these forums, and come back when you understand. I cant be bothered arguing with an ignorant person.
newguy
15th November 2005 - 12:39 AM
Kaeroll: Thought I'd better add this. My comments about JerryDuke were related to the topics of Christianity and salvation, not necessarily "science". Nothing hidden in that statement, just a clarification so as not to possibly cause confusion. Thanks.
sinned34
15th November 2005 - 04:08 AM
| QUOTE | Is this the chance upon which you are willing to bet your life, including your eternal soul?
<br>Last time I went to the doctor (which, admittedly WAS a long while ago), he said that I was healthy enough for a man of my age. When I asked him about the health of my eternal soul, and he just stared at me blankly. Turns out that there is no documented medical evidence for a soul, much less one that is everlasting. Apparently, there were some ancient beliefs that the soul resided in the human heart, but scientific studies for the most part have found little function for that organ other than the pumping of blood. There apparently was hope for the medulla oblongata at some point, but the evidence seems to point away from an eternal soul. Perhaps the appendix is the soul receptacle? If so, what happens if it becomes inflamed and has to be removed? I've had xrays, blood tests, and a myriad of other examinations completed on me (no CAT scans to date), yet I have not seen any evidence of my having a soul. If I ever did have one, I think I may have left it at a bus stop when I was a child.
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | Is this the chance upon which you are willing to bet your life, including your eternal soul?
<br>Last time I went to the doctor (which, admittedly WAS a long while ago), he said that I was healthy enough for a man of my age. When I asked him about the health of my eternal soul, and he just stared at me blankly. Turns out that there is no documented medical evidence for a soul, much less one that is everlasting. Apparently, there were some ancient beliefs that the soul resided in the human heart, but scientific studies for the most part have found little function for that organ other than the pumping of blood. There apparently was hope for the medulla oblongata at some point, but the evidence seems to point away from an eternal soul. Perhaps the appendix is the soul receptacle? If so, what happens if it becomes inflamed and has to be removed? I've had xrays, blood tests, and a myriad of other examinations completed on me (no CAT scans to date), yet I have not seen any evidence of my having a soul. If I ever did have one, I think I may have left it at a bus stop when I was a child.
If I hear you correctly, you have rejected Jesus Christ because you believe in something that has zero (to at least 12,000,000 decimal places) probability of being true.
<br>Okay, so can somebody out there that is much better at numbers than I am please calculate the chances that an all-powerful god, able to create entire universes with just a few spoken words, just happened to come into existence? We have to be talking entire magnitudes of chance above 12,000,000 decimal places. I would think that the likelihood of the happenstance existence of such a creature would make 12,000,000 decimal places a piddling amount.
And that is just one of a myriad of reasons why I "reject Christ".
Spider-Man's Greatest Bible Stories
Messenger
15th November 2005 - 05:02 AM
RealityCheck
15th November 2005 - 08:00 AM
hehehe.
Jerry Duke
15th November 2005 - 05:54 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Kaeroll+Nov 14 2005, 10:07 PM) ... I mean there are about 2,000,000,000 Christians on this here earth, and each of them has his or her own interpretation of the Bible. And then there's the other few billion non-Christians who have their own interpretations of their own sacred texts, plus the atheists, each having his or her own world view. What evidence is there that your belief is the correct one?
I've been offered "salvation" dozens of times over my life, by teachers, clergy, friends, and now you. Why am I to believe your version over theirs, anyone else's, or indeed, my own? ... These are excellent q u e s t i o n s. If the interpretations are private, none of them is correct, but there is no necessity for choosing one of 2,000,000,000 interpretations. It does not matter which one is the most correct. The job of teaching us what the Bible means belongs to the Holy Spirit, and your decision to accept Jesus Christ is between you and God alone. God only wrote one Bible. If the Gospel is necessary for us to receive Salvation, it is God's responsibility to preserve it and make it available to us. Most English speaking people have "voted" for the King James Version, making it the number one best selling book of all time. I believe God has led me to trust in the King James Version (66 canonical books). I believe the evidence indicates that the modern versions are not reliable. If you are trying to decide between one version and another, let God lead you. If you ask God to help you believe the truth about Jesus Christ, and to keep you safe from false doctrine, I believe he will honor your prayer. This is a synopsis of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as presented by the Apostle Paul: Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (I Corinthians 15:1-9) Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? (I Corinthians 1:12-13) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 1:8-12) You do not need to be concerned about the worldly religions, none of them have a Saviour who is able to forgive your sins and give you a clean new heart. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:11-12) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
Nessus
15th November 2005 - 07:21 PM
| QUOTE | God only wrote one Bible
God only wrote one Koran too
Jerry Duke
15th November 2005 - 09:02 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Nessus+Nov 14 2005, 11:56 PM) | QUOTE | According to the evolutionists, a lemur or a shrew became the roomful of monkeys and Shakespeare himself in less than four billion years by a random process.
<br>I apologise to you. You have worse than no understanding of evolution. You have just enough to "convince" yourself that its wrong, but have not gone one step further to truly understand evolution and how it works.
If you think evolution is just a random process then leave these forums, and come back when you understand. I cant be bothered arguing with an ignorant person.
I've proved that the "theory" of Evolution is false based on the proof that was given to me in college.
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. (I Timothy 6:20-21)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
adoucette
16th November 2005 - 04:39 AM
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 15 2005, 09:02 PM) I've proved that the "theory" of Evolution is false based on the proof that was given to me in college.
That wasn't a "proof" of Evolution, it was an ANALOGY, and as I pointed out in earlier posts, a BAD analogy at that. Proving that a BAD analogy is "wrong", is not the same as proving that EVOLUTION is wrong. And, I suspect, you know that. Arthur
Jerry Duke
16th November 2005 - 03:23 PM
QUOTE (adoucette+Nov 16 2005, 04:39 AM) QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 15 2005, 09:02 PM) I've proved that the "theory" of Evolution is false based on the proof that was given to me in college.
That wasn't a "proof" of Evolution, it was an ANALOGY, and as I pointed out in earlier posts, a BAD analogy at that. Proving that a BAD analogy is "wrong", is not the same as proving that EVOLUTION is wrong. And, I suspect, you know that. Arthur It was presented as proof by the professor. I think it represents an inevitable consequence of the theory. If variation is dependendent on random mutation, then ipso facto randomness must be able to account for everything that exists. I understand that some think that natural selection increases the odds, but I have yet to see any proof of that idea. Natural selection only decreases the population. Adding new variety to the population only comes from mutation. Adaptation to change in the environment does not add new variety, it only makes visible the capacity for variation that already exists. I doubt that the professor ever actually tried to calculate the probability of his "proof". If he had run the numbers, he would have known that it was false. If he passed it on knowing it was false, that would make him a liar, but I have seen no evidence to indicate that he knew the statement was false. I firmly believe that this is an example of someone who had turned away from the truth and had succumbed to "strong delusion" as described in Scripture. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (II Thessalonians 2:11-12)
Grumpy
16th November 2005 - 09:56 PM
Jerry Duke Here is a simple example of selection. We have a pole. we have a ring on the pole. The ring has a ratchet mechanism which only allows movement in the verticle direction(up). This is a selector for our mechanical selection. We have a coin which we flip, heads is up, tails is down. This is our random mutator for our mechanical mutations. We flip the coin and it's heads(up). Our ring rises one notch because our selector allows it to(up is selected for) We flip the coin again and this time it is tails. The ring does not move, our rachet does not select for down. It rejects the down impulse. No matter how many mutations(coin flips) or what they are(heads or tails) our mechanical selector will only select the up(heads) and reject the down(tails) mutations. Our ring will get higher and higher. If you haven't guessed by now, up is the direction of survival. This simple analogy does not account for all of the facets of natural selection but it does show how selecting for survival can drive change in an organism. Grumpy 
Jerry Duke
28th November 2005 - 05:42 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Grumpy+Nov 16 2005, 09:56 PM) Jerry Duke Here is a simple example of selection. ... up is the direction of survival. This simple analogy does not account for all of the facets of natural selection but it does show how selecting for survival can drive change in an organism. Grumpy Here is a s p r e a d s h e e t based on your Natural Selection scenario. It compares the total accumulation of favorable outcomes based on survival versus the total accumulation of favorable outcomes based on the total number of mutations where every combination is allowed to "survive" whether it is "up" or "down". This model illustrates that Natural Selection decreases the odds. Natural SelectionI returned, and saw under the s u n, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. (Ecclesiastes 9:11) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
J. Wensveen
28th November 2005 - 05:56 PM
Mutations happen all the time, and there are people born with mutations all the time, but as long as there is no enviromental pressure upon those mutations, they will not select themselves out, they will just migrate slowly through the population. But when there is an external change that requires adaptions, those with the favourable mutation already in them will procreate and you will get a diversion in species depending on the location where they procreate. After a long time without any crossbreeding, the species will diverge.
Just look at lions and tigers, they have a hard time nowadays to create viable offspring. Even skin color is a mutation based on enviromental selection, but this mutation has little effect on procreation and species diversion, except for what racists try to promote. However, size does have an impact.
Grumpy
28th November 2005 - 06:17 PM
Jerry Duke
| QUOTE | Here is a s p r e a d s h e e t based on your Natural Selection scenario. It compares the total accumulation of favorable outcomes based on survival versus the total accumulation of favorable outcomes based on the total number of mutations where every combination is allowed to "survive" whether it is "up" or "down". This model illustrates that Natural Selection decreases the odds
<br>I notice you base your analysis on the number of favorable outcomes in a row, an irrelevant factor that negates your whole spreadsheet. So that you can understand your error I will repeat my analogy.
Given a pole(up is favorable, down unfavorable mutations) with a ring(species of organism) on it that has a mechanism(natural selection) which only allows upward(favorable) movements to occur(survive). Our random generator is a coin, heads is upward(favorable) impulse(mutation), tails is a downward(unfavorable) impulse(mutation) applied to our ring(species of organism)
Flip the coin 10 times;
!. Heads(H) the ring rises one step(the mutation(M) is selected)
2.Tails(T) the ring does not move(M is not selected)
3.T ring does not move
4.T ring does not move
5.H ring moves up one notch
6.H ring moves up one notch
7.T ring does not move
8.H ring moves up one notch
9.H ring moves up one notch
10.T ring does not move
5 Heads 5 Tails Ring has moved up 5 notches. Only favorable mutations are selected no matter the order or the number of coin flips. That is a simplified description of evolution(descent with modification with natural selection)
Grumpy 
MXWordNerd
28th November 2005 - 07:18 PM
And here's an example of the difference betwee supposed macro-evolution and micro-evolution (neither of which are terms science really uses):
Organism ABC becomes organism BCD. That is micro-evolution, which many creationists do accept is possible. It's still mostly the same animal with a small change.
This is macro-evolution:
abc-bcd, bcd-cde, cde-def, def-efg, efg-fgh, fgh-ghi, ghi-hij, hij-ijk.
Now, the result - ijk - is completely different from abc.
As you can see, in simple terms, "macro-evolution" is simply a collection of micro-evolutions...
Jerry Duke
28th November 2005 - 08:16 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Grumpy+Nov 28 2005, 06:17 PM) ...Flip the coin 10 times; !. Heads(H) the ring rises one step(the mutation(M) is selected) 2.Tails(T) the ring does not move(M is not selected) 3.T ring does not move 4.T ring does not move 5.H ring moves up one notch 6.H ring moves up one notch 7.T ring does not move 8.H ring moves up one notch 9.H ring moves up one notch 10.T ring does not move 5 Heads 5 Tails Ring has moved up 5 notches. Only favorable mutations are selected no matter the order or the number of coin flips. That is a simplified description of evolution(descent with modification with natural selection) Grumpy Why bother to flip the coin? O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. (II Timothy 6:20-21) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
MXWordNerd
28th November 2005 - 08:24 PM
Jerry Duke
28th November 2005 - 08:34 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Messenger+Nov 15 2005, 05:02 AM) ... "What do you mean 'It's a bit muddy'?" ... <br> For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. (Romans 3:3-4) And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward: But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea. (Exodus 14:15-16) And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left. (Exodus 14:21-22) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
MXWordNerd
28th November 2005 - 08:38 PM
MXWordNerd
28th November 2005 - 08:43 PM
Jerry Duke
28th November 2005 - 08:46 PM
There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16:19-31) Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Nessus+Nov 15 2005, 07:21 PM) | QUOTE | God only wrote one Bible
God only wrote one K... too
<b>But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8-9)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
newguy
28th November 2005 - 08:46 PM
QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 28 2005, 07:18 PM) And here's an example of the difference betwee supposed macro-evolution and micro-evolution (neither of which are terms science really uses):
Organism ABC becomes organism BCD. That is micro-evolution, which many creationists do accept is possible. It's still mostly the same animal with a small change.
This is macro-evolution:
abc-bcd, bcd-cde, cde-def, def-efg, efg-fgh, fgh-ghi, ghi-hij, hij-ijk.
Now, the result - ijk - is completely different from abc.
As you can see, in simple terms, "macro-evolution" is simply a collection of micro-evolutions... l, m, n, o, p...q, r, s...t, u, v,...w, x, y and z. Now I know my a, b, c's...won't you come and sing with me? Sorry, I've been teaching my daughter the alphabet and I just lost it there for a minute. 
Jerry Duke
28th November 2005 - 08:56 PM
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (John 1:1-5)
Kaeroll
28th November 2005 - 08:59 PM
Jerry: Half serious question. Has anyone ever said, "Word up, brother", in greeting to you?
MXWordNerd
28th November 2005 - 09:07 PM
newguy
28th November 2005 - 09:11 PM
Figured I'd beat Jerry to the punch on this one. Here goes:
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."(I Corinthians 1:18)
sinned34
28th November 2005 - 10:36 PM
| QUOTE | This model illustrates that Natural Selection decreases the odds.
Natural Selection
<br>Sorry, Jerry - but I practice safe computer sex, and I don't download office documents from people I don't know. You understand, viruses and the like. I don't know where your modem's been!
Nessus
29th November 2005 - 12:13 AM
Jerry Duke, not only do you misquote me (does the word Koran seem to hurt you? like holy water and vampires possibly?) you didn't even answer!
Why do I have to read all this rubbish?, where did I put that ban button?(Nessus 1:1-2)
Grumpy
29th November 2005 - 01:00 AM
Jerry
| QUOTE | Why bother to flip the coin?
<br>Because the coin generates the random mutation which drives the whole process, without the coin flip(mutation) nothing ever changes. Favorable mutations(heads) are selected, unfavorable are not selected, thus the selected mutations are always favorable for the species. Simple and very effective, if a little slow.
Grumpy
Jerry Duke
29th November 2005 - 04:41 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Grumpy+Nov 29 2005, 01:00 AM) Jerry
| QUOTE | Why bother to flip the coin?
<br>Because the coin generates the random mutation which drives the whole process, without the coin flip(mutation) nothing ever changes. Favorable mutations(heads) are selected, unfavorable are not selected, thus the selected mutations are always favorable for the species. Simple and very effective, if a little slow.
Grumpy
If the process does not allow fatal mutations (Tails), flipping the coin appears to be an incomplete metaphor, the coin in this case having only one side which affects the process (Heads).
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | Why bother to flip the coin?
<br>Because the coin generates the random mutation which drives the whole process, without the coin flip(mutation) nothing ever changes. Favorable mutations(heads) are selected, unfavorable are not selected, thus the selected mutations are always favorable for the species. Simple and very effective, if a little slow.
Grumpy
If the process does not allow fatal mutations (Tails), flipping the coin appears to be an incomplete metaphor, the coin in this case having only one side which affects the process (Heads).
"It is entirely in line with the accidental nature of mutations that extensive tests have agreed in showing the vast majority of them detrimental to the organism in its job of surviving and reproducing -- good ones are so rare we can consider them all bad." (Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists 11:331)
<b>I returned, and saw under the s u n, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. (Ecclesiastes 9:11-12)
How to become a Christian:
• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
• Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31)
• Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27)
Creation Proof
How to be Saved
.
Jerry Duke
29th November 2005 - 05:03 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 28 2005, 09:07 PM) ... beam me up Scotty... <b> Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:17-18) Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt. (Matthew 26:38-39) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
Jerry Duke
29th November 2005 - 05:40 PM
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.QUOTE (Kaeroll+Nov 28 2005, 08:59 PM) Jerry: Half serious question. Has anyone ever said, "Word up, brother", in greeting to you? Yes. I learned to be a Christian in an urban church in the deep south where I was often the only "honky" in attendance, but where I was also accepted as a brother. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: (Acts 17:26-27) How to become a Christian:• Admit that you are a sinner. You're not alone - "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) • Believe in Jesus. The Bible says, "... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:31) • Commit your life to Christ. If you are ready to turn your life over to Jesus, pray a prayer like this: Lord Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I know there is nothing I can do to get rid of my sin. Forgive me and take away my sin. Come into my life and and make me a brand-new person. Help me to follow You and learn more about You. I give my life to You. Amen.But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2:25-27) Creation ProofHow to be Saved.
Grumpy
29th November 2005 - 10:00 PM
Jerry
| QUOTE | If the process does not allow fatal mutations (Tails), flipping the coin appears to be an incomplete metaphor, the coin in this case having only one side which affects the process (Heads).
<br>That is the point!!! That is why evolution is such a powerful force for favorable change in a species!!! Fatal mutations are not allowed to be passed on to the next generation, favorable ones are. If the fatal mutations outnumber the favorable ones 100 to 1 all 100 of the fatal mutations(being fatal to the organism who has it) kill that organism before it can reproduce thus stopping those fatal mutations from being passed on. The 1 favorable mutation IS passed on to the next generation and the next etc., so that evolution becomes the accumulation of more and more favorable mutations. So it does not really matter how rare a favorable mutation is because it is always selected. Some neutral mutations(neither favorable or unfavorable) are also passed on.
Grumpy
Messenger
29th November 2005 - 11:03 PM
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 28 2005, 02:46 PM) QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 28 2005, 07:18 PM) And here's an example of the difference betwee supposed macro-evolution and micro-evolution (neither of which are terms science really uses):
Organism ABC becomes organism BCD. That is micro-evolution, which many creationists do accept is possible. It's still mostly the same animal with a small change.
This is macro-evolution:
abc-bcd, bcd-cde, cde-def, def-efg, efg-fgh, fgh-ghi, ghi-hij, hij-ijk.
Now, the result - ijk - is completely different from abc.
As you can see, in simple terms, "macro-evolution" is simply a collection of micro-evolutions... l, m, n, o, p...q, r, s...t, u, v,...w, x, y and z. Now I know my a, b, c's...won't you come and sing with me? Sorry, I've been teaching my daughter the alphabet and I just lost it there for a minute. During the 4 days the egg travels through the fallopian tube, it divides into two cells, then four, then eight, frequently changing configurations and adding complex functions. Based on the 'elementary' interpretation of macro evolution according to MX: abc-bcd, bcd-cde, cde-def, def-efg, efg-fgh, fgh-ghi, ghi-hij, hij-ijk. This is not known to be happening in any animal or human species living today. Except if you look at it from the perspective of the egg, then I could see it following this path, leading to greater and greater complexity. But I don't think that's what is meant by this elementary interpretation. Design would be more like: abc-cba1, abc-bda1, abc-bce1, abc-abd2, abc-fce1….. Always staying the same - but allowing for individuality. The slight variations (physical characteristics = 'cba'), occasional defects ('1'), and an apparent ability to rectify defects over time. No exceptions in the 'abc' (the foundation), but some exceptions in the physical characteristics - the 'cba' and defects the '1'. The egg divides into two cells….. which is basically what evolution is - with the exception that they argue that our cells have the DNA built in. But they cannot prove that the first cell (from whence evolution began) did not have this DNA also. Consider this… We were designed to inherit the natural (the physical part) body of our parents (not the spirit). Scientists can appreciate the natural laws put in place (by the Designer) for this effect to be actualized. We inherit physical features such as hair & eye color, facial features, and to a lesser extent physical size/shape. (A gift from the Designer). This physical world, and all matter (which includes our physical bodies) will decay and pass away. (scientists know this as well) It is only natural (physical) that there would be occasional defects along the way. Not that it was originally designed this way - but because we live in a 'physical' world that has death and decay.
Demon77
29th November 2005 - 11:56 PM
| QUOTE | The egg divides into two cells…..
which is basically what evolution is - with the exception that they argue that our cells have the DNA built in. But they cannot prove that the first cell (from whence evolution began) did not have this DNA also.
<br>This is an aspect of evolution?
Or is this just the process of development a fetilized embryo takes as it develops into a fetus?
Not saying that evolution has not influenced this process.
MXWordNerd
30th November 2005 - 01:11 AM
QUOTE (Messenger+Nov 29 2005, 11:03 PM) QUOTE (newguy+Nov 28 2005, 02:46 PM) QUOTE (MXWordNerd+Nov 28 2005, 07:18 PM) And here's an example of the difference betwee supposed macro-evolution and micro-evolution (neither of which are terms science really uses):
Organism ABC becomes organism BCD. That is micro-evolution, which many creationists do accept is possible. It's still mostly the same animal with a small change.
This is macro-evolution:
abc-bcd, bcd-cde, cde-def, def-efg, efg-fgh, fgh-ghi, ghi-hij, hij-ijk.
Now, the result - ijk - is completely different from abc.
As you can see, in simple terms, "macro-evolution" is simply a collection of micro-evolutions... l, m, n, o, p...q, r, s...t, u, v,...w, x, y and z. Now I know my a, b, c's...won't you come and sing with me? Sorry, I've been teaching my daughter the alphabet and I just lost it there for a minute. During the 4 days the egg travels through the fallopian tube, it divides into two cells, then four, then eight, frequently changing configurations and adding complex functions. Based on the 'elementary' interpretation of macro evolution according to MX: abc-bcd, bcd-cde, cde-def, def-efg, efg-fgh, fgh-ghi, ghi-hij, hij-ijk. This is not known to be happening in any animal or human species living today. Except if you look at it from the perspective of the egg, then I could see it following this path, leading to greater and greater complexity. The development of a fetus is not evolution, by the way. So you're comparing the proverbial apples to oranges. Secondly, it takes THOUSANDS or MILLIONS of years for noticeable physical changes to occur. Therefore, you must look into the fossil record, which we have. It's rare that you can observe evolution by natural selection during one human lifetime, although it has been observed. I refer you again to the story of the moths around London. Do you remember the story I told? It's true. I'll repeat it if you have forgotten or didn't see it.
Demon77
30th November 2005 - 04:28 AM
I will give you another example and point you to a book that I have once again picked up to read: Carl Sagan - Cosmos
Sagan calls 'Natural Selection' with human influence Artificial Selection - people are getting very good at making this happen in a one of our lifetimes. I think its fitting.
The example is of the Heike crab from the Japanese Inland Sea.
Just food for thought.
~Demon
Messenger
30th November 2005 - 05:29 AM
quotes by MX
| QUOTE | The development of a fetus is not evolution, by the way. So you're comparing the proverbial apples to oranges.
<br>Well, technically (that was for Steveo) I'm comparing apes to humans. No apples and oranges in this bunch, although I can think of a few fruitcakes....
Seriously now I realize that a growing baby is not your definition of evolution - however - I believe this is how God creates human beings. It starts out as one cell, divides into two, then four, then into an ever more complex being until it 'evolves' into a human being.
Evolution says that the planet (earth) evolved in much the same way - the similarities are striking! ........(if I were newguy, which I'm not, I would probably interject something like 'you are of your father, the devil, so you are blind to the creative works of the Lord) (LOL - I hope you guys are laughing too - because I just think I am so funny sometimes. disclaimer: I'm not laughing in a bad way). Anywaaays,.......
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | The development of a fetus is not evolution, by the way. So you're comparing the proverbial apples to oranges.
<br>Well, technically (that was for Steveo) I'm comparing apes to humans. No apples and oranges in this bunch, although I can think of a few fruitcakes....
Seriously now I realize that a growing baby is not your definition of evolution - however - I believe this is how God creates human beings. It starts out as one cell, divides into two, then four, then into an ever more complex being until it 'evolves' into a human being.
Evolution says that the planet (earth) evolved in much the same way - the similarities are striking! ........(if I were newguy, which I'm not, I would probably interject something like 'you are of your father, the devil, so you are blind to the creative works of the Lord) (LOL - I hope you guys are laughing too - because I just think I am so funny sometimes. disclaimer: I'm not laughing in a bad way). Anywaaays,.......
Secondly, it takes THOUSANDS or MILLIONS of years for noticeable physical changes to occur. Therefore, you must look into the fossil record, which we have.
<br>You could compress billions of years of evolution into 9 months and get the same result. God did it in six days.
Besides, there's that nasty gap theory to deal with. You're missing a few marbles, I mean fossils.
Plus, I just read somewhere - that monkeys don't sweat. Is that true - and how do you account for what happens to you after a heavy duty workout?
Another thing I heard is that humans are the only species (when compared to primates - to be technically correct) capable of having blue eyes, and curly hair.
Despite the advanced training given to monkeys and apes today, they will still never be able to read a book, understand a joke (so if you don't laugh at my funny above, then you're a monkey, ha/ha). They cannot drive a truck, fly a plane, sing the national anthem, or recite the Lord's Prayer.
| QUOTE | It's rare that you can observe evolution by natural selection during one human lifetime, although it has been observed.
<br>Prove it. Shew forth the evidence.
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | It's rare that you can observe evolution by natural selection during one human lifetime, although it has been observed.
<br>Prove it. Shew forth the evidence.
I refer you again to the story of the moths around London.
<br>That was a fraud. A set -up.
In additiion, I would like to add that there are many major differences between humans and monkeys. The gaps have not/cannot be fully explained. Why did we lose the fur (a disadvantage?)? Why does our skin more resemble a dolphins than a monkey's? Why is our brain more interested in learning, laughing, and loving than in picking fleas off each other?
Now - just to be fair to our little monkey friends.....(we might be intelligent - but I never said we were sane)
Try to form an image in your head of the U.S-Russian Space Race. Can you imagine two tribes of monkeys, one in South America and one in Africa racing to be the first tribe to put a rocket into space? Monkeys sawing, filling up a cyclindrical object with highly flammable liquid, lighting it and sending it into space. Ooo-ooo-oooo. Inevitably there would be tragedy, charred monkeys, but the home country monkeys would not be deterred in their crazy quest. Competitiveness would increase to the point where small, brave monkeys in cute little spacesuits would be sent up into space just to collect rocks for other monkeys in white lab coats. And why did they want the rocks? To look at them! If monkeys attempted this, they would be deemed absolutely insane!
RealityCheck
30th November 2005 - 06:20 AM
QUOTE (Messenger+Nov 30 2005, 05:29 AM)
| QUOTE |
Plus, I just read somewhere - that monkeys don't sweat. Is that true - and how do you account for what happens to you after a heavy duty workout?
<!--QuoteEnd--> |
Oh Messenger.
You were so busy yucking it up that you obviously did not notice that you have shot yourself in the foot. For your information and (forlorn hope) edification, there is at least one tribe of South American Indians who evolved in a rainforest habitat that is ALWAYS TOO COOL AND HUMID for any 'sweat' to evaporate AT ALL. So NO GO for 'evaporative cooling'; hence THESE HUMANS HAVE FEW IF ANY SWEAT GLANDS because they lived in an environment where sweat glands and sweating would be USELESS EXPENDITURE of energy; AND could lead to FUNGAL INFECTIONS due to always-moist skin from non-evaporated sweat. Monkeys evolving in similar HUMID jungles have no need for sweat glands, and in fact could be 'unsuccessful strategy' to have them (fungus, unnecessary energy expenditure etc.); hence no sweat glands by NATURAL SELECTION. THAT'S evolution in action, Messenger.
RealityCheck.
.PS: There is also the fact that some animals with very thick fur do not have sweat glands because the breeze/air could not penetrate (or the moisture cannot 'wick' to the surface fast enough) for evaporative cooling via sweat to be viable strategy; hence 'sweat glands' for such animals are NOT NATURALLY SELECTED-FOR BY ENVIRONMENT. Which is why dogs 'PANT' to cool the blood going through the capillaries in their mouths. RC.
.
Demon77
30th November 2005 - 06:49 AM
QUOTE ('mess o daddy'+) I believe this is how God creates human beings. It starts out as one cell, divides into two, then four, then into an ever more complex being until it 'evolves' into a human being. <br>Key phrase here is 'I believe' - what you believe is not fact, and it is merely speculation. Next point the word 'evolve' I think you have specifically chosen for this application fully knowing the word 'Develops' would be the correct word to use. Nice try though. Now to the next lovely statement: QUOTE ('mess o daddy'+) You could compress billions of years of evolution into 9 months and get the same result. God did it in six days. <br>You can't, don't try! You can see the evidence of billions of years in the 9 month process. God did it six days? Wow, He was a Busy being! Do you take everything in the bible literally? Once again this is your belief and therefore you have bear the burden of proof.
MXWordNerd
30th November 2005 - 07:20 AM
QUOTE (Messenger+Nov 30 2005, 05:29 AM) quotes by MX
| QUOTE | The development of a fetus is not evolution, by the way. So you're comparing the proverbial apples to oranges.
<br>Well, technically (that was for Steveo) I'm comparing apes to humans. No apples and oranges in this bunch, although I can think of a few fruitcakes....
Seriously now I realize that a growing baby is not your definition of evolution - however - I believe this is how God creates human beings. It starts out as one cell, divides into two, then four, then into an ever more complex being until it 'evolves' into a human being.
Evolution says that the planet (earth) evolved in much the same way - the similarities are striking! ........(if I were newguy, which I'm not, I would probably interject something like 'you are of your father, the devil, so you are blind to the creative works of the Lord) (LOL - I hope you guys are laughing too - because I just think I am so funny sometimes. disclaimer: I'm not laughing in a bad way). Anywaaays,.......
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | The development of a fetus is not evolution, by the way. So you're comparing the proverbial apples to oranges.
<br>Well, technically (that was for Steveo) I'm comparing apes to humans. No apples and oranges in this bunch, although I can think of a few fruitcakes....
Seriously now I realize that a growing baby is not your definition of evolution - however - I believe this is how God creates human beings. It starts out as one cell, divides into two, then four, then into an ever more complex being until it 'evolves' into a human being.
Evolution says that the planet (earth) evolved in much the same way - the similarities are striking! ........(if I were newguy, which I'm not, I would probably interject something like 'you are of your father, the devil, so you are blind to the creative works of the Lord) (LOL - I hope you guys are laughing too - because I just think I am so funny sometimes. disclaimer: I'm not laughing in a bad way). Anywaaays,.......
Secondly, it takes THOUSANDS or MILLIONS of years for noticeable physical changes to occur. Therefore, you must look into the fossil record, which we have.
<br>You could compress billions of years of evolution into 9 months and get the same result. God did it in six days.
Besides, there's that nasty gap theory to deal with. You're missing a few marbles, I mean fossils.
Plus, I just read somewhere - that monkeys don't sweat. Is that true - and how do you account for what happens to you after a heavy duty workout?
Another thing I heard is that humans are the only species (when compared to primates - to be technically correct) capable of having blue eyes, and curly hair.
Despite the advanced training given to monkeys and apes today, they will still never be able to read a book, understand a joke (so if you don't laugh at my funny above, then you're a monkey, ha/ha). They cannot drive a truck, fly a plane, sing the national anthem, or recite the Lord's Prayer.
| QUOTE | It's rare that you can observe evolution by natural selection during one human lifetime, although it has been observed.
<br>Prove it. Shew forth the evidence.
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | It's rare that you can observe evolution by natural selection during one human lifetime, although it has been observed.
<br>Prove it. Shew forth the evidence.
I refer you again to the story of the moths around London.
<br>That was a fraud. A set -up.
In additiion, I would like to add that there are many major differences between humans and monkeys. The gaps have not/cannot be fully explained. Why did we lose the fur (a disadvantage?)? Why does our skin more resemble a dolphins than a monkey's? Why is our brain more interested in learning, laughing, and loving than in picking fleas off each other?
Now - just to be fair to our little monkey friends.....(we might be intelligent - but I never said we were sane)
Try to form an image in your head of the U.S-Russian Space Race. Can you imagine two tribes of monkeys, one in South America and one in Africa racing to be the first tribe to put a rocket into space? Monkeys sawing, filling up a cyclindrical object with highly flammable liquid, lighting it and sending it into space. Ooo-ooo-oooo. Inevitably there would be tragedy, charred monkeys, but the home country monkeys would not be deterred in their crazy quest. Competitiveness would increase to the point where small, brave monkeys in cute little spacesuits would be sent up into space just to collect rocks for other monkeys in white lab coats. And why did they want the rocks? To look at them! If monkeys attempted this, they would be deemed absolutely insane! Nothing you said there made any lick of sense.
But let me ask you where your proof is about the moths and their well-documented evolution around London being a fraud.
Meaning: Show me the story not on a religious website or from a religious source.
Messenger
30th November 2005 - 07:38 AM
RC,'evaporative cooling' - what happens to these individuals when they move to a different climate where sweat would be advantageous? Would this be considered micro-evolution? Would this fit within my abc explanation posted in one of the other threads? abc-bac1, abc-dbc1, abc-bca2........ What I actually said was: "Plus, I just read somewhere - that monkeys don't sweat. Is that true - and how do you account for what happens to you after a heavy duty workout?" I don't see how this is shooting myself in the foot. I asked you if it was true that monkeys don't sweat - I didn't say humans do or don't sweat. And by the way, that's not called evolution - that's called superb design. The sweat issue wasn't that big of a deal to me - I just remember reading that somewhere recently - I don't have a source for it - so I'm not sure where they were going with that. Also, we're comparing monkeys to humans - not dogs to humans. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Demon666,If I hear you say 'I believe' - I will make sure I don't, believe you. QUOTE Once again this is your belief and therefore you have bear the burden of proof <br>6000 years of historical documents and artifacts that hold up to scrutiny, attack, investigation, war, and the gates of hell. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MX,QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | Once again this is your belief and therefore you have bear the burden of proof
<br>6000 years of historical documents and artifacts that hold up to scrutiny, attack, investigation, war, and the gates of hell.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MX,
MX quote:
Nothing you said there made any lick of sense.
But let me ask you where your proof is about the moths and their well-documented evolution around London being a fraud.
Meaning: Show me the story not on a religious website or from a religious source.
Sorry - just keep trying - or ask more specific questions.
I will provide you with a scientific source for evolution fraud that doesn't come from a religious website/source..................- when you provide me with evolution proof that comes from a a religious website/source. Fair enough?
Since you don't trust religious people - then might I suggest you ask your co-horts on this forum - I'm sure Grumpy, RC, Genesplicer, Adoucette, and others, can explain this fraud to you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So........everything else in my post stands? Good. Evolution disproved 11/30/05! (for the umpteenth time)
Nessus
30th November 2005 - 07:43 AM
| QUOTE | Prove it. Shew forth the evidence.
<br>That would be a waste of time on you, why it would be akin to something like :
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | Prove it. Shew forth the evidence.
<br>That would be a waste of time on you, why it would be akin to something like :
Despite the advanced training given to monkeys and apes today, they will still never be able to read a book, understand a joke
Despite the hours of time people have spent trying to lift that ignorance off your shoulders, you amazingly presist in refusing knowledge of science. Even if someone cited a thousand refrecences to this, it would not change your mind, there is absoutly no point trying to convinced such a closed individual such as yourself.
| QUOTE | So........everything else in my post stands? Good. Evolution disproved 11/30/05! (for the umpteenth time) biggrin.gif
<br>Excellent work! well done there, I applaude you for finally putting this debate at an end. But what is this? you havent convinced anyone here scientifically that evolution is false? oh well back to the religion boards you go.
MXWordNerd
30th November 2005 - 07:47 AM
QUOTE (Messenger+Nov 30 2005, 07:38 AM) RC,
'evaporative cooling' - what happens to these individuals when they move to a different climate where sweat would be advantageous? Would this be considered micro-evolution? Would this fit within my abc explanation posted in one of the other threads?
abc-bac1, abc-dbc1, abc-bca2........
What I actually said was:
"Plus, I just read somewhere - that monkeys don't sweat. Is that true - and how do you account for what happens to you after a heavy duty workout?"
I don't see how this is shooting myself in the foot. I asked you if it was true that monkeys don't sweat - I didn't say humans do or don't sweat. And by the way, that's not called evolution - that's called superb design.
The sweat issue wasn't that big of a deal to me - I just remember reading that somewhere recently - I don't have a source for it - so I'm not sure where they were going with that. Also, we're comparing monkeys to humans - not dogs to humans.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Demon666,
If I hear you say 'I believe' - I will make sure I don't, believe you.
| QUOTE | Once again this is your belief and therefore you have bear the burden of proof
<br>6000 years of historical documents and artifacts that hold up to scrutiny, attack, investigation, war, and the gates of hell.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MX,
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | Once again this is your belief and therefore you have bear the burden of proof
<br>6000 years of historical documents and artifacts that hold up to scrutiny, attack, investigation, war, and the gates of hell.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MX,
MX quote:
Nothing you said there made any lick of sense.
But let me ask you where your proof is about the moths and their well-documented evolution around London being a fraud.
Meaning: Show me the story not on a religious website or from a religious source.
<br>Sorry - just keep trying - or ask more specific questions.
I will provide you with a scientific source for evolution fraud that doesn't come from a religious website/source..................- when you provide me with evolution proof that comes from a a religious website/source. Fair enough?
Since you don't trust religious people - then might I suggest you ask your co-horts on this forum - I'm sure Grumpy, RC, Genesplicer, Adoucette, and others, can explain this fraud to you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So........everything else in my post stands? Good. Evolution disproved 11/30/05! (for the umpteenth time) Exactly.
So you don't have the proof.
That's what I thought.
Demon77
30th November 2005 - 07:54 AM
QUOTE (Messenger+Nov 30 2005, 07:38 AM) Demon666,
If I hear you say 'I believe' - I will make sure I don't, believe you.
| QUOTE | Once again this is your belief and therefore you have bear the burden of proof
<br>6000 years of historical documents and artifacts that hold up to scrutiny, attack, investigation, war, and the gates of hell.
I am glad I able to associate, even through text, with such an open minded person.
Your Belief is not Fact! You don't believe when you KNOW!
Do you understand the very foundation on which your 'beliefs' are based off of?
If you have belief you don't even have faith! If you have faith you don't have Knowledge! And if you don't have Knowledge what do you have?
Where is your christianity?
Belief doesn't save.
Thats like hanging from a Noose believing your god is going to save you before you neck snaps or you suffocate!
You done nothing to disprove evolution! The only thing you have done is to once again point out your undying ignorance, close mindedness, and childishness.
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | Once again this is your belief and therefore you have bear the burden of proof
<br>6000 years of historical documents and artifacts that hold up to scrutiny, attack, investigation, war, and the gates of hell.
I am glad I able to associate, even through text, with such an open minded person.
Your Belief is not Fact! You don't believe when you KNOW!
Do you understand the very foundation on which your 'beliefs' are based off of?
If you have belief you don't even have faith! If you have faith you don't have Knowledge! And if you don't have Knowledge what do you have?
Where is your christianity?
Belief doesn't save.
Thats like hanging from a Noose believing your god is going to save you before you neck snaps or you suffocate!
You done nothing to disprove evolution! The only thing you have done is to once again point out your undying ignorance, close mindedness, and childishness.
6000 years of historical documents that ... hold up to scrutiny, attack, investigation
<br>Pathetic attempt once again - they don't seem to be holding up now.
Messenger
30th November 2005 - 09:31 AM
It is God who says 'My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge'
Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
But for starters......I know God exists - because I was transformed by the Holy Spirit. This was a physical experience.
My appearance - when I looked in the mirror - stayed the same. But my entire being suddenly knew that God was real.
This has happened to billions of people over the last 2000 years. There are volumes and volumes of books and testimonies written by people who have been transformed in this fashion.
To say that this is not happening is as ridiculous as saying that the sun doesn't exist.
That's the reason we Christians seem so arrogant. It's because we know. But we are trying so hard to share it with you, and the world. We just haven't got the procedure nailed down yet.
But it is God who calls you - and you must respond. All we can do is plant seeds and try to help.
+Knock Knock.
Who's there?
+This is the Lord
Yeah, right. No really, who's there?
+I AM, the Lord
Whaddya want?
+May I come in?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The rest is up to you.
G'night
RealityCheck
30th November 2005 - 10:12 AM
QUOTE (Messenger+Nov 30 2005, 07:38 AM) RC,
'evaporative cooling' - what happens to these individuals when they move to a different climate where sweat would be advantageous? Would this be considered micro-evolution? Would this fit within my abc explanation posted in one of the other threads?
abc-bac1, abc-dbc1, abc-bca2........
What I actually said was:
"Plus, I just read somewhere - that monkeys don't sweat. Is that true - and how do you account for what happens to you after a heavy duty workout?"
I don't see how this is shooting myself in the foot. I asked you if it was true that monkeys don't sweat - I didn't say humans do or don't sweat. And by the way, that's not called evolution - that's called superb design.
The sweat issue wasn't that big of a deal to me - I just remember reading that somewhere recently - I don't have a source for it - so I'm not sure where they were going with that. Also, we're comparing monkeys to humans - not dogs to humans.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<br> Oh Messenger. Do ALL of YOUR and SoLoveds' type of "christians" LIE and TWIST as happen in your and her/his posts to us here? You and all here know very well that in the context of that statement regarding evolution and monkeys and humans, you were implying that because monkeys don't sweat then man CAN'T have evolved from monkeys because we DO have sweat glands. The only problem was that I called you out on that one. And now you 'twist' in the best traditions of your 'mentor' SoLoved. You are an adept pupil. He/she couldn't have picked a better for continuing the dishonest 'debating' that SoLoved left off. Congratulations! I have now finally lost ALL respect for you. Rest assured that were I ever 'on the fence' regarding resuming 'faith' in 'christianity', you and SoLoved have put paid to any chance of that happening. I am NOW firmly convinced that NO GOOD can come from a 'faith' that 'trains' people to LIE and TWIST with such 'gay abandon'. The CS/IDers LIED IN THE FACE OF GOD, THEMSELVES, THEIR FELLOW 'BELIEVERS', THEIR FELLOW HUMANS AND THEIR COURTS by saying that their ID 'manifesto' was NOT their CS 'manifesto' in disguise. Now you and your cohorts have convinced me that your kind of 'faith' is nothing more than self-serving claptrap. Please don't address me again in these forums; as I have from this moment determined that YOU lie and TWIST like the rest of your kind when it suits you. Pathetic. Dishonorable. 'unchristian'. Pah. May your god forgive you. RealityCheck. .
newguy
30th November 2005 - 03:11 PM
QUOTE (Messenger+Nov 30 2005, 09:31 AM) It is God who says 'My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge'
Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
But for starters......I know God exists - because I was transformed by the Holy Spirit. This was a physical experience.
My appearance - when I looked in the mirror - stayed the same. But my entire being suddenly knew that God was real.
This has happened to billions of people over the last 2000 years. There are volumes and volumes of books and testimonies written by people who have been transformed in this fashion.
To say that this is not happening is as ridiculous as saying that the sun doesn't exist.
That's the reason we Christians seem so arrogant. It's because we know. But we are trying so hard to share it with you, and the world. We just haven't got the procedure nailed down yet.
But it is God who calls you - and you must respond. All we can do is plant seeds and try to help.
+Knock Knock.
Who's there?
+This is the Lord
Yeah, right. No really, who's there?
+I AM, the Lord
Whaddya want?
+May I come in?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The rest is up to you.
G'night To all: Apparently there were a few "typos" in "MessengerofSatan's" last post. I've made the necessary adjustments so that you can all better understand what was being said. Here goes: It is God who says "My people are destroyed because they listen to imposters like SoLoved, Messenger and dad1". Hypocrites 3=1: "My people are destroyed because they listen to imposters like SoLoved, Messenger and dad1. If any of you believe them, I will reject you and you will wind up in the very lake of fire that they deny exists."But for starters......I know Satan exists - because I'm possessed by an evil, lying spirit. This was a wonderful experience. My appearance - when I looked in the mirror - stayed the same. But suddenly I knew I was just like SoLoved. This has happened to several people in the Creation/Evolution forum over the last couple of months. There are volumes of idiotic posts written by people who have been transformed in this fashion. To say that this is not happening is as ridiculous as saying that the sun doesn't exist. That's the reason we Hypocrites are so arrogant. It's because we're clueless. But we are trying so hard to share it with you, and the world. We just haven't got the procedure nailed down yet. But it is Satan who calls you - and you must respond. All we can do is tell lies and try to help. +Knock. Knock. Who's there? +This is the Lord. Yeah, right. No really, who's there? +SoLoved. Whaddya want? +May I come in? ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!G'night. Hope that helps clear things up. Carry on.
Kaeroll
30th November 2005 - 04:38 PM
| QUOTE | In this case the original model stands. If Tails represents a fatal mutation, that is the end of the line. A dead organism cannot produce a new generation.
So let me get this straight - if a genetic mutation causes one human to develop, say, cystic fibrosis, and (s)he dies, we as a species cease to be?
If ONE organism has a fatal mutation, IT dies. The rest of the species continues. If ONE organism has a BENEFICIAL mutation, it is more likely to survive and pass the BENEFICIAL mutation to the rest of the species - which, in turn, continue to pass it on.
So what you said is totally correct, apart from the first sentence. It's the end of the line - for THAT organism, not the entire species.
Grumpy
30th November 2005 - 04:44 PM
Kaeroll What he said!!! Grumpy 
Nessus
30th November 2005 - 06:52 PM
| QUOTE | But for starters......I know God exists - because I was transformed by the Holy Spirit. This was a physical experience.
<br>You could also argue that people want to belive so much in something they make themselves belive. The human brain is hardly the pinnical of design, consider all the mental illness for one thing.
But more importantly is that its very possible to convince yourself something happened when it did not, especially things such as "I really wanted to belive in god, then I saw the light, and now im saved! God is with me now, QED, down with science!". These types of arguements have no place here.
gmilam
30th November 2005 - 07:12 PM
QUOTE (Messenger+Nov 30 2005, 03:31 AM) But for starters......I know God exists - because I was transformed by the Holy Spirit. This was a physical experience.
I know people who have claimed to know god after ingesting mind altering substances. This is also a physical experience caused by molecules triggering chemical receptors in their brain. But it was just as real and life altering to them as your experience was to you. I also feel that this is what happens to my sister when she speaks in tongues... overload a few receptors in the brain and voila - incoherent babbling. But it is very real to her... and it leaves her feeling real good.
sinned34
30th November 2005 - 08:19 PM
| QUOTE | My appearance - when I looked in the mirror - stayed the same. But my entire being suddenly knew that God was real.
This has happened to billions of people over the last 2000 years. There are volumes and volumes of books and testimonies written by people who have been transformed in this fashion.
<br>And billions MORE people from other religions (that you call false) make the exact same (or at least similar) claims. So if we're basing it on popularity (which seems to be what you are implying), then statistically Islam wins (mainly by birthrate, but there are many converts to it), and we must believe whatever they say is correct. Personal experience can only take one so far, especially when there are, as you state, billions of contradicting personal evidences.
Messenger, I spent more than 1/4 of my life actively attempting to recreate your experiment, and it failed horribly. I suppose I should attempt to recreate the same experience with every OTHER religion as well, but I don't think I have enough time to do so, and looking at the ridiculous claims made by some spiritualists, I doubt that it requires me trying every possible religion out there to find the right one.
PS: I'm finding that atheism/agnosticism seems to be working quite well at this time. It seems to explain the universe sufficiently thus far, without requiring nonphysical evidence. It also does not require me to empirically dismiss any evidence that might alter my perception of the universe around me.
Newguy:
As a decidedly huge Weird Al fanboy, I love parody, and found your mirrored response to Messenger quite humorous (if perhaps a bit childish - but then, isn't MOST parody a little immature?).
Gmilam:
I've spoken in tongues (oh, it pains me to admit that...) and it certainly didn't make me feel any different than when I wasn't speaking in tongues. I think that since evangelical Christians have speaking in tongues impressed upon them as a "fruit of the Spirit", it makes them thrilled to do it. As Nessus stated, it is supposed to make you feel closer to God, and that is why most Xtians feel good doing it, but it sure didn't do anything for me. In fact, it made me feel silly. Basically, people just kept laying hands on me, praying for me, and I eventually ended up mimicking the examples of tongues around me. It took me a number of prayer "sessions" before I finally began that ridiculous babbling. Plus, even though the "Holy Spirit" should have lifted itself from me in horror many years ago, I can still blather in that "ethereal language" (again, it is embarrassing to say that).
Ugh, I hate bringing up the ridiculous crap that I used to do when I was a fundie. But at least I learned valuable lessons from it. I need a beer...
newguy
30th November 2005 - 08:34 PM
sinned34: Well, this is probably as good a time as any to say this. I have, on more than one occasion, cast out spirits of "false tongues", for lack of a better term. Quite frankly, I had the same "spirit" cast out of me some years ago and my experience in receiving these "tongues"(being prayed for repeatedly, etc.) in many ways "mirrored" yours. This is not to say that I don't believe that there are genuine "tongues". However, with the pitiful condition that most churches(at least the ones I've been to) find themselves in, it's no wonder that their "Holy Spirit"(since you put it in quotes first) isn't the Holy Spirit at all. Glad you liked the parody. Pity it's more than just a parody. It's the truth.
gmilam
30th November 2005 - 08:48 PM
QUOTE (newguy+Nov 30 2005, 02:34 PM) sinned34: Well, this is probably as good a time as any to say this. I have, on more than one occasion, cast out spirits of "false tongues", for lack of a better term. Quite frankly, I had the same "spirit" cast out of me some years ago and my experience in receiving these "tongues"(being prayed for repeatedly, etc.) in many ways "mirrored" yours. This is not to say that I don't believe that there are genuine "tongues". However, with the pitiful condition that most churches(at least the ones I've been to) find themselves in, it's no wonder that their "Holy Spirit"(since you put it in quotes first) isn't the Holy Spirit at all. Glad you liked the parody. Pity it's more than just a parody. It's the truth. If this tongues thing mirrored the book of Acts where everyone understood in their own language, then I would probably consider that as evidence of something deeper going on. But it just sounds like babble to me... not a very useful means of communication or instruction. Then again, since I speak the same language as my sister, I wouldn't notice anything abnormal happening would I?
Your fellow human (yfh)
20th July 2006 - 09:33 PM
I would like to clear something up right now aboud ID.
"God" is not a Jew.
Whatever initiated the universe -- was it "alive"?
Did it initiate other things?
US-theism is too semitic.
I don't believe Jesus was "God's son". I don't believe "God loves us". I don't believe "God will judge the righteous and the unrighteous". I think the authors of the bible were arrogant/possessed/buzzed.
But I do think it's possible that our universe was initiated by something which was "alive".
[Meanwhile, try to avoid Satan and YHWH. They are both extremists!]
PuckSR
20th July 2006 - 11:12 PM
| QUOTE | But I do think it's possible that our universe was initiated by something which was "alive".
<br>Ok...then maybe your a Deist...
Or maybe your a pantheist....
Or maybe your a theist....
It doesnt really matter....
Just suffice it to say your not a creationist...which was my impression of you until I read this.
AlphaNumeric
20th July 2006 - 11:17 PM
QUOTE (Jerry Duke+Nov 30 2005, 09:15 PM) Wow. Just wow. That's so utterly mindwarping flawed it beggers belief that people accept that. Mathematical proof creationism is true? The author just states assumption as fact c+e=1 God created everything, so c=1, therefore e=0. I've proved evolution is wrong!!! No wait, I've just made an assumption to prove my assumption! Rubbish logic for all!
PuckSR
20th July 2006 - 11:19 PM
| QUOTE | The supposed "pressure" imposed by Natural Selection is an illusion, because the process cannot predict or avoid a mutation that will cause death. Death occurs after the fatal mutation. The death of one individual does nothing to prevent a fatal mutation from occuring to another individua
<br>Correct...so therefore several individuals die...
In fact...all individuals die...
All evolution cares about is how long it takes to die...
Two major criteria....did the individual last long enough to have sex?
and did the individual last long enough to help it's offspring survive.
After that lifespan is meaningless to natural selection....
Why do you think humans are one of the few animals that regularly lives to the point of sterility?
Your entire argument is crap, btw. I mean that in the friendliest way possible...but your "explanation" does little to explain why Natural selection provides not statistical advantage. Even to use your "tree" analogy...several branches on a tree regularly die off....and only a select few branches grow large enough to be considered main branches.
Go look at a tree. Small branches grow ever spring...but only a rare few survive. These stronger branches go on to produce more small branches. Those branches that die off do not produce any more branches.
At the same time the large branches supporting new smaller branches have several of their small branches die off as well.
Your ignoring the fact that lots of branches die before they get the chance to create sub-branches.
jduke
28th August 2006 - 07:28 PM
QUOTE (AlphaNumeric+Jul 20 2006, 11:17 PM) ...The author just states assumption as fact
c+e=1
God created everything, so c=1, therefore e=0. ... You misstate the facts. The values of "c" and "e" were calculated independently. Neither of them was assumed. The value of "c" was calculated by two college professors using the probability estimates of natural occurances given to them by 600 of their students. The calculation established the veracity of the prophecies of the Holy Bible to be 100%. This is a minimum estimate of the value of "c". The only way to diminish this estimate is to prove false statements in the Holy Bible. Failing this the statements of the Holy Bible have at least the weight of established scientific law. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1) Genesis Chapter 1, verse 1 stands as scientifically verified truth. The only way to scientifically dismiss this statement is to scientifically prove that it is false. I know of no such proof. I calculated the value of "e" based on the proof of Evolution given to me by one of my college professors, without reference to God whatsoever. The calculations required by the professor's proof establish the value of "e" to be zero to an accuracy of more than 12,000,000 decimal places.
Steveo
28th August 2006 - 09:15 PM
| QUOTE | You misstate the facts. The values of "c" and "e" were calculated independently. Neither of them was assumed.
The value of "c" was calculated by two college professors using the probability estimates of natural occurances given to them by 600 of their students. The calculation established the veracity of the prophecies of the Holy Bible to be 100%. This is a minimum estimate of the value of "c". The only way to diminish this estimate is to prove false statements in the Holy Bible. Failing this the statements of the Holy Bible have at least the weight of established scientific law.
<br>You are so full of crap! By having other prophecies that are 'true' from the bible says absolutely nothing about the truth of Genisis. You can infer the truth of Genisis IF everything else is true, however that does NOT constitute as verified proof. Proof requires an analysis of the particular problem, not the correctness of unrelated statements from the same book. For example, I could write a math textbook, with 100's of correct theorems all true, with complete proofs. Then put a wild conjecture at the end, and by your logic I could infer it is true because the rest is true, and hten claim it was proven to be truth! That is complete and utter BULLSH!T jduke, and you know it! Or if not your college professors taught you nothing!
QUOTE (-> | QUOTE | You misstate the facts. The values of "c" and "e" were calculated independently. Neither of them was assumed.
The value of "c" was calculated by two college professors using the probability estimates of natural occurances given to them by 600 of their students. The calculation established the veracity of the prophecies of the Holy Bible to be 100%. This is a minimum estimate of the value of "c". The only way to diminish this estimate is to prove false statements in the Holy Bible. Failing this the statements of the Holy Bible have at least the weight of established scientific law.
<br>You are so full of crap! By having other prophecies that are 'true' from the bible says absolutely nothing about the truth of Genisis. You can infer the truth of Genisis IF everything else is true, however that does NOT constitute as verified proof. Proof requires an analysis of the particular problem, not the correctness of unrelated statements from the same book. For example, I could write a math textbook, with 100's of correct theorems all true, with complete proofs. Then put a wild conjecture at the end, and by your logic I could infer it is true because the rest is true, and hten claim it was proven to be truth! That is complete and utter BULLSH!T jduke, and you know it! Or if not your college professors taught you nothing!
Genesis Chapter 1, verse 1 stands as scientifically verified truth. The only way to scientifically dismiss this statement is to scientifically prove that it is false. I know of no such proof.
<br>Its a statement that can not be proven true or false, based only on that statement. However, if you look at how Genisis predicts the universe to have been created, and compare that with observation you see Genisis is most likely wrong. And because of the incorrectness of the rest of Genisis you can INFER that Genisis Chapter 1 verse 1 is also false. And according to your logic from earlier, this PROVES it is wrong. However, since I don't use your logic I won't make that claim, just that IF god created the heavens and he earth he did NOT create it through the method outlined in Genisis.
| QUOTE | I calculated the value of "e" based on the proof of Evolution given to me by one of my college professors, without reference to God whatsoever. The calculations required by the professor's proof establish the value of "e" to be zero to an accuracy of more than 12,000,000 decimal places.
<br>Your arguement is flawed because there is no proof of evolution. Especially not a mathematical one. The evidence for evolution is all around us. But it is evidence, and not proof. So your 'e=0' is flawed from the start, as no evolution proof exists. Your using something not real to try and prove a point. Very weak jduke, very weak!
J. Wensveen
14th September 2006 - 12:50 PM
Well, to verify the truth of Genesis 1:1, first find the original in the old sURmarian script, then translate it from there. This to get the correct source information.
The Bible, in any modern language, has no scientific value that can be based on the intrepetation of its scripting. Its only value is as a nice story book with a global message. In the current modern languages, any claim based on literal intrepetation of lines of text is in concept false.
ragnarpendon
15th September 2006 - 09:55 AM
QUOTE (J. Wensveen+Sep 14 2006, 12:50 PM) Well, to verify the truth of Genesis 1:1, first find the original in the old sURmarian script, then translate it from there. This to get the correct source information.
The Bible, in any modern language, has no scientific value that can be based on the intrepetation of its scripting. Its only value is as a nice story book with a global message. In the current modern languages, any claim based on literal intrepetation of lines of text is in concept false. ummmm.... what do you meant by "concept false"?  just asking for the sake of understanding
ragnarpendon
15th September 2006 - 10:03 AM
QUOTE (Steveo+Aug 28 2006, 09:15 PM)
You are so full of crap! By having other prophecies that are 'true' from the bible says absolutely nothing about the truth of Genisis. You can infer the truth of Genisis IF everything else is true, however that does NOT constitute as verified proof. Proof requires an analysis of the particular problem, not the correctness of unrelated statements from the same book. For example, I could write a math textbook, with 100's of correct theorems all true, with complete proofs. Then put a wild conjecture at the end, and by your logic I could infer it is true because the rest is true, and hten claim it was proven to be truth! That is complete and utter BULLSH!T jduke, and you know it! Or if not your college professors taught you nothing!
Its a statement that can not be proven true or false, based only on that statement. However, if you look at how Genisis predicts the universe to have been created, and compare that with observation you see Genisis is most likely wrong. And because of the incorrectness of the rest of Genisis you can INFER that Genisis Chapter 1 verse 1 is also false. And according to your logic from earlier, this PROVES it is wrong. However, since I don't use your logic I won't make that claim, just that IF god created the heavens and he earth he did NOT create it through the method outlined in Genisis.
Your arguement is flawed because there is no proof of evolution. Especially not a mathematical one. The evidence for evolution is all around us. But it is evidence, and not proof. So your 'e=0' is flawed from the start, as no evolution proof exists. Your using something not real to try and prove a point. Very weak jduke, very weak! as much as i definitely hate to admit it, my fellow Creationist, steveo's right, your argument is weak.... i'm talking from a debating POV, so please, no hard feelings. although, it's quite comforting to know that there's still someone out there who's standing up for ID, though. for a moment there, i felt like the prophet Elijah. anyway, God Bless you man, hope you can give even better arguments next post, (heh, mine are even worse than yours and get creamed as fast as ten minutes later so don't feel so bad there) -skinny
J. Wensveen
15th September 2006 - 12:31 PM
QUOTE (ragnarpendon+Sep 15 2006, 09:55 AM) ummmm.... what do you meant by "concept false"? just asking for the sake of understanding In concept means that for determining true or false of such a claim, False must be the startingpoint at determination, and as long as no other supporting evidence is found that can prove otherwise on its own merit, the claim remains false. So basically put, any claim based on literal intrepetation of lines of text in a translated version of the bible is False unless you have the original language part of the text that can support the translation without reasonable doubt.
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