One more for good measure!

I'm looking forward to hearing the rationalisation for this evidence.

RC ... c'mon I'm ready to take notes!

Two external walls still standing yet nothing in the middle!!!!

Howcome this building didn't fall down? After all, it was hit with debris just like Building 7.

Each tower had about 1 trillion Joules of gravitational energy in it. One the a-bombs dropped on Japan had about 63 trillion Joules. That gravitational energy is about 1 to 2 percent of an a-bomb and dwarfs any energy of conventional explosives that could have been in a building.

There are a few who will try to argue that 1 or 2 % of an a-bomb isn't all that much, but all of that energy was stored in the building itself, as opposed to a bomb whose energy doesn't get transferred nearly as easily to structures such as a building. Think of taking 1 or 2 percent of the energy of the a-bomb dropped on japan and concentrating it solely on one trade tower.

The energy of gravity is a deceptive thing to some because you can't see it stored in the building before the collapse, as opposed to a bomb blast which is very visual. By not appreciating the energy of gravity, the general public is forced to think in terms of energy of bombs separate from the building itself, and that tends to make people think that somehow a large amount of explosive had to have been stored within the building.

Can anyone identify this object ? Looks pretty heavy, whatever it is. How did it end up in its current position?

It looks like a cord is wrapped around the drum, as if it was a winch. Maybe part of the elevator system or some other system that pulled up payloads. The base is hollow too, apparently to let the cord come through.

The implication of what you are saying is that, by careful placement of explosives, the demoition team was able to exploit this gravitational potential energy. This would be achieved by weakening the core structure near the foundations of the building which carried most of the gravity load.

So, they set charges down in the basement and timed these to detonate at the exact moment the planes hit. It all went extremely well, but for an annoying Latino janitor who insists on telling everyone about two explosions.

Having severely weakened the structure with the first blast, the next challenge was to make the collapse appear to begin at the the impact sites. This required the top 40-50 floors to be rigged with charges which could blow out the perimeter columns for theatrical effect. The demolition team (housed on level 23 of WTC 7 behind armoured glass) had a perfect vantage point from which to make the subjective decision of which floors to "pull" first. This view would have been enhanced with live helicopter footage. So it was really a no-brainer.

Once the bogus "theatrical" part of the collapse was begun, the rest of the core column charges were triggered, and the perimeter charges on lower floors were automatically set off by the compression wave.

Gravity did most of the work from then on.

Where the core daddy?

Daddy, I learned at school that black smoke indicates a fire is oxygen starved...

Yes, but all of that was just theatrics to cover up the UFO piloted by Elvis that destroyed the towers with an invisible ray gun.

MISSING:
1. 47 Column steel core (including elevator shafts). If you have seen this core please notify the Port Authority of New York.

Maybe the aliens stole it?

Are they climbing over reinforced concrete?

Here's some box columns with 4 bolt holes. Others had six. There's an opening in the side near the top to access the bolts.

Earlier Images taken from here:

http://www.toad.com/fucknyccensors/wtc100301/wtc-photos.htm

More info:

World Trade Center Photographs
By AP

These 72 photographs of the World Trade Center disaster site in New York City were taken by AP on 3 October 2001, about noon. The first few, 001-004, were taken from Broadway, walking south, several blocks east of the WTC site from street corners where a part of the site can be seen. These locations are where the public is blocked by barricades and guards.

Then a few photos, 005-012, were taken during a walk along a street off Broadway going west, a couple of blocks south of the site. Every cross street was barricaded and guarded.

This street intersected the West Side Highway, a wide boulevard which passes by the WTC site. A series of photos, 013-018 were taken walking north toward the site. There were no barricades or guards along this path, which was surprising for the site is carefully guarded at most of its perimeter by police and the military and the public is kept at least two blocks distant and usually much farther away.

The next photos, 019-051, are close-ups of the site looking east and west from the West Side Highway, east to the location of the collapsed World Trade Center and west toward the heavily damaged World Financial Center (WFC) located across the West Side Highway from WTC.

Photos were taken from several angles during a walk north past the sites, and then more, 052-073, taken retracing that path walking south.

At the end of this return walk a NYC police officer asked to be shown authorization for taking photographs. AP said there was none. The officer asked how access to the site was gained. AP said I just walked in. Other police officers were consulted, several said this is a crime scene, no photographs allowed.

A NYC police captain was consulted who directed that AP be escorted from the site but that the digital photos need not be confiscated. The captain advised AP to apply for an official permit to photograph the site.

A NYC police officer took AP to New York State police officers nearby who asked to examine the digital camera and view the photographs. Without telling AP, who was being questioned by a State police officer, the photographs were deleted from the camera's compact flash memory chip by another State police officer.

AP was then escorted to the perimeter of the site by yet another NYC police officer who recorded AP's name, and who issued a warning to stay away from the site or face arrest.

______________________

While waiting to leave the site, a group of victim families were escorted toward the ruins. Many carrying flowers, crying, holding hands, stumbling, dreading their walk into hell -- which the site truely is. A terrible scene of heartbreak far worse than photographs can ever show.

______________________

Later, AP, after discovering the photographs had been deleted, restored them with a program called Photorescue sold by DataRescue, a Belgian company which offers the $20 program online.

The camera used was a Nikon CoolPix 880, with a 192MB Compact Flash memory chip.

For public education. No restrictions on non-commercial reproduction. Credit Cryptome.

THOUGHT EXPERIMENT

Imagine a solid block of granite as tall as the World Trade Center.

Now cut off the top 1/3 of that granite block, and embed enough steel columns into the underside of the block to redundantly support the weight of this block.

Gently put the block back on top of the stump, making sure to embed the columns into deep cavities which have been conveniently cut into the stump. Set with concrete.

In terms of our experiment, imagine that a 1 story height of steel columns remains exposed between stump and top block.

Now, heat up a few columns on one side of the composite block. Keep applying heat until you see downward movement in the top block.

Now stand back.

What happens next?

There were steel beams that were observed to have undergone sulphidation and oxidation corrosion. The pic below was a beam apparently pulled from WTC7.

It's not surprising sulphidation occurred in some of the beams. There were high temperatures in the pit and tons of gypsum powder which is calcium sulphate and decomposes at 700C and higher forming calcium oxide and SO3. The water being sprayed on the pit could have formed a sulfuric acid solution and vapors. Calcium sulphate itself is a salt of calcium and sulfuric acid.

Gypsum powder is also decomposed by microbes in moist soil and releases hydrogen sulphide gas. Hot metal in that type of atmosphere will likely undergo sulphidation corrosion.

Sulfidation can occur at a rate much faster than oxidation for a given temperature. Sulfur can work its way into grain boundaries and form a eutectic with a melting point below 1000C, much lower than the melting point of steel. Grains of metal can dislodge from the surface of the metal due to this low melting point eutectic.

There were probably other sulfur bearing materials in the building that could have played a role, considering all of the polymers and materials in the buildings. Sulfur is also a common impurity found in diesel fuel. Diesel fuel was believed to be burning in WTC7.

Jones claims the sulfur came from intentionally placed thermite.

IPRC


The Independent Peer Review Committee is a growing collective of professionals and academics who are evaluating the procedures and conclusions of the National Institute of Standards and Technology World Trade Center investigation.

As members of the building and research communities, we realize the importance of learning from the massive destruction of the WTC complex and applying relevant lessons in practice.

Since the NIST's findings, much like those of the 9/11 Commission, will be the documents to which future generations look to understand the events of 9/11/01, we believe those findings should be as well reviewed as possible.

We urge all qualified persons to join this forum and add their expertise to this important discussion.


http://nistreview.org/

Here's a giant box column. Note the people in the yellow bucket.

Shagster:

I think it's about time you gave credit to your source on sulfur at the WTC

http://www.911myths.com/Sulfur.pdf

Dr. NO

Part of the core.

Hay, this ones good. Thanks! It clearly shows white smoke and flames shooting out windows so far you can see them from this side view!

To be honest, I've never seen that report you posted. Thanks for posting it though.

I do have a degree in materials science and have studied corrosion of metals. I'm not an expert in corrosion but have a background in it.

One of the NIST reports had the photo of that corroded beam I showed. Offhand I don't remember which report.

I guess your hand waving covered this from your eyes...



http://www.geocities.com/debunking911//computermodel.jpg







Silverstein's insurers claim the collapse of the south tower, Two WTC, rendered the north tower, One WTC, unsalvageable even before it collapsed. If they prevail, Silverstein would receive only $3.5 billion (ENR 10/7 p. 11). Click here to view one WTC collapse sequence (SECOND DOWN North tower lasted longer due to impact site. (Graphics courtesy of Weidlinger Associates Inc.))

The insurers commissioned their own engineering study, written by Exponent Failure Analysis Associates Inc., Los Angeles. Also released, the report disagrees with the Weidlinger findings, but mostly on points relating to the insurance battle. Engineers from Wiss, Janney, Elstner and Associates Inc., Northbrook, Ill., also working for the insurers, would not comment on their work.

In the Silverstein study, engineers put forth similar but not exact failure scenarios for both towers: The planes and flying debris hobbled the buildings at the zones of impact. Intact columns, their fireproofing knocked off by flying debris, ultimately lost strength and failed in the fuel-triggered fire.

Though hit by the second plane later than One WTC, Two WTC fell first, "primarily" because the plane struck it off-center and at an angle and caused damage that compromised the southeast corner of the core. "This confirms an earlier theory," says Levy. Click here to view two WTC collapse sequence (FIRST DOWN Plane took out corner of core, which hastened collapse. (Graphics courtesy of Weidlinger Associates Inc.)).


At each tower, exterior wall and core columns, connected by a steel "hat truss" at the building's top, initially redistributed loads away from the damaged areas to remaining columns. In Two WTC, the hat truss eventually could not deal with the situation of the corner columns gone, says Levy.

The team determined that the initial hits destroyed 33 of 59 perimeter columns in the north face of One WTC and 29 of 59 perimeter columns in the south face of Two WTC. Computer analysis showed that the impact of the planes also destroyed or disabled some 20 of 47 columns in the center of the core of One WTC and some five of 47 columns in the southeast corner of the core of Two WTC.

The Silverstein findings are based on analysis of original structural drawings, thousands of photos and dozens of videos. The team used computer modeling, including a program called FLEX developed by Weidlinger for the Dept. of Defense, and fire evaluation techniques to simulate the condition of each tower at critical times, creating impact and collapse sequences.

http://construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlin...R/20021104d.asp



Abstract: Mechanical simulation and parameter discussion for the collapse of WTC (World Trade Center) after aeroplane impact are presented in this paper with the dynamic FEA software of LS-DYNA. The simulation results are very close to the real situation, which means that such type of special damage process can be recurred on the computer with proper parameter and numerical model. The results show that the direct reason for the collapse is the softening of steel under fire and the chain reaction damage of floors under the impact load of upper floors. If improve the fire resistance and the ductility of the structure, the collapse may can be avoided.

1. Introduction

The two towers of world trade center in New York were impact by two aeroplanes on Sep. 11 of 2001. The two towers were collapsed completely and more than 3 thousand people died in this affair. This affair obtained everyone¡¯s focus and many explanations are put forward for the reason of this collapse, including fire damage, heaped load, second-damage and so on. Because the collapse of the towers is very complex and it is difficult to recur by test, most explanations are based on qualitative analysis. However, the computer technology applied us a chance to simulate the collapse in the computer, so that the reason for the collapse can be discussed, as well as the methods can be raised to avoid this disaster.

2. Numerical model

This simulation is based on the dynamic FEA software of LS-DYNA, which is developed by the Software Company of Livemore.

The WTC is topical tube-in-tube structure system, whose outer tube is dense-columns-deep-beams system. The width of the column is 476.25mm while the space between columns is just 558.8mm. The thickness of beams is 1219.2mm. In order to simplify the numerical model and decrease the degree of freedom, the outer dense-columns-deep-beams tube system and inner steel truss tube system are approached with shell elements. The thickness of shell elements is established with equivalent section method. Such approximate tube has the same stiffness of global bending and axial deformation as the real structure, while the local bending stiffness of structure elements is not consisted with the real condition. Since the primary deformation of tube-in-tube structure system is global bending and axial compression deformation, this approximate method should be feasible.

The material of inner and outer tube is set to be steel in the numerical model, with the constitutive relationship of Material 3, Plastic Kinematic model in LS-DYNA. The density of steel is 7800Kg/m3. The Yang¡¯s modulus is 200GPa. The Poisson ratio is 0.27. The yield strength is set to be 310MPa, according to Steel A440 in U.S. The hardening modulus is set to be 2GPa, 1% of initial modulus. As the fracture of steel is considered in this analysis, the failure plastic deformation is discussed as parameters, whose value is set as 0.5%, 1% and 5% respectively

The material of floor is set to be RC material, with the constitutive relationship of Material 3, Plastic Kinematic model, too. The density is 2500Kg/m3. The Yang¡¯s modulus is 30GPa. The Poisson ration is 0.2. The yield strength is 30MPa. The hardening modulus is 0. All the fracture plastic deformation is set to be the maximum compression strain of concrete, whose value is 0.38%.

Because of the weak fire resistance capacity of steel, the high temperature caused by the burning of aeroplane oil will soften the steel. So the material of steel under fire is needed to be setup, whose other parameter is the same to normal steel except that the Yang¡¯s modulus and strength is set as 1/20 of normal ones, to approach the performance of steel at 700¡æ.

As the collapse analysis is very complex, the Single Face Erosion contact module of LS-DYNA is used in this case. This contact model can search the contact face automatically to establish the contact relationship, and those complex border conditions such as penetration, erosion can be considered, too. The friction factor of material is set to be 0.25.

Since the LS-DYNA is explicit dynamic software, when applying the gravity load, the structure will vibrate for a short time. It is not consisted with the real conditions. So the whole computation should be divided into two stages. In the first stage, the towers have not been impacted. The gravity load is applied to the model and relatively large damp ratio is applied to the towers, whose value is 10%. Computing the model until the vertical vibration disappeared. Then, the second computation stage starts. In the second stage, some elements in the tower are ¡°killed¡± to approach the hole of airplane impact, and the material property of some survival elements is modified to simulate the fire influence, too.

4 Conclusions

The following conclusions are obtained from the simulation.

1) The reasons for the entire collapse of the towers are the structure elements¡¯ soften of fire and impact of the upper layers¡¯ collapse. From the numerical results, the towers does not collapse immediately after the impact. The north tower can go on standing. Likely, the south one dose not collapse, too, though there are some large deformations in it, which are caused by the asymmetric damage. This is consisted with the real situations.

2) Improving the structure fire resistance ability or control the fire influence area will avoid or delay the structure collapse, efficiently. We simulate the fire influence by adjusting the material property of elements. From the numerical results, even though the structure has been damaged seriously by the impact, if the influence area is smaller than 20%~25% of the survival section in the tower, the collapse still can be avoided. When more than 30~50% of the survival section near the impact zone fails, the collapse will start.

3) When the towers go into the collapse stage, the reason for the chain failure of un-impact layers is the impulse of upper collapsing floors. The impact force of upper floors is much larger than the heap load. And because there are a lot of bump and eject on the contact surface of collapsing floors and lower floors, the fragment of structure falls consecutively so that there is no chance to form a lot of heap load. So the heap load is not the critical reason for the collapse.

4) Improving the ductility of structure elements is an efficient way to avoid the chain collapse happens. In the simulation above, if the fracture plastic strain of steel structure is 0.5%, the chain collapse will take place entirely. However, if the fracture strain is improved to 1%, the impact energy of upper floors will be absorbed by the lower structures and the chain collapse will be stopped at about 100m under the airplane impact zone. When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place. Hence, if the structure has enough ductility to absorb the energy of upper floors¡¯ collapse, the chain damage will be controlled. Even though consider the influence of heap load, the towers still have much larger chance to escape from the entire collapse.

http://www.luxinzheng.net/publications/english_WTC.htm

That's TWO computer models done outside NIST (Plus the NIST final report which says there was one done by NIST [first image above]) which say it CAN happen. Wheres yours saying it can't?

Large font for the hand waving impaired.

Another good picture for my site! Thanks jamisito! It clearly shows PAPER flying around in what Jones says should be a Pyroclastic flow of 1000 degrees! Heh! I guess this proves hes as smart as you.

The sulfur paper posted was by Greening and dated Feb 26, 2006, very recent.

I thought the passage below was interesting. It's along the same lines as possible chemical reactions that may have occurred with aluminum creating exothermic reactions that could have kept aluminum molten.

"We therefore suggest that some areas of the WTC rubble pile were exposed to conditions comparable to those in a furnace chimney where hot combustion gases rich in CO, carrying particles of alkali sulfates, impinged on steel surfaces. This led to the formation of hot (up to 800C) corrosive slags that initiated exothermic reactions with steel and other surfaces, thereby sustaining the slag’s molten state. These slags could subsequently flow like volcanic lava in the debris pile and collect in pools. Such pools could easily be mistaken for molten metal."

What you're most likely looking at is building 3



What's left of the Core would be behind that.

That's an elevator motor and NO ONE can say how it got there because the photo is from oct 3rd and it could have been dragged out of the debris and put there for all we know.

Did it catch fire like building 7? NO

The box column on the left seems to have a cement like coating on it in some places.

Very observant.

But there are some who know this yet abuse the general public ignorance on the subject. The general public wasn't the one creating papers, It was a couple of professors.

Paid for by parties that stand to gain or loose an additional $3.5 Billion...

I don't see a "Cement" coating. I see something but it's hard to say what it is. It could be cement, it could be a landing connection with what's left of drywall, it could be debris which collected between the column and the drywall... There are to many possibilities to conclude anything don't you think?

But cement is one of the possibilities, for sure.

And the party which stood to lose 3.5 billion couldn't create a computer model proving otherwise...

http://archrecord.construction.com/news/wt...s/041208wtc.asp

Which Couldn't (and Wouldn't) be cut that way by the shown shaped charge.

If you took 2 seconds to compare the geometry you will notice that
A ) there is NO reason to cut it like that and
B ) the explosive piece shown wouldn't do it anyway.
C ) Its NOT from the WTC towers or WTC 7



Arthur

I visit regularly but dont always post.

adouchebags constant "playing the man not the ball" is becoming tiresome. The only responses he now seems capable of are name calling.

He also seems to think that subscribing to the Osama and his 19 Suicidal Elves theory - is NOT a Conspiracy Theory. This is a nonsense, considering that there is NO evidence that OBL or any Ayrabs had anything to do with 911.

I also believe this thread is being deliberatley filled with nonsense by multiple personality persons.

Maybe if IP's were posted alongside names.

The title above the picture states (Great detective work, Arty) :
. US Customs & Border Protection : Department of Homeland Security : WTC 5


Extremely high Resolution Version (really big):
http://206.241.31.129/ImageCache/cgov/cont...v1/wtc_5f10.jpg

OK demolition expert, How did they cut it?
Don’t tell me with a torch, they would cut it in pieces and let it fall to the ground first.
If they used explosives on WTC 5 it only is not important to a disinformation person. The type of person that would say the CIA is only engaged in spying.

I don’t agree with MMC analysis of the type of cutting charge however the piece looks like it was cut with something.

Another interesting point is look at the column in the center incased in concrete. When the concrete is removed the steel shows know sign of having been incased.

"adouchebags" Yeah, this is the reason people name call. Because a$$holes like you jamieY-M-C-A are bent on starting it.

Try a different style before you post your puppet whining.

Sonny,
You need to not think about everything as being so black and white.

Complex events tend to be MULTI-DIMENSIONAL.

So sonny, while the presence of Black smoke is indicative of incomplete combustion, that does not mean all the fires in the towers were oxygen starved.

See those BIG holes in the side, well obviously MASSIVE amounts of air were available, so obviously a lot of the fires burning had all the air they could use. You can see evidence of that by the massive roiling plumes of heated air that are escaping from the towers. Keep in mind that inside the towers a tremendous amount of the heat is also being absorbed by the structure.

But even with all that air, there was STILL more fuel than air, so at some point inside the towers the fires went from complete to incomplete combustion, thus generating black smoke.

So, sonny, don't be fooled by people who point to the black smoke and say it was just smoldering, they are idiots.





Arthur

So ReasonWhy, are you NOW saying that WTC 5 was ALSO a CD????

Arthur

He say a few arabs couldn't have carried out the 9/11 attacks. Never mind how raciest it is to suggest 20 or so Arabs aren't smart enough to fly planes and keep a secret... The fact is the leader of this plot is the perfect one to carry it out. America thought him smart enough to hold back Russia. But what makes him especially perfect for the attacks is his education and family back ground. His father was the biggest Saudi Arabian construction contractor and Osama himself earned a degree in civil engineering from King Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah in 1979. Why wouldn't he be the perfect person to pull this off...

He freaken confessed!

And as I looked at those demolished towers in Lebanon, it entered my mind that we should punish the oppressor in kind and that we should destroy towers in America in order that they taste some of what we tasted and so that they be deterred from killing our women and children.

So with these images and their like as their background, the events of September 11th came as a reply to those great wrongs, should a man be blamed for defending his sanctuary?

This is the message which I sought to communicate to you in word and deed, repeatedly, for years before September 11th.

As for its results, they have been, by the grace of Allah, positive and enormous, and have, by all standards, exceeded all expectations. This is due to many factors, chief amongst them, that we have found it difficult to deal with the Bush administration in light of the resemblance it bears to the regimes in our countries, half of which are ruled by the military and the other half which are ruled by the sons of kings and presidents.

All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two Mujahideen to the furthest point East to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies.

This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the Mujahideen, bled Russia for ten years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.

All Praise is due to Allah.

So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy.

[B]al-Qaida spent $500,000 on the event, while America, in the incident and its aftermath, lost - according to the lowest estimate - more than 500 billion dollars.

But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations—all praise is due to Allah.[/B]

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Text_of_2004...Laden_videotape

I dismiss any post made by Temp after this MORONIC post.

A real tin-foil hat loony toon.

Arthur

One more important lesson for your child.

The reason the collapse accured is the cooling of the trusses which pulled in the columns.

1) Fire expands trusses

2) Trusses sag as they push against the perimeter wall.

3) Fires die down a bit lowering temperatures

4) trusses which are now sagged contract pulling in the perimeter columns.

So the black smoke only confirms the NIST report.

"•Floors 95 to 99 weakened with increasing temperatures over time on the long-span floors and sagged. The floors sagged first and then contracted due to cooling on the North side; fires reached the South side later, the floors sagged, and the seat connections weakened.

•Floor sagging induced inward pull forces on the South wall columns.

•About 20 percent of the connections to the South perimeter wall on floors 97 and 98 failed due to thermal weakening of the vertical supports."

Because of the weak fire resistance capacity of steel, the high temperature caused by the burning of aeroplane oil will soften the steel. So the material of steel under fire is needed to be setup, whose other parameter is the same to normal steel except that the Yang¡¯s modulus and strength is set as 1/20 of normal ones, to approach the performance of steel at 700¡æ.
............................
Improving the ductility of structure elements is an efficient way to avoid the chain collapse happens. In the simulation above, if the fracture plastic strain of steel structure is 0.5%, the chain collapse will take place entirely. However, if the fracture strain is improved to 1%, the impact energy of upper floors will be absorbed by the lower structures and the chain collapse will be stopped at about 100m under the airplane impact zone. When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place. Hence, if the structure has enough ductility to absorb the energy of upper floors¡¯ collapse, the chain damage will be controlled. Even though consider the influence of heap load, the towers still have much larger chance to escape from the entire collapse



The compilers of this paper have used an overestimation of the steel temperatures.
They show that continuation of collapse is dependent on a fracture deformation of less than 1%, at that temperature and with a reduced Youngs modulus.
Bazant Zhou show that buckling does not occur until a 3% vertical deformation. This report, when corrected to show the accepted reality of the temperature ranges and Youngs modulus, supports the postulation that additional energies, other than those from aircraft impact and fire, were necessary to cause a total collapse.

When the fracture strain is improved to 5%, only part of the structure near the airplane impacting zone will be damaged, and no chain collapse will take place.

How does this square with the belief that collapse initiation will inevitably lead to a total collapse?
Gordon.