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adoucette
QUOTE (brian+Jan 5 2006, 02:54 PM)

As for another Arthurian legend - the fuel for this red hot fire. Is it not the case that particle analysis showed that the contents of the towers had been pulverised along with the structure?

What was present was heat, if its source was a convential fire raging hot enough to heat steel to such temperatures it would have been obvious and reported upon. This was not the case so some other explanation is required, it is as simple as that.
No, there is no "particle analysis" that shows the contents of the towers were pulverized.

There WERE studies of the size and composition of particles AWAY from Ground Zero, to see the impact on air quality/health, and of course, as you move away from ground zero the particles get smaller and smaller.

Some people have used this info in a BOGUS manner to conclude that all WTC material was this size.

Pictures from ground zero show this was not the case.


They DID report on the smoking rubble pile.

They DID pour water on it.

Still it burned.

Rubble piles will do that.

The bottom levels of the rubble pile was the parking garage. Cars and tires are particularly hard to put out. Of course they all had gas tanks and plenty of hydraulic fluid, engine oil, transmission fluid etc and none of that had time to burn before being smothered by the falling towers.

Now as you start to lift this mess, you CREATE conditions for fires to go from smoldering to flaming.

As described before, its a chaotic and random mix of materials yielding totally unpredictable results.

Arthur

brian
Induced Sputum Assessment in New York City Firefighters Exposed to World Trade Center Dust

--"Environmental site studies after the collapse reported concentrations of airborne and respirable particulates ranging up to 100 mg/m3 and 1 mg/m3, respectively (CDC 2002a). Analysis of settled WTC dust samples collected 5 and 6 days postcollapse from areas east of the WTC revealed a complex mixture of particulate matter and combustion/pyrolysis products, composed mostly of building debris fibers (e.g., mineral wool, fiberglass, asbestos, wood, paper, cotton) contaminated with polycyclic hydrocarbons (Landrigan et al. 2004; Lioy et al. 2002). More than 90% of the particles in these bulk samples were > 10 µm in diameter and many were fibers with widths < 5 µm and lengths > 10 µm. Further, many were caustic cement particles with a pH of 9-11 (Landrigan et al. 2004; Lioy et al. 2002)." -

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/494684
brian
CHEMICAL ANALYSIS OF A DISASTER

-"The dust "was unlike any dust and smoke mixture I had ever seen before," Lioy said. The fluffy, pink and gray powder "was basically a complex mixture of everything that makes up our workplaces and lives." Six million sq ft of masonry, 5 million sq ft of painted surfaces, 7 million sq ft of flooring, 600,000 sq ft of window glass, 200 elevators, and everything inside came down as dust, said Greg Meeker of USGS. The only thing that didn't get pulverized was the WTC towers' 200,000 tons of structural steel. That was just bent, Meeker said." -

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/NCW/8142aerosols.html
Common Sense
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 5 2006, 05:31 AM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Jan 5 2006, 03:22 AM)
"a hydrogen bomb explosion, the bomb having been placed in the cellar and directed to the core, has reached the roof of the tower and the upper parts of the outer walls. On its way up the waves of fire pressure partially penetrated about 100 floors of concrete and steel. Over ten million degrees of heat caused by a hydrogen bomb sublimised all water within the concrete in a moment. Water exploded extremely quickly into 24-fold volume and totally pulverized the concrete. Even people and computers that were in the buildings disappeared turning into heat and light. That is why almost nothing of them was found in the ruins.

Burning radiation is absorbed in steel so quickly that steel heats up immediately over its melting point 1585 °C (approx. 2890 °F) and above its boiling point around 3000 C (approx. 5430 °F). In the pictures down below, super hot groups of steel pillars and columns, torn from wall by pressure wave, are sublimized. They immediately turn into a vaporized form, binding heat as quickly as possible. Bursts upwards, even visible in the picture below, are not possible for a gravitational collapse or for cutting charges which are used horizontally. "

http://members.surfeu.fi/11syyskuu/soldier5.htm

user posted image


A nuke directed to the core which leaves the core standing longer than the building. The dust was even clearing at this point and it's still up. After a he says it reached 3000 degress, Well above the melting point of steel...

This is clear as mud. Can you do any better?

<br>I agree, his site IS as clear as Mud. You can't see through it and you only need to see the surface to know not to drink it.

Schneibster already did better...

___________________

I figured out I misplaced a zero, but the sum of the kinetic energy is still pretty impressive. The energy dissipated during the fall is about 250 or 300 GJ, and the leftover energy at impact is about 600 GJ, not 6 TJ. So it’s about a quarter kiloton of TNT for the North tower and about a fifth of a kiloton for the South tower; that’s still a hell of a lot of energy, more than sufficient to liquify a pretty healthy chunk of steel, and it doesn’t change the fact that there’s a lot more energy in the office contents; having screwed up once, I ain’t gonna flap my pie hole and give numbers until I’m done calculatin that, tho.
Bingo, you should be aware that anytime you do mechanical work, the energy you do it with doesn’t just “go away” or “get used up.” Energy that does work gets dissipated, and when that happens, it turns to heat. This is a well known fact of physics, specifically thermodynamics, that was proven early (or maybe it was late? no, I’m pretty sure it was EARLY) in the nineteenth century by the gentleman for whom the SI unit of energy is named, James Prescott Joule. Go look him up on Wikipedia, or elsewhere if you’re a newb and believe what you read in the newspapers about Wikipedia. He did this experiment where he stirred water in buckets and showed it got hotter.
This, by the way, is a place where Jim Hoffman makes a serious mistake; in his paper on the dust cloud, he fails to note that he has to ADD THE HEAT BACK IN when he’s totalling things up at the end. This is a violation of conservation of energy, the First Law of Thermodynamics (and a foundational law of physics).
Truth,
What distance do you drop the load from? The floor of initial collapse: 79 for the South tower, 97 for the North. It’s a variable in the program, you can change it for yourself and run it yourself, it’s a perl. I should prolly have published it here long before now; this site deserves a lot more of me than physorg does, for sure. Interestingly, going from a 39-story to a 13-story falling section doesn’t make a great deal of difference in the energy, and makes even less difference in the energy that’s left over when the building hits the ground.
A falling building is not like a bomb or a laser beam. You’re right, but it makes heat all the same- just like all work makes heat. Feel the bottom of the bicycle pump after you’ve pumped the tire up. Where does that heat come from? Same place as this does.
_While it’s true that a 6.2 TJ bomb would have blown the *** out of several blocks, _ My bad, should be a 600GJ bomb- and it’s not several blocks, it’s about ten blocks in any direction. I had a link to a site with a damage calculator you could test on various cities, it was from the anti-nuclear-weapon-scientists-coalition-I-always-forget-the-name-of. Lemme see if I can hunt it up for you.
the WTC collapse obviously did not. While that’s true, you need to know that conservation of energy says that energy NEVER disappears. It ALWAYS winds up SOMEWHERE, and if this is energy capable of knocking buildings over for many blocks in all directions, and it didn’t knock them over, then where did it go and what did it do? Answer: it went into the rubble pile, and it melted and burned stuff in there.
There was energy spent “pancaking” or “snapping supports” if you believe those theorys (I do not). Whether it was explosives or whether it was sheer mass and momentum that snapped them (and I have excellent reason to believe it was nothing but mass- you’ll see shortly), it STILL made heat, and that head STILL went into the debris pile at the bottom. Heat is energy and energy NEVER just “goes away.”
All the collapse theories say that the weight of the top of the building is what caused the collapse… well that is HALF true. The other half that you are overlooking is that THE GROUND was pushing UP WITH EQUAL FORCE. So, this force you are estimating was largely transmitted into the ground during the collapse, not the rubble afterwards. No, although you are pedantically correct insofar as the fact that the STATIC FORCE of the building pushes down and the ground pushes up, when the DYNAMIC FORCE of the collapse occurs, it is local to whatever is moving; this is because you are not technically correct, it’s the MOTION that causes the DYNAMIC force, and that force is (and must be, to collapse the building) many times the static forces of the building just standing there.
Kinetic energy is not perfectly conserved as heat… in fact, it is mostly released as seismic waves and sound waves. This is actually untrue, and there is an article on seismic waves that says so, I believe on 9/11 Research; you might have misinterpreted this article. You need to prove this claim if you’re going to make it; it’s hopeless, because it’s not how it works when you hit a piece of steel, concrete, or wood for that matter with a hammer, but go ahead and try. You’ll need a credible source, someone who actually has a degree IN PHYSICS, or a college textbook (this is a little advanced for highschool physics, unless it’s advanced considerably since back in the day), or something like that.
Don’t argue with Snark on biology, and don’t argue with Da Schneib on physics- he’s got a degree in bio and is currently teaching it, and I’ve been playing with physics for prolly longer than you been alive. I’m not insultin you, just sayin. I’d recommend against arguing with josh or me on computer science as well, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
My question is: How did you account for other forms of energy release besides heat? Please provide specifics. Seismic waves, sound waves, the energy absorbed by the collapsing structure, debris shot upwards. The total energy of all of those put together is miniscule; the seismic waves are the greatest portion, and are well under 0.01% of the total (that’s 1/10,000 in plain ratios, or 1/100 of a percent). Have a look at that paper I referred to; it’s a pretty easy search.
Now, for the program:
**BEGIN PROGRAM**
#!/usr/bin/perl
$m = 4285500; # mass of one floor (kg)
$mt = 0; # mass of falling section
$fc = 39; # floor count of falling section (39 floors for 2 WTC)
$v1 = 0; # beginning velocity for the current step
$v2 = 0; # velocity at impact
$v3 = 0; # ending velocity for prior step
$p = 0; # current momentum
$ke1 = 0; # kinetic energy at impact
$ke2 = 0; # kinetic energy after impact
$de = 0; # total energy dissipated so far
$a = 9.80665; # acceleration of gravity (constant)
$t = 0; # cumulative time taken
$t1 = 0; # time taken for this step
$d = 3.8; # distance between floors (418m/110 stories)
$mt = $fc*$m; # initialize mass of falling section
$rfc = 110 – $fc;# initialize remaining floor count of uncollapsed floors
while($rfc > 0) {
$v1 = $v3; # starting velocity is ending for last step
$v2 = (($v1*2)+((2$a)*$d))**0.5; # impact velocity for this step by formula
print(“Impact velocity for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $v2, “n”);
$p = $mt*$v2; # momentum at impact
print(“Impulse delivered for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $p, “n”);
$ke1 = ($mt*($v2**2))/2; # kinetic energy at impact
print(“Impact kinetic energy for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $ke1, “n”);
$fc++; # increment falling floor count
$mt = $fc*$m; # update mass of falling section
$v3 = $p/$mt; # new velocity
print(“Velocity after impact for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $v3, “n”);
$ke2 = ($mt*($v3**2))/2; # kinetic energy after impact
print(“Remaining kinetic energy for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $ke2, “n”);
$de += $ke1 – $ke2; # add dissipated kinetic energy to total
print(“The kinetic energy dissipated for story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $ke1 – $ke2, ”
n”);
$t1 = $d/(($v2 + $v1)/2); # time for this step by formula
print(“The time spent collapsing story ”, $rfc, ” was ”, $t1, “n”);
$t += $t1; # add step time to running total
$rfc—; # decrement remaining floor count
}
print(“The total time was ”, $t, “n”);
print(“The total energy dissipated during the collapse was ”, $de, “n”);
print(“The remaining kinetic energy at the end of the collapse was ”, $ke2, “n”
);
**END PROGRAM**
It’s a perl, you can download perl for just about anything from www.perl.org or somewhere they point. If you’re going to get involved in CS, somewhere you’re going to encounter perl, and now’s as good a time to learn it as any. I highly recommend the O’Reilly Press perl book which happens to be by the inventors of the language. Just so you can muddle your way through and derive the equations from the code above, * is multiplication, ** is raising to a power (and don’t forget that a fractional power is a root; so **0.5 is the square-root operation). The rest of the symbols are obvious, and the parentheses work the same way as they do in standard math notation. You should be aware that the single = in most languages simply ASSIGNS the value of what’s on the right to the thing on the left; usually, you’re required to put a single variable on the left of an =. The double == TESTS whether one value is equal to another, returning 1 or TRUE if it is, and 0 or FALSE if it is not.

http://cortez.gnn.tv/blogs/11271/9_11_WTC_...etal_Pics_Video
Guest_frater plecticus
grafitti seen in london...

QUOTE
Al-quaeda...... Is that the best you can come up with ?
adoucette
The guy was talking in generalities. The PILE of debris was NOT all pulverized.

This is ALSO from that article:

Combustion products continued to be emitted from the debris pile in the ensuing months. Dust was "no longer part of the plume per se after about day three or four because the rains came and washed some of the dust and smoke away," Lioy said. What was left were smoldering fires.

The fires, which began at over 1,000 °C, gradually cooled, at least on the surface, during September and October 2001. USGS's AVIRIS also measured temperatures when it flew over ground zero on Sept. 16 and 23. On Sept. 16, it picked up more than three dozen hot spots of varying size and temperature, roughly between 500 and 700 °C. By Sept. 23, only two or three of the hot spots remained, and those were sharply reduced in intensity, Clark said.

However, Clark doesn't know how deep into the pile AVIRIS could see. The infrared data certainly revealed surface temperatures, yet the smoldering piles below the surface may have remained at much higher temperatures. "In mid-October, in the evening," said Thomas A. Cahill, a retired professor of physics and atmospheric science at the University of California, Davis, "when they would pull out a steel beam, the lower part would be glowing dull red, which indicates a temperature on the order of 500 to 600 °C. And we know that people were turning over pieces of concrete in December that would flash into fire--which requires about 300 °C. So the surface of the pile cooled rather rapidly, but the bulk of the pile stayed hot all the way to December."

Arthur

frater plecticus
QUOTE (Common Sense+Jan 5 2006, 01:14 AM)
This picture proves it was a normal collapse because it's IMPOSSIBLE for a bomb to make a piece of steel glow red for 6 weeks.

NEVER in the HISTORY of controlled demolition has a piece of steel glowed hot red 6 weeks after it exploded.

Not even a NUCLEAR EXPLOSION keeps steel glowing red for 6 weeks.

PROOF!

User posted image

Not even smoke!

Why would an aircraft fuel fire do it then ?
galdur
The floor concrete slab sat on a corrugated steel pan.

The concrete was pulverized and the pans were shredded.

The notion that a pancaking collapse can achieve this is
totally out of touch with reality.

Furthermore floors 41 and 42 and 75 and 76 housed heavy
equipment and were all steel and especially massive. That
steel was shredded much as other steel in the towers.

The first 8 floors also were especially reinforced and of course
the structure was the more massive the closer to the ground.

The official theory is a simplistic fable, a fantasy. It violates
laws of nature and should be rejected out of hand. How people
can sit here and produce bunk that ignores simple physical
laws is beyond me.
Common Sense
QUOTE (frater plecticus+Jan 5 2006, 04:43 PM)
QUOTE (Common Sense+Jan 5 2006, 01:14 AM)
This picture proves it was a normal collapse because it's IMPOSSIBLE for a bomb to make a piece of steel glow red for 6 weeks.

NEVER in the HISTORY of controlled demolition has a piece of steel glowed hot red 6 weeks after it exploded.

Not even a NUCLEAR EXPLOSION keeps steel glowing red for 6 weeks.

PROOF!

User posted image

Not even smoke!

Why would an aircraft fuel fire do it then ?

According to this logic, when I barbeque I cook meat with lighter fluid. Why would lighter fluid cook it then?
galdur
At some point NIST will be forced to cook up some
fables regarding the collapse of WTC-7. No plane hit
that 47-story skyscraper and it had very limited fires.

Since that is obviously a controlled demolition it is no
wonder that NIST has dragged its feet for years. But
at some point they will be forced to address this case.

Most likely they will be forced to admit that it was brought
down. Then the twin tower pancake theory will look even
more nonsensical.
yesitdid
QUOTE
The pillars of the central cores were made of steel even 100 + 100 mm thick, thicker than the side armours of a battle tank.
<br>Some military expert!

Modern battle tanks employ re-active armour and steel encased depleted uranium passive armour. This is nothing like simple steel armour.

However the King Tiger tank of WW2 of course only had steel armour and it was 150mm thick.

The above statement by the supposed expert is extremely misleading at best
yesitdid
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 5 2006, 03:08 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 01:36 AM)
Unless, somehow, a bellows effect was created within the rubble pile.


<br>It's too bad the company of the coal minors who recently died, due to asphyxiation, didn't know this trick.

Since we're at it, here's my contribution: Vibrations from the city subways jiggled that rubble in just the right way to create a draft (not sure how the draft tunneled though the water and powder, but I'm sure adoucette will solve this mystery!)
Coal miners were not under a rubble pile.

However your subway theory does need a tweak. A rush of wind characterizes the approach of a subway train.
metamars
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 5 2006, 03:08 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 01:36 AM)
Unless, somehow, a bellows effect was created within the rubble pile.


<br>It's too bad the company of the coal minors who recently died, due to asphyxiation, didn't know this trick.

Since we're at it, here's my contribution: Vibrations from the city subways jiggled that rubble in just the right way to create a draft (not sure how the draft tunneled though the water and powder, but I'm sure adoucette will solve this mystery!)

Coal miners were not under a rubble pile.

However your subway theory does need a tweak. A rush of wind characterizes the approach of a subway train.

Are you actually DENYING that a bellows effect, worthy of even adoucette, existed in the mine? Remembers, all the moles and earthworms that dig tunnels, of the non-reinforced type. There's lots of compressibility in them there hills.

Indeed, for all we know, moles and earthworms suffer from windburn all the time.

Prove that they don't!

laugh.gif
metamars
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 05:11 PM)
QUOTE
The pillars of the central cores were made of steel even 100 + 100 mm thick, thicker than the side armours of a battle tank.
<br>Some military expert!

Modern battle tanks employ re-active armour and steel encased depleted uranium passive armour. This is nothing like simple steel armour.

However the King Tiger tank of WW2 of course only had steel armour and it was 150mm thick.

The above statement by the supposed expert is extremely misleading at best 100 + 100 > 150

Since there's was no depleted uranium in steel frame towers, that would be a poor comparison, don't you think?
yesitdid
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 5 2006, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 05:14 PM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 5 2006, 03:08 AM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 01:36 AM)
Unless, somehow, a bellows effect was created within the rubble pile.


<br>It's too bad the company of the coal minors who recently died, due to asphyxiation, didn't know this trick.

Since we're at it, here's my contribution: Vibrations from the city subways jiggled that rubble in just the right way to create a draft (not sure how the draft tunneled though the water and powder, but I'm sure adoucette will solve this mystery!)

Coal miners were not under a rubble pile.

However your subway theory does need a tweak. A rush of wind characterizes the approach of a subway train.

Are you actually DENYING that a bellows effect, worthy of even adoucette, existed in the mine? Remembers, all the moles and earthworms that dig tunnels, of the non-reinforced type. There's lots of compressibility in them there hills.

Indeed, for all we know, moles and earthworms suffer from windburn all the time.

Prove that they don't!

laugh.gif

Moles and earthworms don't go more than a few feet down so miners probably won't see any unless it is an open pit mine biggrin.gif

The miners who recently died succumbed to CO poisoning. CO is denser than normal air mixture and even if there were a bellows effect in place (how far down where they?) it would take a lot of pumping to replace enough CO to help them.

On the other hand there are coal mine fires that have raged for decades, managed to continue despite efforts to control them and done so with a limited air intake and an obvious build up of CO and other gasses.

I am saying that , as pointed out before, there are many avenues of investigation that could show a bellows effect helped produce the high temps in the rubble fire.
yesitdid
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 5 2006, 05:39 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 05:11 PM)
QUOTE
The pillars of the central cores were made of steel even 100 + 100 mm thick, thicker than the side armours of a battle tank.
<br>Some military expert!

Modern battle tanks employ re-active armour and steel encased depleted uranium passive armour. This is nothing like simple steel armour.

However the King Tiger tank of WW2 of course only had steel armour and it was 150mm thick.



The above statement by the supposed expert is extremely misleading at best
100 + 100 > 150

Since there's was no depleted uranium in steel frame towers, that would be a poor comparison, don't you think? ReferenceGood lord man. The tank has two sides as well. so OK 150mm + 150mm

As far as the DU goes, YES that was my very point. IF a modern tank only has 100mm of armour (actual thickness is classified) but is of DU then the 'expert' who used this number is out to lunch.


the Panzerkampfwagen VI Königstiger is listed as having 180mm armor
The Russia Heavy tank IS-3 had 200mm armor
adoucette
To compare steel used for the sides of the tank with the steel used for building columns is a stretch at best.

There are MANY different types of steel and the properties are specific to the function.

Arthur
yesitdid
QUOTE
This is clear as mud. Can you do any better?
<br>If the core is not visible to you in that picture then try the ones of your beloved 'spire'.
Explain how part of the core, not just any part but part of the lower core, remained after this supposed nuke directed steel sublimating heat and pressure at that very core.
yesitdid
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jan 5 2006, 03:23 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 5 2006, 02:39 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jan 5 2006, 02:03 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 5 2006, 01:50 AM)
QUOTE (reasonwhy+Jan 5 2006, 01:48 AM)
At all three buildings?

Why not?

You got pictures of glowing steel from all three buildings?

Post them.

Arthur

<img width='450' src='http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/hotspot.key.tgif.gif' border='0' alt='User posted image' />
Table 1 Thermal Hot Spot Data
Location Temperature Area
Hot Spot N Latitude W Longitude (Kelvin) % FOV sq meter
A 40o 42' 47.18" 74o 00' 41.43" 1000 15 0.56
B 40o 42' 47.14" 74o 00' 43.53" 830 2 0.08
C 40o 42' 42.89" 74o 00' 48.88" 900 20 0.8
D 40o 42' 41.99" 74o 00' 46.94" 790 20 0.8

E 40o 42' 40.58" 74o 00' 50.15" 710 10 0.4
F 40o 42' 38.74" 74o 00' 46.70" 700 10 0.4
G 40o 42' 39.94" 74o 00' 45.37" 1020 1 0.04
H 40o 42' 38.60" 74o 00' 43.51" 820 2 0.08

Positions are in degrees-minutes-decimal seconds, datum WGS84.
Position accuracy is estimated to be approximately +/- 6 meters (18 feet).

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2001/ofr-01-0429/thermal.r09.html

Steel don't glow at 1020 K, since that's only 747 deg C.

Good try though.

Arthur

How about bright Cherry then? Half way down is a color chart.

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
From the report

QUOTE
There are other red/orange spots that show in the images in the area south of the World Trade Center zone. These are hot spots from chimneys or heating exhaust vents and are normal and not other uncontrolled fires.
yesitdid
QUOTE (steve1957+Jan 5 2006, 04:47 AM)
QUOTE
metemars

My favorite hypothesis for the heat source in the basement is a micro nuke.
<br>I've heard several reports of serious RADIATION in the basement.

What about the possibility of some form of DEPLETED URANIUM?

The US military is notorious for using depleted uranium in much of it's arsenal. The 30 caliber machine guns strapped to the apache helicopters in Iraq use depleted uranium bullets, in fact that's not even a secret.

Remember this question is for metemars, gordon, foxx, and a few other people with intelligence, who value the truth, all nit-wits need not reply, because we already know your theory is that it was from a magician in a cave. Re: depleted uranium

It is also used as ballast in the control surfaces of large passenger aircraft.
Guest
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 07:51 PM)
QUOTE (steve1957+Jan 5 2006, 04:47 AM)
QUOTE
metemars

My favorite hypothesis for the heat source in the basement is a micro nuke.
<br>I've heard several reports of serious RADIATION in the basement.

What about the possibility of some form of DEPLETED URANIUM?

The US military is notorious for using depleted uranium in much of it's arsenal. The 30 caliber machine guns strapped to the apache helicopters in Iraq use depleted uranium bullets, in fact that's not even a secret.

Remember this question is for metemars, gordon, foxx, and a few other people with intelligence, who value the truth, all nit-wits need not reply, because we already know your theory is that it was from a magician in a cave.
Re: depleted uranium

It is also used as ballast in the control surfaces of large passenger aircraft. Is that for Boeing 767 and 757?
adoucette
no
bolt
QUOTE (guest+)
Is that for Boeing 767 and 757?

<br>DU is/was used in 747 planes mostly. 757 and 767 planes aren't known to have DU counterweights in them.
adoucette
757/767 use tungsten, not DU, DC-10s and older model 747s used DU.

Arthur
yesitdid
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 5 2006, 07:54 PM)
no
I stand corrected on DU possibly being in the Boeings then.

yesitdid
metamars, of those non-believers in the official record of the events of 9/11, you stand out in two ways. First in that you tend not to resort to invective that much and second that you display some technical knowledge.(not to snub others that also may fit bot categories)

However, I find your penchance for exotic weaponry as an explanation for what happened in Manhattan to be , frankly, bizzare.

Masers, mirco-nukes or as yet unknown energy weapons truly are a reach IMHO.

It seems your are hearing hoofbeats and looking for the zebras while residing at a horse ranch.
Common Sense
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 08:27 PM)
metamars, of those non-believers in the official record of the events of 9/11, you stand out in two ways. First in that you tend not to resort to invective that much and second that you display some technical knowledge.(not to snub others that also may fit bot categories)

However, I find your penchance for exotic weaponry as an explanation for what happened in Manhattan to be , frankly, bizzare.

Masers, mirco-nukes or as yet unknown energy weapons truly are a reach IMHO.

It seems your are hearing hoofbeats and looking for the zebras while residing at a horse ranch.
Your observation lends more credibility to Schneibster's post..

QUOTE
2. I drew out and proved the existence of a number of individuals who had personal stakes in the discussion, specifically in that they were/are either selling merchandise to make a profit off the CTs, or providing web sites that have pay-per-view advertising, for which they are paid each time someone visits the site and sees the ad. These individuals are involved for selfish reasons in the debate, yet do not immediately reveal that they are. I think that the conclusion to be drawn is obvious.

3. No one seems to have noticed that all the calculations I have done have been in support of Bazant and Zhou's papers, and my assertions have not been credibly attacked. Faux claims to have done so, but Faux makes many unsubstantiated claims. I'm sure that providing links to substantiation of any such claims is far beyond anything Faux is prepared to do; certainly it is well beyond anything that I have seen it do. Has anyone else noted that Faux' links invariably lead to Faux' site? Gee, I wonder why that is. NOT.

4. Despite conclusive proof that the majority of "CTs" (apologies to YID but I didn't make any offers to be polite) appear to have an actual financial stake in the continuation of the CT, y'all have managed to add another hundred pages to this thread.

Having fun baiting the trolls? We used to enjoy it when someone would join chat and try to sell us into visiting an advertising site for the latest CT movie.

Carry on.
yesitdid
Schneibster need not apologize to me. I choose what to call those who oppose me he chooses his path. I still reserve the right to give what from any other poster. gordon has not been that bad IMHO and claims to have no theory. As far as I am concerned calling someone with no theory, a CT, is a misnomer.

metamars also is relatively calm and seems to actually want to discuss this. My observation above is not meant as an insult, it is my opinion of some the types of theory that he is putting forth.
Common Sense
Metamars and Gordon are exactly the reason Schneibster's post rings true.

1 Micro-nukes directed at the core which leave the core standing ("Elevator cannon theory" because elevators would have been shot into the atmosphere like from a cannon)

2 They can believe this Micro-Nuke leaves steel about 1000 degrees for over 6 weeks but the same or more energy released in a normal collapse couldn't produce the same result.

3 The top of a mushroom cloud which has more destructive energy than point of explosion.

These are not stupid people which make me wonder why they even concider this. Something else is at work here.

It also tells me even if a video came out documenting each step Al Qeada took they would ceate a reason why it's suspect.

I think I'm done here too..
metamars
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 07:24 PM)
QUOTE
This is clear as mud. Can you do any better?
<br>If the core is not visible to you in that picture then try the ones of your beloved 'spire'.
Explain how part of the core, not just any part but part of the lower core, remained after this supposed nuke directed steel sublimating heat and pressure at that very core.
You are assuming the spire is part of the core. Frankly, I can't tell for sure. However, the apparent "belting" implies exterior columns, in which case your concern has no merit. There would be the issue, though, of how the "horizontal demolition" agent(s) that destroyed exterior columns missed.

So, in either case, your question is a good one.

How does the FEMA Fairy Tale explain the existence of the spires? Did gravity "miss"? Since the spire stood perfectly straight (as far as I can tell) before it weakened and started wobbling, (which it did before it's powerderizing, telescoping collapse, please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least. Indeed, the torgues should have applied more or less the rotational vector, but at different spots. Therefore, the effect of multiple kinks should be additive, and thus thus more visible.

The FEMA/NIST Fairy Tale believers, who believe that columns "fail" once a local collapse gets going, have not (and cannot) reasonably explain how there can be columns that don't "fail". If they state that the floor trusses "just broke", how do they explain that they only decided to break for the spire columns?

Once again, thinking about the collapse data reveals yet another strong argument for dismissing the FEMA Fairy Tale.

Thank-you for asking this question. I have never before listed this (i.e, the existence of the straight spire BEFORE it's collapse) as one of the reasons for disbelieving the FEMA Fairy Tale.

I note that holding a micro-nuke hypothesis, which may have to be discarded at some point, is diistinct from criticizing the FEMA "well, we just KNOW that global collapse is inevitable" Fairy Tales , which I discarded long ago as having 0 plausibility.
brian
Edit - Directed at pre metamars post

Yes lads, take yourselves seriously, no one else will.

Parallels Between Pearl Harbor and 9/11



Extract -

Gagging Whisteblowers

Two weeks after Pearl Harbor, the Navy classified all documents TOP SECRET, and the Navy Director of Communications sent a memo ordering all commanders to "destroy all notes or anything in writing" related to the attacks. More importantly, all radio operators and cryptographers were gagged on threat of imprisonment and loss of all benefits. (page 256)

Scapegoating and labels of "conspiracy theory"

The commanders in Hawaii, General Short and Admiral Kimmel, were scapegoated as being the cause for the "surprise" attack on Pearl Harbor (they were recently cleared by Congress).

And, according to a statement made to me privately by a leading Pearl Harbor scholar, the government repeatedly denied foreknowledge and labelled anyone who discussed the military's prior knowledge of the attacks as a nutty conspiracy theorist.

Media Complicity

Amazingly, the Army’s Chief of Staff informed the Washington bureau chiefs of the major newspapers and magazines of the impending attacks BEFORE THEY OCCURRED, and swore them to an oath of secrecy, which the media honored (page 361). In other words, there apparently was a conspiracy between the media and leading media regarding the impending Pearl Harbor attacks.

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/
metamars
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 08:27 PM)
metamars, of those non-believers in the official record of the events of 9/11, you stand out in two ways. First in that you tend not to resort to invective that much and second that you display some technical knowledge.(not to snub others that also may fit bot categories)

However, I find your penchance for exotic weaponry as an explanation for what happened in Manhattan to be , frankly, bizzare.

Masers, mirco-nukes or as yet unknown energy weapons truly are a reach IMHO.

It seems your are hearing hoofbeats and looking for the zebras while residing at a horse ranch.
Is that what that funny noise was! biggrin.gif

The collapse of the spire cannot be explained by standard physics. If it could have, it would have.

Of course, if you want to present the evidence to a physics professor, you don't have to trust my statement on this. If you do, please take careful notes and post here what the learned professor(s) tells you. Perhaps I slept through some of my courses....
reasonwhy
QUOTE (brian+Jan 5 2006, 11:32 PM)
Edit - Directed at pre metamars post

Yes lads, take yourselves seriously, no one else will.

Parallels Between Pearl Harbor and 9/11



Extract -

Gagging Whisteblowers

Two weeks after Pearl Harbor, the Navy classified all documents TOP SECRET, and the Navy Director of Communications sent a memo ordering all commanders to "destroy all notes or anything in writing" related to the attacks. More importantly, all radio operators and cryptographers were gagged on threat of imprisonment and loss of all benefits. (page 256)

Scapegoating and labels of "conspiracy theory"

The commanders in Hawaii, General Short and Admiral Kimmel, were scapegoated as being the cause for the "surprise" attack on Pearl Harbor (they were recently cleared by Congress).

And, according to a statement made to me privately by a leading Pearl Harbor scholar, the government repeatedly denied foreknowledge and labelled anyone who discussed the military's prior knowledge of the attacks as a nutty conspiracy theorist.

Media Complicity

Amazingly, the Army’s Chief of Staff informed the Washington bureau chiefs of the major newspapers and magazines of the impending attacks BEFORE THEY OCCURRED, and swore them to an oath of secrecy, which the media honored (page 361). In other words, there apparently was a conspiracy between the media and leading media regarding the impending Pearl Harbor attacks.

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/

Wonder were the shills hung out in those days calling anyone questioning the official story “nutty conspiracy theorist?”
Foxx
QUOTE (Common Sense+Jan 5 2006, 09:43 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 08:27 PM)
metamars, of those non-believers in the official record of the events of 9/11, you stand out in two ways. First in that you tend not to resort to invective that much and second that you display some technical knowledge.(not to snub others that also may fit bot categories)

However, I find your penchance for exotic weaponry as an explanation for what happened in Manhattan to be , frankly, bizzare.

Masers, mirco-nukes or as yet unknown energy weapons truly are a reach IMHO.

It seems your are hearing hoofbeats and looking for the zebras while residing at a horse ranch.

Your observation lends more credibility to Schneibster's post..

QUOTE
2. I drew out and proved the existence of a number of individuals who had personal stakes in the discussion, specifically in that they were/are either selling merchandise to make a profit off the CTs, or providing web sites that have pay-per-view advertising, for which they are paid each time someone visits the site and sees the ad. These individuals are involved for selfish reasons in the debate, yet do not immediately reveal that they are. I think that the conclusion to be drawn is obvious.

3. No one seems to have noticed that all the calculations I have done have been in support of Bazant and Zhou's papers, and my assertions have not been credibly attacked. Faux claims to have done so, but Faux makes many unsubstantiated claims. I'm sure that providing links to substantiation of any such claims is far beyond anything Faux is prepared to do; certainly it is well beyond anything that I have seen it do. Has anyone else noted that Faux' links invariably lead to Faux' site? Gee, I wonder why that is. NOT.

4. Despite conclusive proof that the majority of "CTs" (apologies to YID but I didn't make any offers to be polite) appear to have an actual financial stake in the continuation of the CT, y'all have managed to add another hundred pages to this thread.

Having fun baiting the trolls? We used to enjoy it when someone would join chat and try to sell us into visiting an advertising site for the latest CT movie.

Carry on.
BWAAAAHahahahahahahahaha !!!

Carry on Schneibster biggrin.gif I think I might make up a Mr. Hyde for myself, so that I can pat myself on the back too... hehehehe

Who do you Really think your are fooling (besides yourself)?
reasonwhy

The government does not think Micro nukes are that bizarre( from over 15 years ago):

Well, Los Alamos National Lab scientists Dowler and Howard described four new types of nukes in "Countering the Threat of the Well-armed Tyrant: A Modest Proposal for Small Nuclear Weapons" (Strategic Review, Fall 1991).
• 10-ton-yield penetrating "micro-nukes" to destroy bunkers.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=21421
metamars
QUOTE (Common Sense+Jan 5 2006, 10:39 PM)
Metamars and Gordon are exactly the reason Schneibster's post rings true.

1 Micro-nukes directed at the core which leave the core standing ("Elevator cannon theory" because elevators would have been shot into the atmosphere like from a cannon)

2 They can believe this Micro-Nuke leaves steel about 1000 degrees for over 6 weeks but the same or more energy released in a normal collapse couldn't produce the same result.

3 The top of a mushroom cloud which has more destructive energy than point of explosion.

These are not stupid people which make me wonder why they even concider this. Something else is at work here.

It also tells me even if a video came out documenting each step Al Qeada took they would ceate a reason why it's suspect.

I think I'm done here too..

1000 C after weeks, even with insulation, clearly implies a higher temperature on 911. Higher temperatures are not a problem with micro-nukes! The trouble the FEMA Fairy Tale believers have is : how do you get UP to such a temperature. Getting DOWN to such a temperature is just what you expect from physics, since heat flows from higher temperature regions to lower ones..

Note, too, that high temperatures are consistent with a hot dust cloud, ala Hoffman. Some people who have previously told us that the dust cloud could not have been too hot, now find themselves trying to explain an extraordinary heat from in the rubble's steel.


One has to give them credit for their persistence...
steve1957
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fireplace grid
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The fire was almost out
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IMPOSSIBLE!
Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
metamars, of those non-believers in the official record of the events of 9/11, you stand out in two ways. First in that you tend not to resort to invective that much and second that you display some technical knowledge.(not to snub others that also may fit bot categories)

However, I find your penchance for exotic weaponry as an explanation for what happened in Manhattan to be , frankly, bizzare.

Masers, mirco-nukes or as yet unknown energy weapons truly are a reach IMHO.

It seems your are hearing hoofbeats and looking for the zebras while residing at a horse ranch.
<br>Interesting & revealing viewpoint, YID.

I've been sitting back and watching this 'hot-spots' discussion with a Big Grin... (mostly at some of the nonsense posted in desperation by the gravity-driven collapse supporters).

HA ! Amazing Nonsense.

I especially howled at the 'Amazing Bellows in the Basement' Theory... hilarious stuff !!!

It has taken two days to clean my keyboard of the beer spurted through my nostrils (like squibs) when I read that one. biggrin.gif

Now YID, somewhere you mentioned that I once proposed Thermite may have been contributory to these underground fires.

This was partly based upon the fact that the fires could NOT be put out with water. As one of the firefighters said ...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
Originally posted by YID
metamars, of those non-believers in the official record of the events of 9/11, you stand out in two ways. First in that you tend not to resort to invective that much and second that you display some technical knowledge.(not to snub others that also may fit bot categories)

However, I find your penchance for exotic weaponry as an explanation for what happened in Manhattan to be , frankly, bizzare.

Masers, mirco-nukes or as yet unknown energy weapons truly are a reach IMHO.

It seems your are hearing hoofbeats and looking for the zebras while residing at a horse ranch.
<br>Interesting & revealing viewpoint, YID.

I've been sitting back and watching this 'hot-spots' discussion with a Big Grin... (mostly at some of the nonsense posted in desperation by the gravity-driven collapse supporters).

HA ! Amazing Nonsense.

I especially howled at the 'Amazing Bellows in the Basement' Theory... hilarious stuff !!!

It has taken two days to clean my keyboard of the beer spurted through my nostrils (like squibs) when I read that one. biggrin.gif

Now YID, somewhere you mentioned that I once proposed Thermite may have been contributory to these underground fires.

This was partly based upon the fact that the fires could NOT be put out with water. As one of the firefighters said ...

"we poured a lake of water on those fires, and no matter how much water we poured on, the fires just would NOT go out or subside"
<br>FACT 1 - Thermite (as an incendiary) can NOT be put out or suppressed with water. This is because, due to the nature of the thermite reaction, adding H2O does NOTHING except add a ready supply of oxygen for the reaction to feed upon. Water actually increases the burn of thermite, and can do so explosively... (even though thermite / diasite is not generally classed as an 'explosive')

Perhaps it is merely coincidental that (of all suggestions put forward to this date that I have encountered)... Thermite provides a ready & plausible answer to two of these biggest anomalies of the 'hot spots'.

The gravity-driven collapse supporters have a serious problem in providing a reasonable and viable (plausible)explanation as to how these underground fires could persist for weeks in a compressed state in an oxygen-starved environment, while all during that time a concerted fire-fighting effort continues to pouring an 'entire lake of water into the pile'.

Exactly the reason FEMA, ASCE, NIST, etc skirt around and DON'T EVEN ATTEMPT to provide any plausible 'explanation' (other than hoping everyone will just forget about it IF NO ONE MENTIONS IT).

Thermite 'solves' the riddle of how anomalous fires can burn in an oxygen-starved environment while pouring a 'lake' of water on them... The 'extinquishing agent' (water) is actually enhancing the 'burning' by providing the necessary oxygen required to 'bellows' the fire (as opposed to 'worm-holes').

For every nonsensical 'excuse' of how the air (O2) was getting to the fire, the question must be asked and answered...

well how could the O2 get to the fire to feed the 'bellows' of that fire, YET the lake of water could not find those 'worm-holes' (or however else the air was getting to the fire)... Again, Thermite answers the question plausibly, realistically, and scientifically.

FACT 2 - When thermite / diasite burns, it produces ultraviolet radiation.

Now, let's try to remember back to the time when fire-fighter engineers (after trying for weeks to control this underground fire) gave up and called 'Pyrocool'...

http://www.pyrocool.org/news.htm

QUOTE
On the morning of September 30, two thousand gallons of PYROCOOL FEF was delivered to the Liberty Sector Command Post at Liberty and West Streets, adjacent to the West side of what was the North Tower. Staging operations were coordinated by WTC Incident Command and FDNY Research and Development (R&D) that would apply PYROCOOL to two areas of immediate concern - the debris field on the West side of the North Tower and the backside of the debris field of the Federal Building (No. Seven). For the Building Seven operation, a 75-foot ladder tower (Truck Company 133-Brooklyn) was utilized, together with a 500 GPM Akron eductor. Foam was applied, at approximately 500 GPM, for two hours to the middle section of Building Seven, after which a portable infrared camera revealed that the area had been fully extinguished. In fact, no hot spots were found in the area where PYROCOOL had been applied.
<br>Pyrocool FEF had been used prior (in the civilian sector) to put out troublesome fires, however, prior to Sept 11, 2001 Pyrocool FEF was used mostly by the military to douse incendiary attacks (Incendiary armour piercing weapons fire).

Why does Pyrocool work so well to put out these fires?

Well, it 'smothers' the oxygen-absorbing ability of thermite / diasite based incendiary for one, and secondly it absorbs ultraviolet radiation.

It MAY be JUST A COINCIDENCE that Pyrocool FEF absorbs ultraviolet radiation AND the Thermite reaction GIVES OFF ultraviolet radiation... nevertheless...

These ARE FACTS.

Could ultraviolet radiation be a cause of the anomalous mysterious 'lightening' of video frames after the fall of the towers?

I don't know... but ... maybe?

What we have here (that can BE scientifically proven)...

a - a compressed mass of rubble continued to burn for weeks after the 'attack / collapse'

b - a 'lake' of water was applied to douse this persistant fire

c - water had NO EFFECT to douse or suppress the fires

d - water will 'FEED' a thermite / diasite reaction

e - a thermite / diasite reaction gives off ultraviolet radiation

f - Pyrocool absorbs ultraviolet radiation whilst dousing the oxygen-absorbing ability of a thermite / diasite based incendiary

g - Pyrocool reached the areas of the 'underground fires' and put them out, whereas ALL other fire-fighting efforts failed.

h - Pyrocool was specifically developed to fight 'incendiary' fires (primarily for use in military theaters).

Based upon the above, I believe a good (and plausible) case is presented which MIGHT LEAD AN INTELLIGENT PERSON to SUSPECT thermite/diasite as a 'source' of the underground fires.

ALL of the above is based upon pure scientific FACTS.

The 'logical' rebuttal to these FACTS is NOT based upon un-biased science but rather the 'emotional' aspects...

HOW could such 'quantities' of thermite be delivered and placed within the towers beforehand?

WHY?

Thermite burns at a rapid rate, therefore HOW MUCH thermite was needed to be placed to keep the fire burning for such extended periods?

How does a thermite/incendiary fire react in a compressed state?

Sorry, I can't answer THESE questions any better than anyone else here.

Yid, while I would agree with you that 'atomic' explosions are pretty 'far-out'. Masers (and such)... I don't have enough knowledge in these fields to support or dismiss such 'exotics'....

You still lack credibility in attempting to support the official Fairy Tale story with regard to the above facts.

The ONLY 'evidence' you have is the sophistry of ...

QUOTE (->
QUOTE
On the morning of September 30, two thousand gallons of PYROCOOL FEF was delivered to the Liberty Sector Command Post at Liberty and West Streets, adjacent to the West side of what was the North Tower. Staging operations were coordinated by WTC Incident Command and FDNY Research and Development (R&D) that would apply PYROCOOL to two areas of immediate concern - the debris field on the West side of the North Tower and the backside of the debris field of the Federal Building (No. Seven). For the Building Seven operation, a 75-foot ladder tower (Truck Company 133-Brooklyn) was utilized, together with a 500 GPM Akron eductor. Foam was applied, at approximately 500 GPM, for two hours to the middle section of Building Seven, after which a portable infrared camera revealed that the area had been fully extinguished. In fact, no hot spots were found in the area where PYROCOOL had been applied.
<br>Pyrocool FEF had been used prior (in the civilian sector) to put out troublesome fires, however, prior to Sept 11, 2001 Pyrocool FEF was used mostly by the military to douse incendiary attacks (Incendiary armour piercing weapons fire).

Why does Pyrocool work so well to put out these fires?

Well, it 'smothers' the oxygen-absorbing ability of thermite / diasite based incendiary for one, and secondly it absorbs ultraviolet radiation.

It MAY be JUST A COINCIDENCE that Pyrocool FEF absorbs ultraviolet radiation AND the Thermite reaction GIVES OFF ultraviolet radiation... nevertheless...

These ARE FACTS.

Could ultraviolet radiation be a cause of the anomalous mysterious 'lightening' of video frames after the fall of the towers?

I don't know... but ... maybe?

What we have here (that can BE scientifically proven)...

a - a compressed mass of rubble continued to burn for weeks after the 'attack / collapse'

b - a 'lake' of water was applied to douse this persistant fire

c - water had NO EFFECT to douse or suppress the fires

d - water will 'FEED' a thermite / diasite reaction

e - a thermite / diasite reaction gives off ultraviolet radiation

f - Pyrocool absorbs ultraviolet radiation whilst dousing the oxygen-absorbing ability of a thermite / diasite based incendiary

g - Pyrocool reached the areas of the 'underground fires' and put them out, whereas ALL other fire-fighting efforts failed.

h - Pyrocool was specifically developed to fight 'incendiary' fires (primarily for use in military theaters).

Based upon the above, I believe a good (and plausible) case is presented which MIGHT LEAD AN INTELLIGENT PERSON to SUSPECT thermite/diasite as a 'source' of the underground fires.

ALL of the above is based upon pure scientific FACTS.

The 'logical' rebuttal to these FACTS is NOT based upon un-biased science but rather the 'emotional' aspects...

HOW could such 'quantities' of thermite be delivered and placed within the towers beforehand?

WHY?

Thermite burns at a rapid rate, therefore HOW MUCH thermite was needed to be placed to keep the fire burning for such extended periods?

How does a thermite/incendiary fire react in a compressed state?

Sorry, I can't answer THESE questions any better than anyone else here.

Yid, while I would agree with you that 'atomic' explosions are pretty 'far-out'. Masers (and such)... I don't have enough knowledge in these fields to support or dismiss such 'exotics'....

You still lack credibility in attempting to support the official Fairy Tale story with regard to the above facts.

The ONLY 'evidence' you have is the sophistry of ...

it is unreasonable to support the 'thermite theory' because HOW, WHO, or WHY did such a thing?
<br>These are subjective issues.

Sorry, buddy - it doesn't hold water any better than Arthurian legends.

Your 'questions' regarding the above FACTS revolve around sophistry... NOT Science.

I must admit that the 'thermite theory' is nothing MORE than that ... Just a Theory... a Postulation.

But from where I sit, it is much more 'plausible' than 'worm-holes'.

Anyone else agree?

To be honest, I will be putting much more credence to rational answers to this 'theory' than I will be with wasting time with 'shill answers'.

Cheers
Guest_Jeff
Foxx, this is a effing good find. I think you've connected some major dots there.
reasonwhy
Has, “Calculations on the Possible Use of Thermite
to Melt Sections of the WTC Core Columns” been discussed on this thread?

http://www.physics911.net/thermite.htm
"In the preceding section, the amount of thermite needed to cause melting was calculated, and compared to the internal volume available. Just as insulation in building walls is introduced by means of relatively small holes drilled through walls, so could thermite have been placed into the interiors of the core box columns. For the "average" columns this would certainly work, since there is ample volume to overcharge with a low packing density (>0.5). The "largest" columns could be filled in the same way, although some way to "settle" the compound powders might be necessary to achieve a packing density from a pour to be > 0.68."

"Rather than fill the interior of a column with chemical compound, what if the thermite compound was applied to the outside of the column, under a layer of "fire-proofing" protective cladding/thermal insulation? How thick would an exterior layer need to be applied?"
“In short, if a coating slightly less than 3" thick of a thermite like coating were applied to the outer surfaces of the box columns, that volume would contain sufficient energy to account for the pyroclastic cloud, under the conditions of the largest energy sink calculated by Hoffman.”
RealityCheck
Hi Foxx, metamars et al.

Just surfing through and noticed a few items I wish to comment on.

(1) Foxx...I noticed in a post of yours that you implied that I needed to 'google' (or even 'wikipedia) for my answers to questions. I don't know if you realise that I at least DO NOT NEED to 'google' for knowledge on MANY (if at all) areas of science/technology...mainly because it is ORIGINAL RESEACHERS/EXPERIMENTERS like MYSELF who would most likely CONTRIBUTE TO rather than DEPEND ON such sites as are referred to by others. As for my accessing sites on the web, you have already heard how I am using 'non-standard' and 'old' comp/browser etc.and THAT plus my 'iffy' dial-up and sometimes 'failure prone' internet connection/access does NOT allow me to follow even the links provided by YOU guys, let alone through 'googling' etc. Ninety-nine percent of what I post here depends on MY MEMORY and EXPERIENCE/EXPERIMENTS and otherwise 'direct research' in the past aimed at specific problem-solving. So I would appreciate it if you went back and edited your relevant post to remove me from the list of 'people' dependent on 'googling' etc.

(2) Regarding the rubble fire/heat etc:

- as to OXYGEN PATHS through rubble: One needs only read up on how people (including my parents in the old country and pioneers in my new country Australia) used to make charcoal to see that oxygen starvation doesn't always equate to 'cool' combustion processes. The wood to be charcoaled is heaped and set alight and covered with wet bark sealed with mud. The low-oxygen slow-combustion process gets hot enough to drive OUT (MOLECULARLY DISSOCIATE) the 'fixed' HYDROGEN from the hydrocarbon molecules in the lignin (wood) and burns with the available oxygen to keep the heat at th e required high temps. Note that because there is very little fast-moving air, the heat is NOT dissipated but trapped within the cocooning heap-layers and bark. So there is plenty of interstitial spaces in even the most dense rubble pile to reproduce 'charcoaling' conditions/processes. When opened to the air, this CHARCOAL (before the advent of COKE, which is 'charcoaled' COAL instead of wood) was used as HIGH ENEGY/TEMP FUEL IN SMELTING and FORGES...producing much heat and CO2 but very little flame/smoke. And of course, as much of the INTEGRAL SHAPE/BULK of the wood/Aluminium burnt away, there would be NEWLY_OPENED pathways/gaps for further air infiltration/circulation etc.

- as for RUBBLE COMPOSITION/TEMPS: As you yourselves have observed, the towers were mostly steel beams, Aluminium (trim, windows, facades, office equipment, fixtures and fittings) and WOODEN office furniture and cloth/paper etc. This mixture would act like THERMITE in that all the oxygen and fuel was contained within the matrix of the rubble pile. Once set burning, the 'shredded' aluminium would extract oxygen from previously 'bound' H2O and CO2 released by 'calcined' concrete, and the hydrocarbons would extract oxygen from the low-flow air supply which would mimic the 'charcoaling' conditions I described in (1) above. These would be SLOW-PROGRESS but HIGH-TEMP conditions wherein the combustion heat could not easily escape, and so PREHEATED the COMPONENTS before they combined, thus producing EVEN HOTTER TEMPS etc etc in a self-reinforcing 'reverberative/regenerative-heating process for pre-combustion components. So Foxx is right, the mixture DID behave (in some parts more than others) like a 'thermite reactor'...which easily explains red hot steel at certain spots coinciding with these charcoaling/thermite-type combustion spots.

(3) Regarding why some BIT of the STEEL FRAME is 'left standing' for a time at the bottom: That is the nature of CHAOTIC PROCESSES/PHENOMENA (just like a twister going through a neighbourhood will leave ONE house virtually intact while ALL AROUND IT the other houses are flattened...it all depends on where the relatively calm 'eye' of the storm/CHAOS has passed). And anyone who has thrown a bunch of sticks in the air will see that often the pile is 'high' enough to act as 'bracing' for one or more sticks which fell 'vertically' and stuck that way until the rest of the pile gives way and the upright sticks 'lever' their way to collapse onto the rest of the pile. A study of CHAOTIC SYSTEMS?PROCESSES is necessary if one one is to fully understand these things. Can't be avoided if one is to be truly informed in such matters.

These are merely SOME of the MORE OBVIOUS things I can associate FROM MEMORY with the relevant situations described within this thread (and I have only the postings of YOU GUYS to go on as to the situations I comment upon...as I have great difficulty getting to, let alone entering/extracting from the linked sites).

BTW, it was I that pointed out many of the 'constituent requirements' that are now being discussed as possibilities...like Aluminium as fuel; and "ground-effect" as a factor in the Pentagon plane behaviour etc. Also, any water being put onto such a rubble pile where incandescent CARBON is still present would produce SYNGAS (water and hot carbon produce a mixture of CO, CO2 and HYDROGEN gases) which would burn in air as it moved up near the surface. Oh, and if anyone has doubts that NATURE/CHANCE can produce the necessary FLUKE conditions by random mixing/coincidence, they should study up on the (I think) "OKLO"? Natural Fission Reactor conditions which came together by RARE (even 'unique') chance to replicate what man has done since. Good luck and good thinking in the New Year, everyone!

RealityCheck.
.
Foxx
Thanks, ReasonWhy...

I find this is relevant...

Version 1.1, June 20th 2004

Abstract

Anomalies involving the collapse of WTC buildings on 9-11 are discussed from the perspective of possible controlled demolition implosion rather than of aircraft impact and fuel-fire damage. Considered is the possible use of thermite to melt sections of the columns of the WTC towers inner cores, thus aiding in their collapse. This paper will discuss the structure of the WTC core columns, and estimate the mass of metal to be melted; calculate the sensible and latent heat energy needed for melting this mass; discuss the nature and specific energies of the thermite reaction; estimate the mass and volume of thermite necessary to provide the energies for melting; and discuss the possible locations where such thermite could be placed to cause melting, both internal and external to a core column.


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Prologue

The motivation for this paper was to apply physical and mathematical analysis to probably the most observed and least ephemeral 9-11 event: the collapses of the WTC towers. Uncounted millions have seen video footage of these collapses (and the later collapse of WTC-7). To an impartial observer, somehow unfamiliar with the 911 events, it would be difficult to distinguish between interspersed videos of the WTC collapses and those of controlled demolitions (particularly if the pre-collapse fire/smoke were digitally removed). In addition to the video evidence and eyewitness accounts of the many squib explosions associated with WTC events, the problem of the collapse of the central cores of the WTC towers remains. These cores were substantial structures unto themselves. They were probably capable of standing on their own (at least for a while), even if the outer tube walls and floors collapsed around them rings-around-a-tube style (assuming the “official” explanations of failed floor joist bolts are to be believed).

Thermite has been proposed as a chemical reactant that is capable of achieving the collapse of the central cores of the WTC towers. The thermite reaction produces great heat, capable of melting steel, and since it does not produce reactant gases, there would not be the high explosive signature of a massive shock wave. It is the rapid production and heating of gas reaction products that causes destructive shock waves from high explosives. The possible use of thermite was analyzed only because other researchers have proposed it and because the properties of the reaction are relatively easy to obtain. Undoubtedly, any number of heat producing, relatively non-explosive reactants that are more sophisticated and compact than thermite exist, but for the purposes of initial analysis, and determining the boundary conditions, it was felt that thermite was a reasonable first choice. Clearly the perpetrators of 911 did not want to leave the explosive signature of a controlled demolition.

The purpose of this paper was thus to put forth a quantitative analysis of various phenomena surrounding the WTC towers’ collapses, in order to see what is possible. Because the government authorities have destroyed much of the forensic evidence at the WTC building collapse scene, calculations such those done in this paper must remain speculative. However, the strength of this paper is to show how scientific analysis and critical thinking can show what is possible – or impossible. Whether or not conventional chemical reactants are sufficiently powerful to achieve column section melting, the outcome is equally valuable scientifically. This is the scientific process, to use quantitative analysis to discard the improbable theory: putting a number on observations makes a great difference (some might say all the difference) in the process of determining what is reality and what is fairy tale.


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Introduction

Of the events of 11 September '01, perhaps the most dramatic were the collapses of the WTC towers. Re-played repeatedly on TV, the images of the collapsing towers and their pyroclastic clouds of debris are seared into our memories.

What immediately struck some observers, this author included, is how much these collapses resembled a controlled demolition. Indeed, this was the first reaction of V. Romero of New Mexico Tech, until he recanted days later [Ref. (1)]. There has been much discussion on the internet of the observed anomalies associated with the WTC building collapses (including the delayed collapse of the unstruck WTC7). Interesting sites can be found at www.serendipity.li, www.americanfreepress.net , www.misternet.org, www.911-strike.com , www.plaguepuppy.net, www.whatreallyhappened.com and many others ( a google search is always useful).

One site deals directly with aircraft impact and fuel-fire physics [Ref. (2)]. The very anomalous case of the WTC7 building collapse was archived at Ref. (3); especially interesting are the observations by the inspection engineer at WTC7 of evidence for vaporized steel. As always, information about controversial events like 911 must be approached with some caution, and are not to be taken at face value. Careful analysis and appraisal is necessary. The internet has gained a reputation as a refuge of "conspiracy theorists," but recent events (e.g., the falsehoods told by US officials leading up to the Iraq war) have shown that "reputable" media are not to be trusted. They may themselves be regarded as purveyors of "official" conspiracy theories. This present paper hopes to achieve some level of objectivity about a very controversial subject.

(Occasionally, the media slips up. One noted instance is in the case of WTC7 where in a Sept. 2002 PBS documentary “Rebuilding America, A Year at Ground Zero,” Larry Silverstein, the leaseholder of the WTC complex, admitted that he and the NYFD made the decision to “pull” the badly damaged WTC7: i.e., to bring down the building in a controlled demolition [Ref. (14)]. To the author’s knowledge, the major media have yet to comment on Silverstein’s statement that directly refutes the FEMA report on the WTC7 collapse).

Total objectivity is of course impossible. Subjectively, for this author, several subevents of the WTC collapses stand out: the reported seismic spikes associated with the collapses; the observed near free-fall times of collapse; the pyroclastic clouds of debris; and the pools of molten steel found in the basement of the WTC tower complex, steel still warm weeks after 9-11. Analysis of the seismic spikes indicate that the seismic spikes correlate with the collapses themselves rather than any pre-collapse explosion [Ref. (4)].

Calculations done by the author correlated the collapse energies with the seismic signal of explosions at a quarry in the vicinity of the seismic observatory. These calculations indicate that the seismic spikes of the WTC events represent energies close to those of the collapses themselves (see Appendix A for these seismic energy correlation calculations). A sole video clip purported to show, by video image shaking, evidence of a pre-collapse WTC2 explosion is not conclusive. A video with shake-free periods for several minutes before and after collapse is not available. Therefore, wind flutter has not been disproved as a cause of camera shaking. A second video from another perspective is not available to show pre-collapse shaking temporally correlated with the first video. The existence of such a second video from an independent source would make such video evidence more credible [Ref. (5)]. From these observations, the author has concluded that there is no firm evidence of pre-collapse explosions that left seismic signatures.

[A brief note here about the mathematical notation used in this paper: subscripts, superscripts and exotic math symbols have not been used. Unlike most word processor programs, most email formats do not support these fonts. So, for example, ten to the nth power is denoted here by 10+n; the square root of N is SQRT(N); a quantity N with the exponent n (i.e., N to the nth power) is given by N exp(n); an so forth. This was done so individuals can communicate about this paper in any common email format].

The observed near free-fall times of the WTC towers (and WTC7) were a dramatic signature of a controlled demolition. (The articles at http://members.fortunecity.com/911 are a valuable resource for presenting and then challenging the "official" explanation for WTC collapses). Measured times are all around 10 seconds, which is close to calculated free-fall time, indicating the tower floors fell without much impediment. They essentially fell into air [Ref. (6)]. The theory put forth by T. Eagar of MIT and other "establishment" engineers is that while no steel members actually melted or failed, the floor assemblies, bolted at their joists to the outer walls and inner core structures, did fail [Ref. (7)]. The floor joists attachment bolts were weakened and gave way, twisting sideways and allowing the initial floor to "unzipper" itself all the way round and collapse to the floor below. The remaining floors then pancaked all the way down. Never mind that floor joist cross-members, placed to resist twisting, and additional support structures were not included in the MIT/FEMA/NOVA calculations and presentations (nor was the inner core collapse mechanism explained at all).

Consider the following: if the pancaking effect caused the total building failure, why is it that no video of either of the WTC collapses shows any sign of stutter between floor collapses, which should have been very apparent especially in the first few floors of collapse when the speed of gravitational collapse was small? Consider also that apologists for the official conspiracy theory propose that 30% of the gravitational collapse energy was necessary to create the pyroclastic cloud of debris: that is, in their own analysis, this energy came out of the gravitational energy. This means that the time of fall would have been slowed further than what was observed. When a body of mass m falls from a height h, acted upon by gravitational acceleration g, it converts its potential energy PE = m x g x h into kinetic energy KE = (1/2) x m x (v exp2). Here h = (1/2) x g x (t exp2), t = time of fall, and v =g x t, where v = velocity. Removal of 30% of the PE to pulverize concrete essentially reduces the amount of energy available from falling, effectively reducing the gravitational acceleration to something less than g.

Substituting, in the above equations we have (1.0 - 0.3) x PE = 0.7 x PE = m x g' x h, where PE, m and h are as before and g' = the effective gravitational acceleration. Hence, comparing terms for PE, g' = 0.7 g. The time of collapse under g' will also increase. If we let the effective collapse time be t', then comparing terms for constant h, (1/2) x g x (t exp2) = (1/2) x g' x (t' exp2) =
(1/2) x 0.7g x (t' exp2). Hence, (t exp2) = 0.7 x (t' exp2), or (t/t') = SQRT (0.7) = 0.837. Or, t' = 1.195 t.

Now the observed time t = 10 seconds (a free fall time, the fastest possible time under g = 9.8 m/sec/sec = 32 ft/sec/sec = 32 ft/s exp2). For the cloud debris creation to absorb 30% of the gravitational energy, the observed time of fall would be 10s x 1.195, or almost 12 seconds. This long a collapse time was observed by no one. Clearly, there are serious flaws in the official explanation/conspiracy theory.

The implication from the above is that there were major energy sources other than gravitational involved in the WTC towers collapses. Certainly that is the conclusion of J. Hoffman in his thorough discussion of the north WTC tower dust cloud [Ref. (8)]. By calculating the major sources and sinks observed, particularly the sink of the pyroclastic cloud expansion, Hoffman establishes that a large amount of energy had to be available to drive that expansion, in a (minimum) range of 2,706,000 kWh to 11,724,000 kWh (see his Summary table). Hoffman does not propose an energy source to balance that sink. In Appendix B, an estimate, for discussion purposes only, of the amount of thermite-equivalent to provide this energy source is discussed. It is large, but physically possible.

A discussion of the melted steel found at the base of the WTC complex, not explained by any official, forms the bulk of the remainder of this paper. The following discussion explores the possibility of whether it is possible to get sufficient volume of a relatively slow-reacting chemical compound, like thermite, either on or inside the inner columns to melt a section of them or otherwise weaken them to allow for the inner core to collapse. As Mark Loizeaux of Controlled Demolition, Inc., commenting on the pools of molten steel he observed at the bases of the towers' elevator shafts, said: "If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure" [Ref. (9)]. Controlled Demolition, Inc., incidentally was the company contracted to remove the debris from both the WTC and from the 1995 bombing of the Murrah building in OKC. Also, in the 15 December 03 edition of Sam Smith’s Progressive Review [Ref (15)] there is an excellent discussion of the collapse of the WTC buildings from the perspective of professional firefighters. Included is an excerpt of an article by Jim Malott, a San Francisco architect, in the Nov/Dec 2001 issue of Designer/ Builder magazine. Malott states regarding a WTC tower collapse: “The outside of the building did not fail, it did not get hot enough…It was the core that failed.”

To summarize so far: the discussion in the text above and in Appendix A indicates that the energy of the seismic signal (best viewed as a semi-logarithmic plot) and the gravitational collapse are very close to being the same. This coupled with the fact that there is only one short video clip allegedly showing shaking before collapse of one of the towers leads an objective observer to conclude that there is no actual proof that the seismic "spike" signal is nothing more than building collapse. This is not to say that the seismic signal is 100% guaranteed to be non-explosion related, just that there is no firm evidence so far for the alleged massive explosion. That is, this is not an area on which to stake a lot of credence. The seismic event must be regarded as a "red herring" unless a second, longer video showing the same behavior appears.

The free-fall times and pools of molten steel are entirely different matters. They are a matter of public record, observed by many individuals. So we have evidence of molten steel in the basement; the FEMA report saying molten steel was not to blame, just weakened floor joist bolts; collapse times close to free fall; no real record of a massive explosion (although numerous claims of sounds of smaller explosions and observations of demolition squibs). The immediate conjecture supported by direct observation is the following: controlled demolition, characterized by a (relatively) non-explosive, huge energy release necessary to melt (some) steel. M. Rivero of whatreallyhappened.com and others have proposed the use of thermite, familiar to those of us who had the high school chemistry course with an impressive thermite demonstration. So the question arises: can one get enough thermite close enough to melt sections of the inner core columns, as part of a controlled demolition scenario? The following calculations in this paper indeed do show that it is possible (and I stress possible). Until simple chemical reactants like thermite can be discarded there is really no need to invoke the use of highly speculative and sophisticated devices like thermobaric bombs and scalar EM weapons.

Melting of WTC Inner Core Columns

Evidence of molten steel was found at the very base of the WTC towers, and is a matter of public record. This present study is by no means exhaustive. It is intended as a first attempt to test the possibility that the core columns could have been melted by a known chemical compound. Thermite was chosen as the reactive chemical compound because it is well understood, and is used commercially to weld steel parts (e.g. train rail sections in situ). Other more sophisticated chemical compounds with higher energy densities, by mass and/or volume, could be used in future calculations. Broad assumptions will be made, to get rough estimates of relevant parameters.

Structure of WTC Columns and Their Metal Mass

The best on-line discussion resource found for these calculations was at Ref. (10). According to this source the inner core consisted of from 44 to 47 box columns (the exact number and layout is not known; the architectural firm had not released the construction drawings). The dimensions of the columns reduced in size with increasing height, changing to I-beams above the 85th floor. The above website article assumes (generously) that each core box column has the following (average) X-section: 12"wide x 36"deep x 2” thick.

If w = box column width, d = depth, and t = thickness, then the X-sectional steel area is given by

A = [d x t + (w-2 x t) x t] x 2. For d = 36", t = 2" and w = 12", then

A = [36" x 2" + (12"-2 x 2") x 2] x 2 = 176 in2 = 1.222 ft2.

Floor height was 12ft, so we choose for discussion sake, a 12' high box column in these calculations. Note that multiple floors could have had thermite-type compounds placed there. Also, no more than a foot portion, rather than a full 12 ft of column would be necessary to collapse that floor. Also, complete melt of a column portion is not necessary to cause collapse. So, per floor, per column there is a steel volume V = 12' x 1.222 ft2 = 14.67 ft3. Also, note that the internal X-sectional area of a box column is given by

Aint = [d-(2 x t)] x [w- (2 x t)], and the internal volume by Vint = 12' x [d - (2 x t)] x [w - (2 x t)].

Here, Vint = 12' x [36"-2 x 2"] x [12"- 2 x 2"]/(144 in2/ft2) = 12' x 1.778 ft2 = 21.333 ft3.

The internal volumes will be re-examined later as a possible space to place the thermite.

The website also mentions that the largest box columns used at the core bases had the dimensions of 16" wide x 36" deep x 4" thick. It is not known where exactly the molten steel, that puddled in the WTC basement, originated in the towers. The melt could have occurred some what higher in the columns (where "average" box columns would have been), or at the base where the "largest" box columns were. Molten material would flow down the various WTC shafts to the lowest point possible, 6 stories (some 72') below ground level. Applying the same formulae as above, we have for these "largest" columns, A= [36" x 4" + (16" - 2 x 4") x 4"] x 2 = 352 in2 = 2.444 ft2. Note that this happens to be twice the area as for the "average" box column assumed above. Again, for a 12' column, V = 12' x 2.444 ft2 = 29.328 ft3. Also, here, the internal volume is Vint = 12' x [36' - 2 x 4"] x [16' -2 x 4"]/144" = 18.667 ft3.

In summary, we have for a 12 ft. high core box-column, for a

12" wide x 36"deep x 2" wall thickness (hereafter referred to as an "average" box column), that it has 14.67 ft3 = 0.415 m3 volume of steel, and 21.33 ft3 = 0.604 m3 of internal volume; and

16" wide x 36" deep x 4" wall thickness (hereafter referred to as a "largest" box column), that it has 29.328 ft3 = 0.832 m3 of steel and 18.667 ft3 = 0.529 m3 of internal volume.

Sensible and Latent Heat Energies Needed for Melting a Core Column Section

Knowing the volume of steel involved, we next turn our attention to calculating the energy needed to melt a core column section. We decided to use values for the element iron rather than steel for the following pragmatic reasons:

steel is mostly iron (Fe);

whatever steel is chosen, may be the wrong kind and would be contested: Fe is a given and known quantity, whereas there are many steels;

Fe values found were readily available and reasonably self-consistent;

except for stainless steels, the thermal properties of steel are relatively close to Fe, although the mechanical properties may certainly differ more.

For Fe we will use the following values:

Density = 7874 kg/m3
Melting point = 1811 K = 1538 C
Specific heat = 25.1J/mol K = 449 J/kg K = 0.449 kJ/kg K
Latent heart of fusion = 13,800 J/mol = 2.47 x 10+5 J/kg
Latent heat of evaporation = 347,000 J/mol = 6.21 x 10+3 kJ/kg
mol = gm mole equivalent = 0.0558 kg for Fe

For a 12 ft high core Fe column, we have

for the "average" box column, 0.415 m3 x 7874 kg/m3 = 3267.71 kg Fe; and

for the "largest" box column, 0.832 m3 x 7874 kg/m3 = 6551.17 kg Fe.

Taking 300 K as "ambient" temperature on 9-11, then the temperature difference up to the melting point of Fe is given by

1811 K - 300 K = 1511 K (give or take a few degrees K).

Hence, the energy needed to raise a 12 ft high Fe column to its melting point temperature is given by

for an "average" column, 3267.71 kg x 1511 K x 0.449 kJ/kg K = 2.22 x 10+6 kJ; and

for a "largest" column, 6551.17 kg x 1511 K x 0.449 kJ/kg K = 4.44 x 10+6 kJ.

To actually melt the Fe at 1511 K, we need to provide the latent heat of fusion:

for "average" column, 3267.71 kg x 2.47 x 10+2 kJ/kg = 8.07 x 10+5 kJ; and

for "largest" column, 6551.17 kg x 2.47 x 10+2 kJ/kg = 1.62 x 10+6 kJ.

Thus we see that the sensible heat energies involved are almost a factor of 3 times larger than the latent heats.

Hence, for the total amount of energy needed to melt a 12 ft high Fe column, we need:

for "average" box column, (2.22 + 0.81) x 10+6 kJ = 3.03 x 10+6 kJ; and

for "largest" box column, (4.44 + 1.62) x 10+6 kJ = 6.06 x 10+6kJ

Energies of the Thermite Reaction

An iron oxide/aluminum "thermite" mixture consists of 23.7% Al, 74.7% Fe2O3 by weight, in the reaction

Fe2O3 + 2 Al => Al2O3 + 2 Fe + 849 kJ/mol.

Thus, 849 kJ of energy are released for every g-mole-equivalent (mol) of Fe2O3 that reacts with 2 mol of Al.

For Al, with a density of 2.699 g/cm3, there are 26.98 g/mol.

For Fe2O3, with a density of 5.24 g/cm3, there are 159.70 g/mol.

So then, 159.70 g of Fe2O3 + 53.96 g of Al (213.66 g total) produces 849 kJ of energy, or 3.974 kJ/g = 3.974 x 10+3 kJ/kg (Note that this gives the proper % component mixtures by weight).

For an infinitesimally compacted powder mixture, this would occupy a volume of 159.70g x (cm3/5.24 g) + 53.96 g x (cm3/2.699 g) = (30.48 + 20.0) cm3 = 50.48 cm3.

A separate analysis of a CuO/Al thermite mixture (used to weld copper parts) indicates a powder packing fraction of 0.82 (82%) can be achieved. Let's assume a powder packing fraction of 0.82. Hence, our Fe2O3/Al thermite mixture would occupy not 50.48 cm3, but 61.5 cm3.

Thus the physical density of our densely-packed Fe2O3/Al thermite mixture is

213.66 g/61.5 cm3 = 3.474 g/cm3 = 3.474 x 10+6 g/m3 = 3.474 x 10+3 kg/m3,

and our energy density (per volume) is given by

849 kJ/61.5 cm3 = 13.805 kJ/cm3 = 1.3805 x 10+7 kJ/m3.

Thus to melt a 12 ft high Fe column, we need

for an "average" column, (3.03 x 10+6 kJ)/(3.974 x 10+3 kJ/kg) = 0.7625 x 10+3 kg = 762.5 kg of thermite. This would occupy a volume of 762.5 kg/(3.474 x 10+3 kg/m3) = 0.219 m3. Note that this volume of thermite is less than the internal volume Vint calculated earlier, 0.604 m3. Actually, the internal volume of the "average" box column could be filled with 0.604 m3/0.219 m3 = 2.76 times more than needed to do the job. Alternatively, the column does not require as high a packing density ( i.e. <0.82) and yet be able to load a sufficient charge of thermite mixture to cause melting

for a "largest" column, (6.06 x10+6 kJ)/(3.974 x 10+3 kJ/kg) = 1524.9 kg thermite. This would occupy a volume of 1524.9 kg/(3.974 x 10+3 kg/m3) = 0.439 m3. Note that this volume of thermFite also is less than the earlier calculated Vint = 0.529, but would require a moderately high packing density, approximately > 0.82 x 0.439/0.529 = 0.68.

Other Locations Where Thermite Could Be Placed to Cause Core Box Column Melting

In the preceding section, the amount of thermite needed to cause melting was calculated, and compared to the internal volume available. Just as insulation in building walls is introduced by means of relatively small holes drilled through walls, so could thermite have been placed into the interiors of the core box columns. For the "average" columns this would certainly work, since there is ample volume to overcharge with a low packing density (>0.5). The "largest" columns could be filled in the same way, although some way to "settle" the compound powders might be necessary to achieve a packing density from a pour to be > 0.68.

Rather than fill the interior of a column with chemical compound, what if the thermite compound was applied to the outside of the column, under a layer of "fire-proofing" protective cladding/thermal insulation? How thick would an exterior layer need to be applied?

(a) For an "average" box column, if T is the thickness of the applied outside layer of thermite compound, it would have a X-sectional area given by

Acoat = [T x (d + 2 x T) + T x w] x 2, where d = 36" and w = 12" as before.

This can be rewritten as Acoat = 2 x [2 x Texp2 + T x (d + w)]

For a 12 ft = 3.658 m column, the volume of the coating of thickness T is given by

Vcoat = 2 x 3.658 x [2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T] = 0.219 m3, or

2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T = 0.219 m3/ (2 x 3.658 m) = 0.0299 m2, or

2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T -0.0299 m2 = 0. This is in the form of a quadratic equation, where the solution is given by

T (in meters)= {-b + SQRT(bexp2 - 4 x a x c)}/2 x a, where here

a = 2, b = (d + w) = 12" + 36" = 48" = 1.219 m, and c = -0.0299 m2. Substituting,

T = {-1.219 + SQRT[(1.219)exp2 - 4 x 2 x (-0.0299)]}/(2 x 2). Simplifying,

T = {-1.219 + SQRT[1.486 + 0.2395]}/4 = {-1.219 + SQRT[1.725]}/4 =

= {-1.219 + 1.313}/4, or

T = 0.0236 m = 0.93", which is less than 1" of coating for the "average" column.

(This solution can be verified by substitution in the original equation for Vcoat).

(cool.gif For a "largest" box column, here Vcoat = 0.439 m3 and (d + w) = 16"+36" = 1.321m.

So, 2 x Texp2 + 1.321 x T = 0.439m3/(2 x 3.658 m) = 0.0600, or

2 x Texp2 + 1.321 x T - 0.0600 = 0. So, using the quadratic solution again,

T = {-1.321 + SQRT[(1.321)exp2 - 4 x 2 x (-0.600)]}/(2 x 2). Simplifying,

T = {-1.321 + SQRT[1.745 + 0.48]}/4 = {-1.321 + SQRT[2.225]}/4 = {-1.321 + 1.492}/4, or

T = 0.04275 m = 1.683", which is less than 1-3/4" of coating for the largest column.

In short, if a coating slightly less than 2" thick of a thermite coating were applied to the outer surface of any box column, that is sufficient chemical compound to melt that column section. A protective, insulating and cosmetic/disguising layer (e.g. fiberglass/foam) 1" or less would also be helpful.

Conclusions

In this paper we have attempted to establish the amount of thermite that would be necessary to melt a box column at or near the base of the WTC towers' cores, to see if the amount necessary was physically feasible, or would require an unrealistic amount sure to attract detection before its use. We have used thermal parameters for iron, and assumed thermite as the chemical compound. The analysis is thus imperfect, since the structural steel used may have slightly different properties, requiring more (or less) of the chemical compound. A different, more sophisticated compound may have required even less volume than has been calculated here.

Still the implications are clear: such a melting of a section of all the inner core box pillars is possible, using relatively simple technology. Such compounds could have been applied to the interior or the exterior of even the largest of these columns in a surreptitious manner, to accomplish the task of melting and collapse. The amount necessary for complete melting of a segment of even the largest box column was calculated, and found possible. Of course complete melting was not necessary to cause total failure: a lesser amount of a thermite-like compound could have been used to raise the temperature of the steel to a point where the columns would fail before melting, although some melting must have occurred to account for the steel pools.

It is pure speculation if, how, and when this was done. The columns would have been most easily filled during the initial construction phase, but this requires belief in a foresight and 30-40 year "master plan" that may be difficult for many to think possible. (Many buildings are constructed with ultimate demolition in the design, to make way for future construction in urban areas. Usually, the building design includes cavities for controlled demolition explosive placement. The non-availability of WTC tower blueprints makes it difficult to assess this possibility).

However, there have been undoubtedly a number of opportunities under the guise of maintenance: many stories exist about problems with the "insulation" adhering to the steel support structures of the WTC towers. Also, the first attack on the WTC towers in 1993, in the basement of the complex, offered an opportunity for access and "repair" to demolition experts and construction personnel. Thermite is a relatively safe compound, requiring high temperature to initiate reaction - a magnesium fuse is commonly used. We will probably never know exactly what sequence of events unfolded to culminate in the WTC collapses of 11 September 2001.

Acknowledgments

The author wishes to acknowledge discussions with A.K. Dewdney, J. King, J. Longspaugh, B. Mayeux, J. Russell, R. Stanley, S. Walker and other friends and associates of SPINE. Of course, the author takes full responsibility for the content of this work; any errors are his alone.

Appendix A: WTC Seismic Energy Correlation Calculations

F. Moscatelli of Swarthmore College has provided figures on the energy releases involved in the WTC tower collapses in an article by the BBC [Ref (11)]. The article reports the gravitational energy for both towers plus sundry other collapses as 6.8 x 10+11 J, +-25%. Hence, for one WTC tower, the gravitational energy involved can be approximated by ½ x 6.8 x 10+11 J = 3.4 x 10+11 J = 94,400 kWh +- 25%. (Here, using an energy unit conversion site is handy [Ref. (12)]). This figure for single tower collapse seems about right, and agrees with the figure of 100,000 kWh used at various other sites; an estimate of 160,000 tons of steel, concrete, etc., per tower yields a value of 85,000 kWh (J. Russell, personal communication); FEMA's Building Performance Assessment Report indicates about 111,000 kWh per tower (see J. Hoffman's dust cloud analysis at Ref.(13)); see also various websites listed in the Introduction). Hence, a first order calculation suggests that the amount of gravitational energy involved in the collapse of a WTC tower is on the order of 94,400+-23,600 kWh.

This is also the amount of energy that can be roughly back-calculated from a Palisades observatory WTC collapse seismic event of 2.2 (average) magnitude, and compared to a Palisades recorded quarry explosion seismic event "calibration" of 1.5 (average) magnitude. The quarry explosions were caused by the detonation of 80,000 lbs = 40 tons of ammonium nitrate/fuel oil (ANFO), equivalent to approximately 0.30 x 40 = 12 tons of TNT = 13,946 kWh, where 1 ton ANFO = 30% of 1 ton of TNT energy equivalent, and 1 ton TNT = 4.186 x 10+9 J = 1,163 kWh. If we take the ratio of the magnitudes of the seismic energies for the WTC collapse and for a quarry explosion, we have the ratio of (10+2.2)/(10+1.5) = 158.5/31.6 = 5.02. Hence, the seismic energy of the WTC event compared to a quarry explosion can be given roughly by 5.02 x 13,946 kWh = 70,009 kWh. This is just at the lower limit of the calculated gravitational collapse energy calculated above, 70,800 kWh. Also, consider that some portion of the towers' concrete mass that was pulverized into suspended fine dust would not appear in a seismic spike signal. Some estimated 90,000 tons of the estimated 160,000 tons of material per tower was concrete (i.e. 56% of tower mass was concrete, while 44% was steel, etc.). Assume, for discussion's sake, that half the concrete per tower was converted into fine dust that did not contribute to the immediate seismic signal (i.e. 28% of tower mass). Subtracting this 28% of tower mass would decrease the "average" figure of 100,000 kWh of total gravitational energy per tower to 68,000 kWh. Again this is close to the crudely calibrated value of 70,009 kWh. Although these calculations involve arguable assumptions, the author only wishes to demonstrate that claims the observed seismic spike indicated a massive pre-collapse explosion are not supported by the mathematical analysis. The conclusion the author arrived at is that the seismic spikes observed were certainly of the same magnitude as, and not separate from, the WTC towers' gravitational energies.

It has been the main thrust of this paper that explosions leaving a seismic spike would not have been necessary to bring down a structure like a WTC tower. A slower reaction would still cause core failure. Whether a chemical reaction takes place over a period of say, 1 second, or 1 millisecond, the energy released is the same. Since power = energy/unit-time, then a reaction taking 1 millsecond would have 1000 times the power as a reaction taking 1 second, but still release the same amount of energy. This is the difference between a blast and a melt. The melt would not (necessarily) leave a seismic signature.

Appendix B: Calculation of the Amount of Thermite-Equivalent Needed to Provide the Energy Source for the Energy Sinks Calculated by J. Hoffman in His Analysis of the WTC North Tower Pyroclastic Cloud

As an exercise, calculations are presented here of the amount of thermite needed to fill the energy sinks calculated by J. Hoffman in his analysis of the WTC north tower pyroclastic cloud [Ref.(13)]. It should be stated at the outset that thermite is not definitely proposed as the mechanism for this cloud expansion. Just as for the collapse of the inner core, the calculations are done to see if it is possible to contain enough thermite-equivalent within the WTC tower structures to create the effect of the pyroclastic cloud.

Ignoring water vaporization, Hoffman calculates a total energy sink to be filled by a source of 11,724,000 kWh; see his Summary table at Ref (13). This allows for thermodynamic gas expansion only (no water vapor expansion). For water vapor expansion only (no water supply limit for vaporization), the energy source required is 2,706,000 kWh. This is regarded by Hoffman as a lower-limit range for the sink, 2,706,000 to 11,724,000 kWh.

In this present paper, we calculated that the energy density per volume for densely packed thermite is given by 1.3805 x 10+7 kJ/m3. Since, 1 kWh = 3600 kJ, then the thermite energy density is given by 3,835 kWh/m3. Hence, to reach the lower limit of Hoffman's range, a volume of 705.6 m3 of densely-packed thermite would be needed, and to reach the upper limit of the range, 3057.1 m3 would be required.

Let us do a rough estimate of the volume inside of the core columns of a WTC tower, as a first place chosen to put the above calculated m3 of thermite. Let us assume the following for a WTC tower: the 6 floors of the basement and the first 6 floors above ground are "largest" box columns; the remaining 79 floors from the 7th to the 85th are "average" box columns; above the 85th floor the supports are I-beam , not box columns, without internal volume. Let us further assume 47 core columns per floor. (These assumptions, while reasonable, are somewhat arbitrary, in this "boundary-value" calculation).

Earlier we calculated for a "largest" box columns, 0.529 m3 of internal volume, while for an "average" column we arrived at 0.604 m3 of internal volume. Hence, per floor of "largest" core columns we have an internal core volume of 47 x 0.529 m3 = 24.86 m3; and per floor of "average" columns, an internal core volume of 47 x 0.604 m3 = 28.39 m3. Twelve floors of "largest" core columns provides 12 x 24.86 m3 = 298.3 m3 of volume, while 79 floors of "average" columns provides 79 x 28.39 m3 = 2242.8 m3 of volume. Thus we have a grand total of 2541.1 m3 of core column inner volume available for controlled demolition charges. Note that this available volume of 2541.1 m3 is within the range of volumes needed above for densely-packed thermite, 705.6 m3 to 3057.1 m3.

It is not likely that all the core volumes could be filled in this way with high-density thermite. Recall that a less-than 2" thick thermite coating applied to a column exterior as "insulation" was sufficient to melt it. The surfaces of columns and floors are more likely places to apply chemical compounds disguised as "insulation" (Recall reports about the WTC's "shoddy" construction, rumored influenced by organized crime; recall also reports about problems getting the "insulation" to adhere).

Let us do one more calculation for illustration. For simplicity, this time consider the case of a WTC tower with 91 floors of all "average" box columns, including the basement and first 6 floors above ground. Let each floor have 47 such columns, for 47 x 91 = 4277 columns total. These 12' tall column surfaces are to be coated with 3057.1 m3 of a thermite like compound. This works out to 0.71 m3 per column. How thick would this coating need to be? As before when we considered a core column's surface coating for an "average" column, let the volume of the coating be Vcoat ( = 0.71 m3, instead of 0.219 m3 as before). Then,

Vcoat = 2 x 3.658 x [2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T] = 0.71 m3 , or

2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T = 0.71 m3/(2 x 3.658 m) = 0.097 m2. Simplifying,

2 x Texp2 + (d + w) x T - 0.097 = 0.

This is again in the form of a quadratic equation, where a =2; b = (d + w) = 12" + 36" = 48" = 1.219 m; and c = -0.097 m2. Then, as before,

T = {-1.219 + SQRT[(1.219)exp2 - 4 x 2 x (-0.097)]}/(2 x 2), or

T = {-1.219 + SQRT[1.486 + 0.776]}/4 = {-1.219 + SQRT[2.262]}/4 or

T = {-1.219 + 1.504}/4 = 0.071 m = 2.81".

In short, if a coating slightly less than 3" thick of a thermite like coating were applied to the outer surfaces of the box columns, that volume would contain sufficient energy to account for the pyroclastic cloud, under the conditions of the largest energy sink calculated by Hoffman.

This paper will not consider the much greater surface areas and coating volumes provided (and thinner coatings allowed) by the WTC floors themselves -- what better places to heat and pulverize concrete? That is left for the reader to ponder.

References

(1) http://www.maebrussell.com/Articles%20and%...Explosives.html and http://emperors-clothes.com/news/albu.htm

(2) http://emperors-clothes.com/news/albu.htm

(3) http://www.geocities.com/streakingobject/0...mes7WTCwhy.html

(4) http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/LCSN/Eq/20010...TC_LDEO_KIM.pdf and
http://victoria.indymedia.org/news/2003/04/13974.php

(5) See for example http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/shake2.html as one site of the video clip.

(6) http://members.fortunecity.com/911/wtc/proof.htm

(7) http://members.fortunecity.com/911/wtc/nova.htm

(8) http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/art....php?storyid=12

(9) http://www.americanfreepress.net/09_03_02/...w_seismic_.html

(10) http://www.misternet.org/nerdcities/WTC/wtc-demolition.htm

(11) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1550326.stm

(12) http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/energy/

(13) http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/art....php?storyid=12

(14) See for example, www.wtc7.net/pullit.html , www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm370951.html , or http://vestigialconscience.com/Pullit.html ; and many other places on the web.

(15) http://prorev.com/indexa.htm#top

© Derrick P. Grimmer, Ph.D., 20th June, 2004




metamars
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 07:14 PM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 5 2006, 05:39 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 5 2006, 05:11 PM)
QUOTE
The pillars of the central cores were made of steel even 100 + 100 mm thick, thicker than the side armours of a battle tank.
<br>Some military expert!

Modern battle tanks employ re-active armour and steel encased depleted uranium passive armour. This is nothing like simple steel armour.

However the King Tiger tank of WW2 of course only had steel armour and it was 150mm thick.



The above statement by the supposed expert is extremely misleading at best
100 + 100 > 150

Since there's was no depleted uranium in steel frame towers, that would be a poor comparison, don't you think?
<a href='http://www.military.cz/panzer/index_en.htm' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>ReferenceGood lord man. The tank has two sides as well. so OK 150mm + 150mm

As far as the DU goes, YES that was my very point. IF a modern tank only has 100mm of armour (actual thickness is classified) but is of DU then the 'expert' who used this number is out to lunch.


the Panzerkampfwagen VI Königstiger is listed as having 180mm armor
The Russia Heavy tank IS-3 had 200mm armor
<!--QuoteBegin-->
QUOTE (->
QUOTE
The pillars of the central cores were made of steel even 100 + 100 mm thick, thicker than the side armours of a battle tank.
<br>Some military expert!

Modern battle tanks employ re-active armour and steel encased depleted uranium passive armour. This is nothing like simple steel armour.

However the King Tiger tank of WW2 of course only had steel armour and it was 150mm thick.



The above statement by the supposed expert is extremely misleading at best
100 + 100 > 150

Since there's was no depleted uranium in steel frame towers, that would be a poor comparison, don't you think?
<a href='http://www.military.cz/panzer/index_en.htm' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>ReferenceGood lord man. The tank has two sides as well. so OK 150mm + 150mm

As far as the DU goes, YES that was my very point. IF a modern tank only has 100mm of armour (actual thickness is classified) but is of DU then the 'expert' who used this number is out to lunch.


the Panzerkampfwagen VI Königstiger is listed as having 180mm armor
The Russia Heavy tank IS-3 had 200mm armor
<!--QuoteBegin)
The tank has two sides as well

<br>Yes, but if you pierce even one side, you have killed the tank. If you only cut on side of each column, your CD will become an Uncontrolled Demolition.


QUOTE
As far as the DU goes, YES that was my very point. IF a modern tank only has 100mm of armour (actual thickness is classified) but is of DU then the 'expert' who used this number is out to lunch.
<br>
If you want to compare apples and applies, you certainly don't want to compare DU and steel. Since the expert didn't say "state of the art US battle tank", I don't see what your problem is. Are you suggesting that all tanks in use today utilize depleted uranium?

And even if that was the case, imputing such a restraint to our Finnish military friend makes no more sense then comparing apples and oranges.

I believe it's not so much that our military expert is out to lunch, but rather you are ordering Chinese food from a Mexican Restaurant. Or putting ketchup on your ice cream. Or using a fork with your soup.

Oh my, these dining analogies are getting silly, aren't they?
metamars
QUOTE
please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least.
<br>Just to be clear: I'm doubtful that floor trusses snapping off from columns would make much of a kink. However, the FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe that these truss connections are so strong that they contribute in a major way to the ever-obscure "column failues".

To be fair, I have not been able to quantify the forces involved, and therefore can't be too upset if they have not, either. However, they should at least explain qualitatively why we observe no kinks.

As they have rather fertile imaginations, this should be no problem. I prefer plausible explanations, of course, but preferring and getting are two different things...
metamars
[quote]I especially howled at the 'Amazing Bellows in the Basement' Theory... hilarious stuff !![/qutoe]

Oh, sure. Didn't you ever have a lawn party, and invite some fat people? Don't you remember how, no matter how gingerly they walked, you'd hear sucking and pumping noices as they ambled about? And remember the occasional earthworm or mole that came shooting out of it's burrow, as though shot out of a pop-gun? And how confused said earthworms and moles looked?

HOW COULD YOU POSSIBLY FORGET ALL THIS, FOXX ???

biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Well, at least nobody here has 'Bats in the Belfry'.

Right?
RealityCheck
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE
please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least.
<br>Just to be clear: I'm doubtful that floor trusses snapping off from columns would make much of a kink. However, the FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe that these truss connections are so strong that they contribute in a major way to the ever-obscure "column failues".

To be fair, I have not been able to quantify the forces involved, and therefore can't be too upset if they have not, either. However, they should at least explain qualitatively why we observe no kinks.

As they have rather fertile imaginations, this should be no problem. I prefer plausible explanations, of course, but preferring and getting are two different things...
<br>Hi metamars.

Do you recall my posts to gordon explaining the PRINCIPLE of LESSER forces REDIRECTING GREATER forces? The same principle applies here. The vertical forces had only to be 're-directed' by the floor connections just BIASING the vertical colums either way OUT OF TRUE...so that the 'buckling/breaking' INITIATION could take place SOONER rather than LATER in whatever direction the BIAS was. That BIAS need only be MARGINAL in strength for it to have a great determining of the DIRECTION of buckling etc. This of course is IN ADDITION to all the other chaotic happennings/forces at play (including ANNEALING IN SITU and the softening this results in; etc etc). Hope this helps. Gotta run. Ciao.

RC.
.
Guest
Thermite in action:

http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/....video.s12.html

Metamars, for the first time in nearly 200 pages, a left AND a right punch. I've never seen anyone land a combination before. Let's see how long they stay down for the count. It won't be long enough, but it's a start.
metamars
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE
please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least.
<br>Just to be clear: I'm doubtful that floor trusses snapping off from columns would make much of a kink. However, the FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe that these truss connections are so strong that they contribute in a major way to the ever-obscure "column failues".

To be fair, I have not been able to quantify the forces involved, and therefore can't be too upset if they have not, either. However, they should at least explain qualitatively why we observe no kinks.

As they have rather fertile imaginations, this should be no problem. I prefer plausible explanations, of course, but preferring and getting are two different things...
<br>Hi metamars.

Do you recall my posts to gordon explaining the PRINCIPLE of LESSER forces REDIRECTING GREATER forces? The same principle applies here. The vertical forces had only to be 're-directed' by the floor connections just BIASING the vertical colums either way OUT OF TRUE...so that the 'buckling/breaking' INITIATION could take place SOONER rather than LATER in whatever direction the BIAS was. That BIAS need only be MARGINAL in strength for it to have a great determining of the DIRECTION of buckling etc. This of course is IN ADDITION to all the other chaotic happennings/forces at play (including ANNEALING IN SITU and the softening this results in; etc etc). Hope this helps. Gotta run. Ciao.

RC.
. You seem to be thinking of rubble falling down vertically on columns. But I was referring to rubble falling vertically on the floor trusses, which are horizontal. Either the rubble hit those trusses or it didn't. If you believe it didn't, then why and how did they disappear?
RealityCheck
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:33 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE
please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least.
<br>Just to be clear: I'm doubtful that floor trusses snapping off from columns would make much of a kink. However, the FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe that these truss connections are so strong that they contribute in a major way to the ever-obscure "column failues".

To be fair, I have not been able to quantify the forces involved, and therefore can't be too upset if they have not, either. However, they should at least explain qualitatively why we observe no kinks.

As they have rather fertile imaginations, this should be no problem. I prefer plausible explanations, of course, but preferring and getting are two different things...
<br>Hi metamars.

Do you recall my posts to gordon explaining the PRINCIPLE of LESSER forces REDIRECTING GREATER forces? The same principle applies here. The vertical forces had only to be 're-directed' by the floor connections just BIASING the vertical colums either way OUT OF TRUE...so that the 'buckling/breaking' INITIATION could take place SOONER rather than LATER in whatever direction the BIAS was. That BIAS need only be MARGINAL in strength for it to have a great determining of the DIRECTION of buckling etc. This of course is IN ADDITION to all the other chaotic happennings/forces at play (including ANNEALING IN SITU and the softening this results in; etc etc). Hope this helps. Gotta run. Ciao.

RC.
.
You seem to be thinking of rubble falling down vertically on columns. But I was referring to rubble falling vertically on the floor trusses, which are horizontal. Either the rubble hit those trusses or it didn't. If you believe it didn't, then why and how did they disappear?
<br>Hi metamars!

I commented based on YOUR comments highlighted above. And merely pointed out how the increased 'debris weight' on the floor trusses would be sufficient to pull on and so BIAS the COLUMN tendencies under ANY vertical load be it static or dynamic. Ciao

RC
metamars
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:43 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:33 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE
please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least.
<br>Just to be clear: I'm doubtful that floor trusses snapping off from columns would make much of a kink. However, the FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe that these truss connections are so strong that they contribute in a major way to the ever-obscure "column failues".

To be fair, I have not been able to quantify the forces involved, and therefore can't be too upset if they have not, either. However, they should at least explain qualitatively why we observe no kinks.

As they have rather fertile imaginations, this should be no problem. I prefer plausible explanations, of course, but preferring and getting are two different things...
<br>Hi metamars.

Do you recall my posts to gordon explaining the PRINCIPLE of LESSER forces REDIRECTING GREATER forces? The same principle applies here. The vertical forces had only to be 're-directed' by the floor connections just BIASING the vertical colums either way OUT OF TRUE...so that the 'buckling/breaking' INITIATION could take place SOONER rather than LATER in whatever direction the BIAS was. That BIAS need only be MARGINAL in strength for it to have a great determining of the DIRECTION of buckling etc. This of course is IN ADDITION to all the other chaotic happennings/forces at play (including ANNEALING IN SITU and the softening this results in; etc etc). Hope this helps. Gotta run. Ciao.

RC.
.
You seem to be thinking of rubble falling down vertically on columns. But I was referring to rubble falling vertically on the floor trusses, which are horizontal. Either the rubble hit those trusses or it didn't. If you believe it didn't, then why and how did they disappear?
<br>Hi metamars!

I commented based on YOUR comments highlighted above. And merely pointed out how the increased 'debris weight' on the floor trusses would be sufficient to pull on and so BIAS the COLUMN tendencies under ANY vertical load be it static or dynamic. Ciao

RC I now understand your issue even less.....

What exactly do you think happened to the trusses? How did we end up with a "naked column"?
Foxx
Well... with all due respect 'Reality Check' for all your postulations, we can not forget that you have/had Very Little Understanding of the actual construction of the towers... going way back to the beginning of this thread when brian & metamars corrected you on your misinformation regarding the central core.

Do you want an actual link to that misinformation, ( which you have never apologized for ... or admitted to)?

With all due respect 'Reality Check'...

get YOURS checked.

Sorry, bud - you are NOT fooling me with your Schneibster Support.

How about addressing my 'thermite postulation' with an un-biased attitude?


billybats
QUOTE (Guest+Jan 6 2006, 03:25 AM)
Thermite in action:

http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/....video.s12.html

Metamars, for the first time in nearly 200 pages, a left AND a right punch. I've never seen anyone land a combination before. Let's see how long they stay down for the count. It won't be long enough, but it's a start.
I agree, very well explained.

Why is it that everything the Shneibster crowd says strikes me as farfetched? It's like I'm living in the bizarro world. blink.gif
Foxx
QUOTE (billybats+Jan 6 2006, 04:23 AM)
QUOTE (Guest+Jan 6 2006, 03:25 AM)
Thermite in action:

http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/....video.s12.html

Metamars, for the first time in nearly 200 pages, a left AND a right punch. I've never seen anyone land a combination before. Let's see how long they stay down for the count. It won't be long enough, but it's a start.

I agree, very well explained.

Why is it that everything the Shneibster crowd says strikes me as farfetched? It's like I'm living in the bizarro world. blink.gif

FACTS are Facts...

Sophistry IS Sophistry...

Watch out for the 'difference'... It IS Coming

I will DARE ANYONE to REFUTE the Science...

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=51282

This can NOT be refuted apart from sophistry.


RealityCheck
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:55 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:43 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:33 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE
please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least.
<br>Just to be clear: I'm doubtful that floor trusses snapping off from columns would make much of a kink. However, the FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe that these truss connections are so strong that they contribute in a major way to the ever-obscure "column failues".

To be fair, I have not been able to quantify the forces involved, and therefore can't be too upset if they have not, either. However, they should at least explain qualitatively why we observe no kinks.

As they have rather fertile imaginations, this should be no problem. I prefer plausible explanations, of course, but preferring and getting are two different things...
<br>Hi metamars.

Do you recall my posts to gordon explaining the PRINCIPLE of LESSER forces REDIRECTING GREATER forces? The same principle applies here. The vertical forces had only to be 're-directed' by the floor connections just BIASING the vertical colums either way OUT OF TRUE...so that the 'buckling/breaking' INITIATION could take place SOONER rather than LATER in whatever direction the BIAS was. That BIAS need only be MARGINAL in strength for it to have a great determining of the DIRECTION of buckling etc. This of course is IN ADDITION to all the other chaotic happennings/forces at play (including ANNEALING IN SITU and the softening this results in; etc etc). Hope this helps. Gotta run. Ciao.

RC.
.
You seem to be thinking of rubble falling down vertically on columns. But I was referring to rubble falling vertically on the floor trusses, which are horizontal. Either the rubble hit those trusses or it didn't. If you believe it didn't, then why and how did they disappear?
<br>Hi metamars!

I commented based on YOUR comments highlighted above. And merely pointed out how the increased 'debris weight' on the floor trusses would be sufficient to pull on and so BIAS the COLUMN tendencies under ANY vertical load be it static or dynamic. Ciao

RC
I now understand your issue even less.....

What exactly do you think happened to the trusses? How did we end up with a "naked column"?
<br>Come, metamars, I don't have time to play games with either obtuse or purposely disingenuous people. You can't have it both ways. Some of you complain that the connections COULDN'T 'pull' on the columns because they were too weak and would snap before affecting the columns stability/bias; and THEN YOU say the columns SHOULDN'T have been 'shorn' naked of their floor connections? Please, mate; save your games for the other 'side', as I'm NOT on ANYBODY"s 'side' but the obvious observations as I see them from my own experience/knowledge of the POSSIBLE processes in any given scenario described (which scenario in this case was described by YOUR comments as highlighted by me above). I don't give a damn about agendas or games or 'sides' in ANY debate. I call it as I see it and be damned to all else. So please save your 'cuteness' for those who will appreciate it and have the time to 'play', heh? Ciao.

RC.
.
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 6 2006, 04:17 AM)
Well... with all due respect 'Reality Check' for all your postulations, we can not forget that you have/had Very Little Understanding of the actual construction of the towers... going way back to the beginning of this thread when brian & metamars corrected you on your misinformation regarding the central core.

Do you want an actual link to that misinformation, ( which you have never apologized for ... or admitted to)?

With all due respect 'Reality Check'...

get YOURS checked.

Sorry, bud - you are NOT fooling me with your Schneibster Support.

How about addressing my 'thermite postulation' with an un-biased attitude?

<br>Hi Foxx.

In return, with all due respect, is it possible that you yourself nor anyone else here has the THERMOPHYSICAL/THERMOCHEMICAL KNOWLEDGE to rebut what I have put from MY OWN PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE/EXPERIENCE of the processes I have described as possible and likely to be involved in the various scenarios in question? If so, then please do not profess to have disproved anything until anyone explains POINT BY POINT AND IN DETAIL exactly HOW and WHY these processes could not have been present. Thanks.

RC.
.
Foxx
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 04:55 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:55 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:43 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:33 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE
please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least.
<br>Just to be clear: I'm doubtful that floor trusses snapping off from columns would make much of a kink. However, the FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe that these truss connections are so strong that they contribute in a major way to the ever-obscure "column failues".

To be fair, I have not been able to quantify the forces involved, and therefore can't be too upset if they have not, either. However, they should at least explain qualitatively why we observe no kinks.

As they have rather fertile imaginations, this should be no problem. I prefer plausible explanations, of course, but preferring and getting are two different things...
<br>Hi metamars.

Do you recall my posts to gordon explaining the PRINCIPLE of LESSER forces REDIRECTING GREATER forces? The same principle applies here. The vertical forces had only to be 're-directed' by the floor connections just BIASING the vertical colums either way OUT OF TRUE...so that the 'buckling/breaking' INITIATION could take place SOONER rather than LATER in whatever direction the BIAS was. That BIAS need only be MARGINAL in strength for it to have a great determining of the DIRECTION of buckling etc. This of course is IN ADDITION to all the other chaotic happennings/forces at play (including ANNEALING IN SITU and the softening this results in; etc etc). Hope this helps. Gotta run. Ciao.

RC.
.
You seem to be thinking of rubble falling down vertically on columns. But I was referring to rubble falling vertically on the floor trusses, which are horizontal. Either the rubble hit those trusses or it didn't. If you believe it didn't, then why and how did they disappear?
<br>Hi metamars!

I commented based on YOUR comments highlighted above. And merely pointed out how the increased 'debris weight' on the floor trusses would be sufficient to pull on and so BIAS the COLUMN tendencies under ANY vertical load be it static or dynamic. Ciao

RC
I now understand your issue even less.....

What exactly do you think happened to the trusses? How did we end up with a "naked column"?
<br>Come, metamars, I don't have time to play games with either obtuse or purposely disingenuous people. You can't have it both ways. Some of you complain that the connections COULDN'T 'pull' on the columns because they were too weak and would snap before affecting the columns stability/bias; and THEN YOU say the columns SHOULDN"T have been 'shorn' of their floor connections? Please, mate; save your games for the other 'side', as I'm NOT on ANYBODY"s 'side' but the obvious observations as I see them from my own experience/knowledge of the POSSIBLE processes in any given scenario described (which scenario in this case was described by YOUR comments as highlighted by me above). I don't give a damn about agendas or games or 'sides' in ANY debate. I call it as I see it and be damned to all else. So please save your 'cuteness' for those who will appreciate it and have the time to 'play', heh? Ciao.

RC.
.
Gee... 'Reality Check' (who seems to 'breeze by' at opportune moments)...

Always supporting your 'buddy' Schneibster / CoMMOn senSE

Albeit...Disinterested as you 'claim to be'.

I'm 'sorry'... (as I understand that you are dying from 'lung problems'), but my sympathies towards lung problems do NOT extend to idiot brain hemorrages.

Perhaps rather than seeking sympathy, you should seek the TRUTH.

Please explain your empirical knowledge related to structural design and HOW it is relative to this...

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=51282

biggrin.gif

Cheers.
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+)
How about addressing my 'thermite postulation' with an un-biased attitude?


<br>Thermite won't work inside the column because the "Hot Spot" will move.

Thermite won't work outside the column because you can't keep the molten part next to the column.

When you cut something with thermite you put the thermite on top of a horizontal piece

Arthur
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 6 2006, 05:11 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 04:55 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:55 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:43 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:33 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE
please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least.
<br>Just to be clear: I'm doubtful that floor trusses snapping off from columns would make much of a kink. However, the FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe that these truss connections are so strong that they contribute in a major way to the ever-obscure "column failues".

To be fair, I have not been able to quantify the forces involved, and therefore can't be too upset if they have not, either. However, they should at least explain qualitatively why we observe no kinks.

As they have rather fertile imaginations, this should be no problem. I prefer plausible explanations, of course, but preferring and getting are two different things...
<br>Hi metamars.

Do you recall my posts to gordon explaining the PRINCIPLE of LESSER forces REDIRECTING GREATER forces? The same principle applies here. The vertical forces had only to be 're-directed' by the floor connections just BIASING the vertical colums either way OUT OF TRUE...so that the 'buckling/breaking' INITIATION could take place SOONER rather than LATER in whatever direction the BIAS was. That BIAS need only be MARGINAL in strength for it to have a great determining of the DIRECTION of buckling etc. This of course is IN ADDITION to all the other chaotic happennings/forces at play (including ANNEALING IN SITU and the softening this results in; etc etc). Hope this helps. Gotta run. Ciao.

RC.
.
You seem to be thinking of rubble falling down vertically on columns. But I was referring to rubble falling vertically on the floor trusses, which are horizontal. Either the rubble hit those trusses or it didn't. If you believe it didn't, then why and how did they disappear?
<br>Hi metamars!

I commented based on YOUR comments highlighted above. And merely pointed out how the increased 'debris weight' on the floor trusses would be sufficient to pull on and so BIAS the COLUMN tendencies under ANY vertical load be it static or dynamic. Ciao

RC
I now understand your issue even less.....

What exactly do you think happened to the trusses? How did we end up with a "naked column"?
<br>Come, metamars, I don't have time to play games with either obtuse or purposely disingenuous people. You can't have it both ways. Some of you complain that the connections COULDN'T 'pull' on the columns because they were too weak and would snap before affecting the columns stability/bias; and THEN YOU say the columns SHOULDN"T have been 'shorn' of their floor connections? Please, mate; save your games for the other 'side', as I'm NOT on ANYBODY"s 'side' but the obvious observations as I see them from my own experience/knowledge of the POSSIBLE processes in any given scenario described (which scenario in this case was described by YOUR comments as highlighted by me above). I don't give a damn about agendas or games or 'sides' in ANY debate. I call it as I see it and be damned to all else. So please save your 'cuteness' for those who will appreciate it and have the time to 'play', heh? Ciao.

RC.
.
Gee... 'Reality Check' (who seems to 'breeze by' at opportune moments)...

Always supporting your 'buddy' Schneibster / CoMMOn senSE

Albeit...Disinterested as you 'claim to be'.

Please explain your empirical knowledge related to structural design biggrin.gif

Cheers.
<br>Hi Foxx.

I 'surf through' EVERY DAY through all the forums and pick out those 'scenarios' which pique my interest. There are only so many hours in the day, and so it is also VERY likely that time-zone and other coincidences will see me post EITHER after YOU, OR metamars OR WHOEVER...it is STATISTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for it NOT to be so. I am not responsible therefore for your or anyone else's paranoia or conjectures. I post when I post...and the rest be damned. I don't care enough about ANYONE's opinion on that score to bother to change my post-timing, or choice of items to comment on, just so as to avoid being incorrectly 'lumped in' with other posters...as can be deduced from my postings here and elsewhere in these fora. As to MY qualifications/experience etc. my posts EVERYWHERE IN THESE FORA should speak for themselves. And it behoves YOU and any other challengers of my posts to REBUT with equally VALID PHYSICS argument/knowledge...all else on your part is, as far as I'm concerned, merely delay, evasion and immaterial blather, and NOT debate and substantive rebutal according to the accepted rules of such in these fora. I therefore look forward to the physics in rebutal. Thanks. Ciao.

RC.

Foxx
QUOTE
Originally posted by 'Reality Check'
And it behoves YOU and any other challengers of my posts to REBUT with equally VALID PHYSICS argument/knowledge...all else on your part is, as far as I'm concerned, merely delay, evasion and immaterial blather
<br>Ehhh, that was already done WAAAAYYYY back when... 'Reality' (when you claimed the towers had a 'hollow core'.

So much for your 'knowledge' on the topic under discussion.

Keep watching and you may actually LEARN something.

Ciao, Mate... biggrin.gif
reasonwhy
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 6 2006, 05:28 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
How about addressing my 'thermite postulation' with an un-biased attitude?


<br>Thermite won't work inside the column because the "Hot Spot" will move.

Thermite won't work outside the column because you can't keep the molten part next to the column.

When you cut something with thermite you put the thermite on top of a horizontal piece

Arthur

How does a thermite grenade work?
Foxx
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 6 2006, 05:28 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
How about addressing my 'thermite postulation' with an un-biased attitude?


<br>Thermite won't work inside the column because the "Hot Spot" will move.

Thermite won't work outside the column because you can't keep the molten part next to the column.

When you cut something with thermite you put the thermite on top of a horizontal piece

Arthur
With all due respect 'Arthur' you have LOST ALL CREDIBILITY in this debate...

See here...

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtop...indpost&p=51297

Either ATTEMPT to address the issue... or turn in your badge. biggrin.gif
RealityCheck
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 6 2006, 05:38 AM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by 'Reality Check'
And it behoves YOU and any other challengers of my posts to REBUT with equally VALID PHYSICS argument/knowledge...all else on your part is, as far as I'm concerned, merely delay, evasion and immaterial blather
<br>Ehhh, that was already done WAAAAYYYY back when... 'Reality' (when you claimed the towers had a 'hollow core'.

So much for your 'knowledge' on the topic under discussion.

Keep watching and you may actually LEARN something.

Ciao, Mate... biggrin.gif
<br>Hi Foxx.

Are you maintaining that the 'core' WASN'T "hollow"? And that, in the event, it WASN'T woefully inadequate for the conditions that prevailed in 9/11 impact and aftermath? Please go back and see what a REAL honest-to-goodness CORE SHOULD BE.

And I still have to see any PHYSICS argument/knowledge in rebutal of my last observations. Ciao.

RC.
.
Foxx
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 05:47 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 6 2006, 05:38 AM)
QUOTE
Originally posted by 'Reality Check'
And it behoves YOU and any other challengers of my posts to REBUT with equally VALID PHYSICS argument/knowledge...all else on your part is, as far as I'm concerned, merely delay, evasion and immaterial blather
<br>Ehhh, that was already done WAAAAYYYY back when... 'Reality' (when you claimed the towers had a 'hollow core'.

So much for your 'knowledge' on the topic under discussion.

Keep watching and you may actually LEARN something.

Ciao, Mate... biggrin.gif
<br>Hi Foxx.

Are you maintaining that the 'core' WASN'T "hollow"? And that, in the event, it WASN'T woefully inadequate for the conditions that prevailed in 9/11 impact and aftermath? Please go back and see what a REAL honest-to-goodness CORE SHOULD BE.

And I still have to see any PHYSICS argument/knowledge in rebutal of my last observations. Ciao.

RC.
.
Ehhhh,,, Oh; I thought you just 'passed by coincidentally' (not REALLY paying attention) ... Pfffttt !

Read again the nonsense you have posted.

It seems you have absolutely NO understanding of the architechtural engineering regarding the central core. Why do you pretend to have such knowledge?

I Could Really 'write a book' on your 'engineering nonsense,' but as I am not being paid to do so, I'm not going to waste any more of my time on your flowery BS, 'Reality Check'.

Say 'hi' to Crocodile Dundee for us... biggrin.gif


metamars
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 04:55 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:55 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:43 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:33 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE
please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least.
<br>Just to be clear: I'm doubtful that floor trusses snapping off from columns would make much of a kink. However, the FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe that these truss connections are so strong that they contribute in a major way to the ever-obscure "column failues".

To be fair, I have not been able to quantify the forces involved, and therefore can't be too upset if they have not, either. However, they should at least explain qualitatively why we observe no kinks.

As they have rather fertile imaginations, this should be no problem. I prefer plausible explanations, of course, but preferring and getting are two different things...
<br>Hi metamars.

Do you recall my posts to gordon explaining the PRINCIPLE of LESSER forces REDIRECTING GREATER forces? The same principle applies here. The vertical forces had only to be 're-directed' by the floor connections just BIASING the vertical colums either way OUT OF TRUE...so that the 'buckling/breaking' INITIATION could take place SOONER rather than LATER in whatever direction the BIAS was. That BIAS need only be MARGINAL in strength for it to have a great determining of the DIRECTION of buckling etc. This of course is IN ADDITION to all the other chaotic happennings/forces at play (including ANNEALING IN SITU and the softening this results in; etc etc). Hope this helps. Gotta run. Ciao.

RC.
.
You seem to be thinking of rubble falling down vertically on columns. But I was referring to rubble falling vertically on the floor trusses, which are horizontal. Either the rubble hit those trusses or it didn't. If you believe it didn't, then why and how did they disappear?
<br>Hi metamars!

I commented based on YOUR comments highlighted above. And merely pointed out how the increased 'debris weight' on the floor trusses would be sufficient to pull on and so BIAS the COLUMN tendencies under ANY vertical load be it static or dynamic. Ciao

RC
I now understand your issue even less.....

What exactly do you think happened to the trusses? How did we end up with a "naked column"?
<br>Come, metamars, I don't have time to play games with either obtuse or purposely disingenuous people. You can't have it both ways. Some of you complain that the connections COULDN'T 'pull' on the columns because they were too weak and would snap before affecting the columns stability/bias; and THEN YOU say the columns SHOULDN'T have been 'shorn' naked of their floor connections? Please, mate; save your games for the other 'side', as I'm NOT on ANYBODY"s 'side' but the obvious observations as I see them from my own experience/knowledge of the POSSIBLE processes in any given scenario described (which scenario in this case was described by YOUR comments as highlighted by me above). I don't give a damn about agendas or games or 'sides' in ANY debate. I call it as I see it and be damned to all else. So please save your 'cuteness' for those who will appreciate it and have the time to 'play', heh? Ciao.

RC.
.
I'm trying to make heads or tails of your posts, not trying to be disingenuous.


I believe that floor trusses should either snap off without a noticeable bend, or with a slight bend, in a scenario where the lateral portions of the floors can collapse at all. This statement is absolutely consistent with what I have written earlier in this thread.


The FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe in "column failure". And this column failure, at least in some versions of collapse, are said to happen via columns getting pulled inward by sagging trusses. And yet, we see a column, denuded (at the top, anyway) of floor trusses. Furthermore, we also see that the column is straight.

Your account of "chaos" doesn't explain this at all. Even if a "small force can divert a larger one", either a larger force (diverted or not) hit the trusses and tore them away, or not.

Theory A >>> If they did dig get torn away, I would like you, as a FEMA Fairy Tale believer, to explain to me why these trusses didn't bend the spire column.

Theory B >>> If they didn't get torn away, I would like to you, as a FEMA Fairy Tale believer, to explain to me why I don't see them.


Please tell us whether you subscribe to Theory A or Theory B, and then fill in the missing details.


I can't make it any clearer than this.

From where I'm sitting, it's pretty obvious that you can't elaborate on A or B in any convincing way, but be my guest.

Foxx
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 06:18 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 04:55 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:55 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:43 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:33 AM)
QUOTE (RealityCheck+Jan 6 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 03:03 AM)
QUOTE
please explain to us why the mass of falling floors applied no torque to the vertical columns which would have made them have kinks, at the very least.
<br>Just to be clear: I'm doubtful that floor trusses snapping off from columns would make much of a kink. However, the FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe that these truss connections are so strong that they contribute in a major way to the ever-obscure "column failues".

To be fair, I have not been able to quantify the forces involved, and therefore can't be too upset if they have not, either. However, they should at least explain qualitatively why we observe no kinks.

As they have rather fertile imaginations, this should be no problem. I prefer plausible explanations, of course, but preferring and getting are two different things...
<br>Hi metamars.

Do you recall my posts to gordon explaining the PRINCIPLE of LESSER forces REDIRECTING GREATER forces? The same principle applies here. The vertical forces had only to be 're-directed' by the floor connections just BIASING the vertical colums either way OUT OF TRUE...so that the 'buckling/breaking' INITIATION could take place SOONER rather than LATER in whatever direction the BIAS was. That BIAS need only be MARGINAL in strength for it to have a great determining of the DIRECTION of buckling etc. This of course is IN ADDITION to all the other chaotic happennings/forces at play (including ANNEALING IN SITU and the softening this results in; etc etc). Hope this helps. Gotta run. Ciao.

RC.
.
You seem to be thinking of rubble falling down vertically on columns. But I was referring to rubble falling vertically on the floor trusses, which are horizontal. Either the rubble hit those trusses or it didn't. If you believe it didn't, then why and how did they disappear?
<br>Hi metamars!

I commented based on YOUR comments highlighted above. And merely pointed out how the increased 'debris weight' on the floor trusses would be sufficient to pull on and so BIAS the COLUMN tendencies under ANY vertical load be it static or dynamic. Ciao

RC
I now understand your issue even less.....

What exactly do you think happened to the trusses? How did we end up with a "naked column"?
<br>Come, metamars, I don't have time to play games with either obtuse or purposely disingenuous people. You can't have it both ways. Some of you complain that the connections COULDN'T 'pull' on the columns because they were too weak and would snap before affecting the columns stability/bias; and THEN YOU say the columns SHOULDN'T have been 'shorn' naked of their floor connections? Please, mate; save your games for the other 'side', as I'm NOT on ANYBODY"s 'side' but the obvious observations as I see them from my own experience/knowledge of the POSSIBLE processes in any given scenario described (which scenario in this case was described by YOUR comments as highlighted by me above). I don't give a damn about agendas or games or 'sides' in ANY debate. I call it as I see it and be damned to all else. So please save your 'cuteness' for those who will appreciate it and have the time to 'play', heh? Ciao.

RC.
.
I'm trying to make heads or tails of your posts, not trying to be disingenuous.


I believe that floor trusses should either snap off without a noticeable bend, or with a slight bend, in a scenario where the lateral portions of the floors can collapse at all. This statement is absolutely consistent with what I have written earlier in this thread.


The FEMA Fairy Tale believers believe in "column failure". And this column failure, at least in some versions of collapse, are said to happen via columns getting pulled inward by sagging trusses. And yet, we see a column, denuded (at the top, anyway) of floor trusses. Furthermore, we also see that the column is straight.

Your account of "chaos" doesn't explain this at all. Even if a "small force can divert a larger one", either a larger force (diverted or not) hit the trusses and tore them away, or not.

Theory A >>> If they did dig get torn away, I would like you, as a FEMA Fairy Tale believer, to explain to me why these trusses didn't bend the spire column.

Theory B >>> If they didn't get torn away, I would like to you, as a FEMA Fairy Tale believer, to explain to me why I don't see them.


Please tell us whether you subscribe to Theory A or Theory B, and then fill in the missing details.


I can't make it any clearer than this.

From where I'm sitting, it's pretty obvious that you can't elaborate on A or B in any convincing way, but be my guest. Uhhhh , sorry metamars.

I realize you don't like to 'accept' that there are certain persons on ALL these boards who are 'shills'.

Let me correct that... We ADMIT that we CAN NOT (for a fact) determine who MIGHT be 'paid schills', so why waste time in trying to determine the 'Whos- Who'?

It is obvious to ALL of us that 'Reality Check' is well-aligned with the 'official theory' and supports IT wholeheartedly.

NO well-intentioned rational sentient being can hear and see ALL the evidence presented and STILL SUPPORT such idiocy.

'Reality Check' attempts to support the fairy tale with false meekness, yet has already displayed a misunderstanding of the structural aspects of the towers.

Regardless of his misunderstanding of this critical area of understanding, he attempts to present himself as having 'some understanding' of the engineering and architectural details of the towers, and denies ANY mistakes.

Sorry to say --- he's just a bs'er. (which is quite clear to those who have actual experince in this field)... which brings to mind other BS'ers on this thread (or others)

Fine.. Let's pretend (these people) are regular sentient beings, but the more I read of the thoughts of 'Reality'... the more I see 'Common Sense' biggrin.gif

Neither make sense, yet wish to portray their position as FULLY REASONABLE.








Foxx
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 6 2006, 05:28 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
How about addressing my 'thermite postulation' with an un-biased attitude?


<br>Thermite won't work inside the column because the "Hot Spot" will move.

Thermite won't work outside the column because you can't keep the molten part next to the column.

When you cut something with thermite you put the thermite on top of a horizontal piece

Arthur
Well based upon your 'postulation' I would never hire you.

You do not have creative imagination & abilities.

You are a robot stuck in a box.

Certainly thermite will have an easier path (if placed on a horizontal structural member), but in reality... there are many ways to 'get around' THAT.

If I ask you (as your boss) to come up with a WAY to get around 'that', and you tell me "It CAN'T be done"...

you are outta here, buddy... You are Fired.

Your 'statement' simply shows me that you have absolutely NO experience regarding structural/engineering 'problem-solving'.

It MOST CERTAINLY CAN be done.... And without ANY problem.
metamars
QUOTE
Sorry to say --- he's just a bs'er. (which is quite clear to those who have actual experince in this field)... which brings to mind other BS'ers on this thread (or others)
<br>
Well, I recall he was dead wrong about the basic tube within a tube structure. But there's a lot of disinfo out there, which has been swallowed by both sides of the debate. How many people on our side of the debate are still claiming that the WTC 1&2 fell at free fall speed?

Even if he wasn't humble enough to say "I was wrong", I wouldn't hold this agaiinst him for all eternity.

I'm sure there are honest to God paid shills out there, but again, I don't particularly care whether a particular individual is or isn't. This thread would have been about 2 pages long if there wasn't any opposition. Therefore, it's logical to conclude that the shills (if that's what they are) have done us a favor, even if that wasn't their intention.

However, that happy outcome prevailed on this thread because of the efforts of people such as yourself. Thank-you! smile.gif
galdur
The towers fell at free fall speed which obviously
implies that their structure did not slow the fall at
all. This of course is physically impossible without
the aid of explosives.

Of course the time it takes a brick to fall 400 meters
at sea level is not fixed. It is dependent upon air
resistance and air pressure. On average it takes
about ten seconds to reach the ground, it can be a
little less or a little more. The main point is clearly
that the structure does not slow the fall perceptively.
The floors are supposed to have collapsed on each
other producing a pancaking effect which brought the
building down at free fall speed or very close to it.
This nonsensical fable is not physically possible as
the steel reinforced floors would inevitable have slowed
the fall not to mention the 200 thousand tons of steel
the tower contained. Furthermore the pancake theory
totally ignores the massive core of the building.

Frankly it defies belief that anyone could believe that
a 400 meter high structure, way overengineered and
incredibly strong could be totally flattened in ten seconds
unless explosives were used in a controlled event.
Foxx
QUOTE (metamars+Jan 6 2006, 07:52 AM)
QUOTE
Sorry to say --- he's just a bs'er. (which is quite clear to those who have actual experince in this field)... which brings to mind other BS'ers on this thread (or others)
<br>
Well, I recall he was dead wrong about the basic tube within a tube structure. But there's a lot of disinfo out there, which has been swallowed by both sides of the debate. How many people on our side of the debate are still claiming that the WTC 1&2 fell at free fall speed?

Even if he wasn't humble enough to say "I was wrong", I wouldn't hold this agaiinst him for all eternity.

I'm sure there are honest to God paid shills out there, but again, I don't particularly care whether a particular individual is or isn't. This thread would have been about 2 pages long if there wasn't any opposition. Therefore, it's logical to conclude that the shills (if that's what they are) have done us a favor, even if that wasn't their intention.

However, that happy outcome prevailed on this thread because of the efforts of people such as yourself. Thank-you! smile.gif Right you are metamars... mistakes are made on both sides.

None of us are perfect... and none of us (i dare say) have COMPLETE UNDERSTANDING of what went on that day.

As far as I am concerned Andrew's original concept has NOT been 'rebutted' or refuted in over 100 pages of discussion.

NO building can fall as fast as the twin towers did, apart from the input of additional energy. [although even I have counselled Andrew to 'correct' such claims (in his video) that the towers Fell at FREE-Fall Speeds].

We KNOW that they DID NOT.

They fell...SO CLOSE TO FREE-FALL SPEEDS that it is undeniable that SOME FORM of 'explosive demolition' took out the main stuctural columns.

I will admit that 'The Schneibster' made a valiant attempt to 'support' his theory, but FAILED (even given his self 'patting-on-the-back' puppeteer - efforts)

This official theory is such obvious nonsense.

What is the REAL TRUTH ???

In the end... The Truth will be exposed.

steve1957
QUOTE
RealityCheck

Are you maintaining that the 'core' WASN'T "hollow"?
<br>user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

Does it look Hollow?

I guess if you eliminate all those steel cores and such you might be able to make it look hollow

user posted image
steve1957
Part of the reason there is so much confusion and so many MEANINGLESS DEBATES, is because the OBJECTIVE OF THE INVESTIGATION isn't very CLEAR and it seems to keep changing all the time.

It's my hypotheses that if a more clear object is established on this board that may enable us to move forward into reaching that object a little better.

Here are some objectives that I believe are important for both sides of this issue.

#1 Is the governments story about what really happened on 9/11 true or not?

If the answer is "Yes, the governments story is true", then the objectives may be to defend the governments pancake theory and try to dispel arguments that prove otherwise.

If the answer is "No we have enough evidence to conclude the governments story is untrue", we can then move on to the next objective.

#2 Were some types of explosives used? Whether they be C4, RDX, mini-nukes, and/or other types of man made explosives intended to demolish the building(s)?

If the answer is "No we conclude that no explosives were used" and the buildings did fall according to the pancake theory, or other related theory that partially supports the governments theory.

This is the position that many democrats and others take on this issue. They don't agree with Bush and the 9/11 commission, however they still feel that Bin Laden did it and refuse to accept the possibility that explosives were used, because that implies the government is really evil and that may be too hard to accept.

But if the answer is "Yes, we conclude that some types of explosives were used, either C4, RDX, mini-nukes, and/or some other types of control demolition explosives"

Then we can move forward into the next possible objectives, such as...

#3 Who was involved?

#4 Who is aiding and abetting in the cover up?

#5 in knowing they did this awful crime, what else have they done and more importantly what else may they be planing in the future?

a) Were the elections fixed so as to keep these criminals in office
cool.gif Even if John Kerry, Ralph Nader and/or some other government approved candidate gets elected, does it really make a difference, seeings how they all support the government's theory about who did 9/11, IE Muslim terrorists.

#6 Is the constitution going to save us, seeings how no one in the government, or very few abide by it's rules, from the least of them to the greatest, the white house, the senate, house of reps, supreme court, etc. They all support, aid and abet the criminals who committed one of the worse crimes on American soil.

#7 In knowing that the government in fact did 9/11 as a pretense for war, power and other evil purposes including increasing defense spending, while closing down our military bases, IE; giving money to defense contractors, Haliburton and many other companies. Should we believe them and send our sons and daughters off to war to invade other countries, who are being blamed for doing 9/11, when we know they did not?

#8 Should we seek to know the truth or just go along with the governments story, (even though we know it's an evil lie)?

#9 If we decide that we can't fight city hall, should we forget about standing up for the truth and prostitute ourselves out and fabricate misleading stories about the physics involved in the towers collapsing in order to promote the governmental lie.

#10. Have we become similar to Nazi Germany in many respects, such as
a) Manufacturing lies in order to illegally invade another country, resulting in the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent people.
cool.gif Turn the media and "free press" into a propaganda machine
c) Not only utilize barbaric torture, but also convince the general public that torturing innocent people to death is good for America.
d) Violating the laws of the Geneva convention and other humanitarian laws, and justifying it with the lie that "Those people did 9/11 so it gives us the right to do whatever we want to whomever we want.

#11. If the conclusion is that the general psyche or perceived image of America is similar in many respects to the Nazi Regime then what may be in store for our future?
a) Invading Iran, possibly using nuclear weapons.
cool.gif Invading North Korea, most likely using nuclear weapons
c) Nuking any other country that becomes an obstacle.

#12 Since the Nazi war machine used it's most effective and technologically advanced weapons in order to inflict the most damge, then is it reasonable to assume the US may begin utilizing it's most technologically advanced weapons that inflict the most damage.

When people feel invincible and unstoppable and justified in whatever they do, doesn't it seem like a very short leap into the next very likely scenario of utilizing more and more nukes?

And if that be the case, then what about other countries who also have nukes? Is there a greater possibility that more nukes will be used, not only by us, but by nations that are against us and want to wipe us out?

It's like a boxing match with rules, once the rules have been deleted into an anything goes battle, once you let your opponent know that you'll fight as dirty as you want and obey NO RULES, then don't you think your opponet will likewise respond?

Have these people lost their sanity so much that a nuclear war is just on the horizon. Have people forgotten what a nuclear war will do to the world? Some of us older folks remember a saying "One nuclear bomb can ruin your whole day" But who knows maybe the younger generation is so used to it, they just don't get it, or maybe some of us elderly folks who like war and bloodshed just don't care any more, but I remember a time when most people were aware of the fact that a nuclear war was something we wanted to avoid at all cost, because we know the outcome/

Whatever conclusions each individual reaches doesn't it seem fruitless to debate over issues like whether the towers fell at virtual free fall speed or speeds so close it proves control demolition?
galdur
Hypotheses that disregard or violate natural law are
by definition impossible and should be rejected out
of hand. They are not even debatable except in the
realm af fantasy and fables.
Guest_Temp
Just my thoughts on the use of Thermite. Thermite is a slow burning explosive; it does not have the explosive punch to turn ~500,000 lbs of reinforced concrete to microscopic dust. It may have been used to sever the core columns into nice neat lengths - to fit in CDI's removal trucks - as it has been suggested.

I read on another board that our friend "Scheister" has wriiten a computer program which clearly shows that the towers were demolished by plane impacts. Anyone know aught of this?
steve1957
QUOTE
galdur

Hypotheses that disregard or violate natural law are
by definition impossible and should be rejected out
of hand. They are not even debatable except in the
realm af fantasy and fables.
<br>Agreed. There's not enough hours in the day to be wasting on fairy tales that only lead us away from the truth.
brian
Silverstien has cleared "it" up.

Silverstein Answers WTC Building 7 Charges

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/janua...teinanswers.htm

He would have been as well saying - look, I am a foreigner so please excuse my use of the language.
-

Wonder what this shareholder below, who raised WTC 7 in his proposal, has done, if anything, with the Professor Jones paper.

Shareholder Proposal: Insurer to Investigate 9/11

Monday, May 2, 2005
Link to Original

Allianz Group published a shareholder proposal on April 20th faulting management for ignoring signs of insurance fraud on 9/11/2001. Allianz carried a significant portion of the insurance coverage on the WTC, and stands to pay a corresponding portion of the $3.5 billion payout currently being litigated in New York. In his proposal, shareholder John Leonard, a California native and a publisher of books on 9/11, pointed to reports that building WTC 7 apparently collapsed by demolition, and for no plausible reason related to the 9/11 attacks. Management replied that it relied on official US government reports which made no mention of such evidence. ---

http://www.septembereleventh.org/newsarchi...suranceSuit.php




brian
[For background to Kevin Ryan's personal story see… UQ Wire: Underwriter Speaks Out On WTC Study & UQ Wire: 9/11 Whistleblower Kevin Ryan Fired - UQ Wire Editor.]

A Personal Decisionby Kevin Ryan


Have you ever found yourself caught between several hundred million people and their most cherished lies? After writing a letter to a government scientist, pleading with him to clarify a report of his work, I found myself in just that situation. The letter was circulated on the internet and for a brief time I became a reluctant celebrity. Of course I stand behind what I wrote, although it was originally intended as a personal message, not an open letter. Since many have asked for clarification, here is my message to all.


To me, the report in question represents a decision point, not just for the US, but for humanity as a whole. We're at a point where we must decide if we will live consciously, or literally give up our entire reality for a thin veneer of lies. In the US these lies include cheap propaganda that passes for journalism, police-state measures that promise security, and mountains of debt that paint a picture of wealth. Additionally we've adopted many implicit self-deceptions, like the idea that we'll always enjoy a limitless share of the world's resources, no matter where these are located or who might disagree.

All people lie to themselves. It's one of the most important things we have yet to accept about our own nature. We lie to ourselves to justify our past actions, to protect our self-image, and to promote ourselves relative to others. This lying is at the root of many of our problems (e.g. nationalism and racism). Until we see this, and strive to understand if not control it, the resulting problems will continue unchecked and the outcome will be certain. Any organism or society that makes self-deception its modus operandi will make many bad, and ultimately fatal, decisions. The day will come when we are collectively fooling ourselves in such a way that we essentially trade everything we have for what's behind our fantasy curtain. It appears that day is near.

The official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is a key part of our current self-deception. More importantly, this story may be our last chance to see just how critical our situation is so that we can all stop, and begin working together to solve the real problems we face. These problems, for the US and the world as a whole, amount to a growing storm of factors including environmental changes, resource depletion, and growth in resource usage.[1,2] Undoubtedly the secret Energy Taskforce report of May 2001 would verify this, and help us to understand that our government is responding to some of these threats with a carefully laid out plan. This plan assumes that people cannot rise above their own natural, ego-based self-deception, and therefore few of us will survive the coming storm. In essence, they're betting against us.

Anyone who honestly looks at the evidence has difficulty finding anything in the official story of 9/11 that is believable. It's not just one or two strange twists or holes in the story, the whole thing is bogus from start to end.[3] In my previous job I was in a position to question one part, the collapse of three tall buildings due to fire. But this isn't really a chemistry or engineering problem, and may be best approached initially through statistics.

The three WTC buildings in question weren't all designed the same way and weren't all hit by airplanes. The only thing they seemed to have in common were relatively small and manageable fires, as indicated by the work of firefighters right up to the moment of collapse. From the government's report we know that only a small percentage of the supporting columns in each of the first two buildings were severed, and that the jet fuel burned off in just a few minutes.

To follow the latest 'leading hypothesis', what are the odds that all the fireproofing fell off in just the right places, even far from the point of impact? Without much test data, let's say it's one in a thousand. And what are the odds that the office furnishings converged to supply highly directed and (somehow) forced-oxygen fires at very precise points on the remaining columns? Is it another one in a thousand? What is the chance that those points would then all soften in unison, and give way perfectly, so that the highly dubious 'progressive global collapse' theory could be born? I wouldn't even care to guess. But finally, with well over a hundred fires in tall buildings through history, what are the chances that the first, second and third incidents of fire-induced collapse would all occur on the same day? Let's say it's one in a million. Considering just these few points we're looking at a one in a trillion chance, using generous estimates and not really considering the third building (no plane, no jet fuel, different construction).

How convenient that our miraculous result, combined with several other trains of similarly unlikely events, gives us reason to invade the few most strategically important lands for the production of oil and natural gas. As I said, this is not about chemistry or engineering. Our continued dependence on this highly improbable story means that we have a desperate need to believe it. It is, in fact, a psychology problem.

Solving the problem is a personal challenge, and involves at least three-steps. First, we have to admit we were wrong, and that we were fooled. This is not easy for most people, but congratulations to the neo-cons for noticing that their political opponents seem to be least able to admit they were wrong on any significant issue. Secondly, we have to see that terrorism is actually much worse than we feared because the terrorists are in charge. Such a pause on a national scale would be dramatic to say the least. If we get to the third step we begin to realize the scope of change necessary to move forward in a conscious manner. Obviously the US government must be substantially changed and/or forgiven. New cooperative, multinational agreements would need to be implemented immediately.[4]

If you make it through step one and care enough about people to work for step three, you may face ridicule and isolation. You may lose your income and some friends, but if we continue down the same path there's a real chance you're going to lose those anyway. On the upside you may be able to hold on to some sense of integrity. The only thing you can be certain of is that we're all in this together. No matter how you voted, what credentials or positions you hold, or what faith you have in people, you will face the consequences of our collective self-deceptions. Now is the time for each of us to decide between a stormy reality and what's behind the fantasy curtain.

FOOTNOTES: 1. http://www.energybulletin.net/primer.php 2. http://www.worldwatch.org/press/news/2005/05/12/ 3. http://www.septembereleventh.org/newsarchi...22-571pglie.php 4. http://www.peakoil.net/uhdsg/UppsalaProtocol.html
frater plecticus
Under the Emergency Powers Act (1939) as amended by the Defence Act (1978), you are hereby notified that you are required to place yourself on standby for possible compulsory military service in the American Conflict.



You may shortly be ordered to depart for the Middle East where you will join either the 3rd Battalion The Queen's Own Suicidal Conscripts or the 2nd Foot and Mouth. The regulars are too busy driving Green Goddesses to be there themselves.



Due to the recent rundown of the Navy and the refusal of P&O to lend us any of their liners, because of the deplorable state in which they were returned after the Falklands adventure, it will be necessary for you to make your own way to the combat zone. H.M. Government have been able to negotiate a 20% discount on one way trips with Virgin Airlines and you are strongly urged to take advantage of this offer (RyanAir also do a nice little 9 trip).



Because of cutbacks in Government expenditure in recent years it will be necessary for you to provide yourself with the following equipment as soon as possible:

* Combat Jacket

* Trousers (preferably khaki - but please no denim)

* Tin helmet

* Boots (or a pair of sturdy trainers)

* Gas mask

* Map of the combat zone (the Ordinance Survey 1:2800 Outdoor Leisure Map of Iraq will do)

* Rifle

* Ammunition (preferably to suit previous item)

* Suntan oil



If you are in a position to afford it, we would like you to buy a tank (Vickers Defence of Banbury are currently offering all new conscripts a 0% finance deal on all X registration Chieftains, but hurry, as offer is onlyavailable whilst stocks last). We would like to reassure you that in the unlikely event of anything going wrong, you will receive a free burial in the graveyard of your choice, and your next of kin will be entitled to the new War Widows pension of 5 per calendar month, index-linked but subject to means testing, and fully repayable should our side eventually lose.



There may be little time for formal military training before your departure and so we advise that you hire videos of the following films and try and pick up a few tips as you watch:

* The Guns of Navarone

* Kelly's Heroes

* A Bridge too Far

* The Longest Day

* Apocalypse Now

* The Matrix

* Blazing Saddles

* The Desert Song

* Mary Poppins

(We do not recommend that you watch Zulu, Khartoum, Thin Red Line or Saving Private Ryan) To mentally prepare yourself for your mission try reading the works of Wilfred Owen or Rupert Brookes. This should give you some idea of what may be involved.



Yours faithfully,

G Hoon, Ministry of Defence.



A Bush-Blair Production, Sponsored by Mars, The Official snack of World War III other person.
steve1957
brian,

In the heat of the moment, Larry messed up and accidentally let it SLIP OUT that they demolished building 7, with control demolition, ANY IDIOT CAN DEDUCE THAT.

But now after Larry's been made well aware of the fact that he messed up so badly on that Interview on PBS "America rebuilds" Larry has since tried his best to TRICK PEOPLE into believing that he didn't mean what he said.

Now it's obvious for people with intelligence to know when he said "Pull it" that he meant what the demolition term "Pull it" means "Demolish it" or let the explosions begin, so Larry's backpedaling isn't fooling anybody.

It's only the people who already support the fairy tale, who take Larry's statement as meaning pull the firemen out of the building.

ANY ONE WITH AN OUNCE OF INTELLIGENCE knows without a doubt we've been on the verge of a nuclear war for a long time, we're hanging on by one thread and that threads been unraveling for a long time.

You have INSANE WACKO NEO/CONS using tactical nukes and threatening to use full blown nukes on about billions of Arabs throughout the world, not to mention others and then you have many nations with nukes with their finger on the trigger, because they are being threatened and they see people like Bill O'Reilly say we should just nuke em without any guilt or shame.

But most people are too busy watching Jerry Springer to notice what's going on, and so when you bring up the critical state we are in, and just how VOLATILE the situation is, they just turn the channel, out of site and out of mind.

And other people who think they're so smart actually believe we should vote for another John Kerry to solve all our problems, not realizing the elections are fixed, and the candidates are all corrupt anyway.

So it's not just the wackos who support the fairy tale who live in fantasy land.
steve1957
Despite doctors' attempts to counter media reports, local print and television stations in Israel are reporting Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is clinically dead following a massive stroke yesterday.

Sources tell Israel Insider Sharon "died" at 11 a.m. today local time, but Shlomo Mor-Yosef, director of Hadassah Hospital where the prime minister lies, denied reports of Sharon's death and says he is "serious but stable."

The station also indicated the official death announcement is planned for Sunday, when world stock markets are closed.
adoucette
QUOTE (Foxx+Jan 6 2006, 07:30 AM)
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 6 2006, 05:28 AM)
QUOTE (Foxx+)
How about addressing my 'thermite postulation' with an un-biased attitude?


<br>Thermite won't work inside the column because the "Hot Spot" will move.

Thermite won't work outside the column because you can't keep the molten part next to the column.

When you cut something with thermite you put the thermite on top of a horizontal piece

Arthur

Well based upon your 'postulation' I would never hire you.

You do not have creative imagination & abilities.

You are a robot stuck in a box.

Certainly thermite will have an easier path (if placed on a horizontal structural member), but in reality... there are many ways to 'get around' THAT.

If I ask you (as your boss) to come up with a WAY to get around 'that', and you tell me "It CAN'T be done"...

you are outta here, buddy... You are Fired.

Your 'statement' simply shows me that you have absolutely NO experience regarding structural/engineering 'problem-solving'.

It MOST CERTAINLY CAN be done.... And without ANY problem.
Sorry, should have added to the EXTERNAL THERMITE SOLUTION,: AND NOT MAKE IT OBVIOUS

So if you have a way it could be used on a VERTICAL column of the dimensions specified, and done so as to not be FRIGGIN obvious.

Please describe it.

Oh, and while you are at it please explain how you are going to get these to "burn/cut" with any level of PRECISION.

Arthur

brian
steve, can't argue with that. If the below scenario plays out the September 11 truth movement will become almost an irrelevance.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...ewArticle&code= CH20060103&articleId=1714

Well past high time Americans stood up and took their country back from those whos interests lie elsewhere.
metamars
QUOTE (galdur+Jan 6 2006, 08:04 AM)
The towers fell at free fall speed which obviously
implies that their structure did not slow the fall at
all. This of course is physically impossible without
the aid of explosives.

Of course the time it takes a brick to fall 400 meters
at sea level is not fixed. It is dependent upon air
resistance and air pressure. On average it takes
about ten seconds to reach the ground, it can be a
little less or a little more. The main point is clearly
that the structure does not slow the fall perceptively.
The floors are supposed to have collapsed on each
other producing a pancaking effect which brought the
building down at free fall speed or very close to it.
This nonsensical fable is not physically possible as
the steel reinforced floors would inevitable have slowed
the fall not to mention the 200 thousand tons of steel
the tower contained. Furthermore the pancake theory
totally ignores the massive core of the building.

Frankly it defies belief that anyone could believe that
a 400 meter high structure, way overengineered and
incredibly strong could be totally flattened in ten seconds
unless explosives were used in a controlled event.

WTC 1 & 2 did not fall at free fall speed (in a vacuum). They fell near free fall speed (in a vacuum).

The effects of air resistance are well nigh impossible to calculate with any confidence, without a computer simulation that basically modelled the whole collapse, although I suppose it safe to assume that you could use the same factor as you'd use for, say, a brick, as a lower limit, in simplified (non-computer) calculations.

Of course, when I say "fell", I mean, at the very least, the outer columns and most of the lateral portion of the floors. The inner columns seem to be undergoing a different demolition process, and are so obscured with smoke it's hard to tell what's going on.

The photographic evidence of greater than free fall speed is overwhelming. In some of the photos, you can see that the corners of the buildings are intact for at least 20 floors above the lowest falling debris. You have to add at least the collapse time of those 20 floors onto free fall time....

Of course, I absolutely agree that even the actual collapse times were so extraordinarily fast, that something is very wrong with the official stories. From Gordon's calculation, it's not to hard to figure out what..... If the towers can't collapse globally at all, they can't collapse globally and quickly or globally and slowly!

WTC 7 's actual collapse and free fall time speed are much closer, and thus even more damning. However, my philosophy is not to waste time and energy on that collapse. It's is so obviously due to demolition, that anybody who claims otherwise either has no desire to be realistic, or is incapable of being so.
adoucette
QUOTE (metamars+)
The photographic evidence of greater than free fall speed is overwhelming.

<br>might want to choose different wording.

I think this is why some like galdur and steve1957 just don't seem to get it.

You CLEARLY mean in your post that The photographic evidence of SLOWER than free fall speed is overwhelming.

But I think some people are misinterpreting GREATER to mean FASTER.

Arthur

Guest_James
adoucette, you bankster lackey, we're tired of your bullshit. Get yourself another assignment.
galdur
metamars, this is just semantics and totally
irrelevant. One of the tower actually collapsed
in between 8 and 9 seconds which is faster
than free fall speed.

The point is that the towers collapsed without
any resistance from the structure. There is no
need to obfuscate this. Most people realize that
those towers didn't exist in a vacuum.

If you let a brick fall freely from 400 meters up
in the air it will hit the ground in about ten seconds
after its free fall. It meets no resistance apart
from the resistance of air.

The towers collapsed in ten seconds or so and
this clearly means that they too didn´t meet any
resistance aprt from the air. Of course this is
totally physically impossible except with the aid
of explosives. That is the point.
galdur
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 6 2006, 02:52 PM)
QUOTE (metamars+)
The photographic evidence of greater than free fall speed is overwhelming.

<br>might want to choose different wording.

I think this is why some like galdur and steve1957 just don't seem to get it.

You CLEARLY mean in your post that The photographic evidence of SLOWER than free fall speed is overwhelming.

But I think some people are misinterpreting GREATER to mean FASTER.

Arthur
There is seismic evidence and that is indisputable.

Anyway if it makes you feel better we can say that
the towers collapsed in 12-15 seconds instead of ten.
It doesn´t really matter. In either case the resistance
from the structure is microscopic which of course makes
the pancake theory physically impossible.
adoucette
The only thing indisputable is your status as a MORON.

The Seismic evidence is CLEAR.

The falls took LONGER than Free Fall.

The Seismic evidence show NO INDICATION of High Explosives (since unlike falling buildings, HE give off SUPERSONIC SHOCK WAVES).

User posted image

What a putz

Arthur
galdur
Those floors slabs sat on steel pans !

Hello? biggrin.gif

When steel hits steel there should be some
resistance, in the real world that is. biggrin.gif

As a floor hits the one below it it's not unreason-
able to expect a delay of at least a second while
both the concrete and the steel pan plus trusses
are obliterated. For 110 floors that would make
almost two minutes collpase time.

galdur
QUOTE (adoucette+Jan 6 2006, 03:28 PM)
The only thing indisputable is your status as a MORON.

The Seismic evidence is CLEAR.

The falls took LONGER than Free Fall.

The Seismic evidence show NO INDICATION of High Explosives (since unlike falling buildings, HE give off SUPERSONIC SHOCK WAVES).

User posted image

What a putz

Arthur
The point is that the towers fell without any resistance
from the structure but of course you will never get this.
adoucette
QUOTE (galdur+Jan 6 2006, 03:31 PM)
Those floors slabs sat on steel pans !

Hello? biggrin.gif

When steel hits steel there should be some
resistance, in the real world that is. biggrin.gif

As a floor hits the one below it it's not unreason-
able to expect a delay of at least a second while
both the concrete and the steel pan plus trusses
are obliterated. For 110 floors that would make
almost two minutes collpase time.
WHAT A MORON.

Come on CTers.

Save some dignity for your side of the argument, or are you going to continue to let this MORON speak for your "side".

I know I wouldn't want him speaking for "my side", but hey, its up to you.

Arthur
yesitdid
QUOTE (galdur+Jan 6 2006, 03:31 PM)
Those floors slabs sat on steel pans !

Hello? biggrin.gif

When steel hits steel there should be some
resistance, in the real world that is. biggrin.gif

As a floor hits the one below it it's not unreason-
able to expect a delay of at least a second while
both the concrete and the steel pan plus trusses
are obliterated. For 110 floors that would make
almost two minutes collpase time.
Why one second?

Where do you derive that number?
brian
Perhaps metamars or others more able than myself can comment on the validity of this taken from an article Foxx posted earlier - it appears self explantory

--"Consider also that apologists for the official conspiracy theory propose that 30% of the gravitational collapse energy was necessary to create the pyroclastic cloud of debris: that is, in their own analysis, this energy came out of the gravitational energy. This means that the time of fall would have been slowed further than what was observed. When a body of mass m falls from a height h, acted upon by gravitational acceleration g, it converts its potential energy PE = m x g x h into kinetic energy KE = (1/2) x m x (v exp2). Here h = (1/2) x g x (t exp2), t = time of fall, and v =g x t, where v = velocity. Removal of 30% of the PE to pulverize concrete essentially reduces the amount of energy available from falling, effectively reducing the gravitational acceleration to something less than g.

Substituting, in the above equations we have (1.0 - 0.3) x PE = 0.7 x PE = m x g' x h, where PE, m and h are as before and g' = the effective gravitational acceleration. Hence, comparing terms for PE, g' = 0.7 g. The time of collapse under g' will also increase. If we let the effective collapse time be t', then comparing terms for constant h, (1/2) x g x (t exp2) = (1/2) x g' x (t' exp2) =
(1/2) x 0.7g x (t' exp2). Hence, (t exp2) = 0.7 x (t' exp2), or (t/t') = SQRT (0.7) = 0.837. Or, t' = 1.195 t.

Now the observed time t = 10 seconds (a free fall time, the fastest possible time under g = 9.8 m/sec/sec = 32 ft/sec/sec = 32 ft/s exp2). For the cloud debris creation to absorb 30% of the gravitational energy, the observed time of fall would be 10s x 1.195, or almost 12 seconds. This long a collapse time was observed by no one. Clearly, there are serious flaws in the official explanation/conspiracy theory.

The implication from the above is that there were major energy sources other than gravitational involved in the WTC towers collapses.."

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&st=2940
galdur
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 6 2006, 03:41 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Jan 6 2006, 03:31 PM)
Those floors slabs sat on steel pans !

Hello?  biggrin.gif

When steel hits steel there should be some
resistance, in the real world that is.  biggrin.gif

As a floor hits the one below it it's not unreason-
able to expect a delay of at least a second while
both the concrete and the steel pan plus trusses
are obliterated. For 110 floors that would make
almost two minutes collpase time.

Why one second?

Where do you derive that number?

<b>There has to some resistance when steel meets steel.

There simply is no way around this.

If we compute half a second per floor we get a collapse
time of around a minute.

With a quarter second it's around half a minute.

You can´t just ignore natural law. biggrin.gif

The steel pans were shredded and the concrete was
pulverized. No pancake effect can account for this.
adoucette
QUOTE (brian+Jan 6 2006, 03:51 PM)
Perhaps metamars or others more able than myself can comment on the validity of this taken from an article Foxx posted earlier - it appears self explantory

--"Consider also that apologists for the official conspiracy theory propose that 30% of the gravitational collapse energy was necessary to create the pyroclastic cloud of debris: that is, in their own analysis, this energy came out of the gravitational energy. This means that the time of fall would have been slowed further than what was observed. When a body of mass m falls from a height h, acted upon by gravitational acceleration g, it converts its potential energy PE = m x g x h into kinetic energy KE = (1/2) x m x (v exp2). Here h = (1/2) x g x (t exp2), t = time of fall, and v =g x t, where v = velocity. Removal of 30% of the PE to pulverize concrete essentially reduces the amount of energy available from falling, effectively reducing the gravitational acceleration to something less than g.

Substituting, in the above equations we have (1.0 - 0.3) x PE = 0.7 x PE = m x g' x h, where PE, m and h are as before and g' = the effective gravitational acceleration. Hence, comparing terms for PE, g' = 0.7 g. The time of collapse under g' will also increase. If we let the effective collapse time be t', then comparing terms for constant h, (1/2) x g x (t exp2) = (1/2) x g' x (t' exp2) =
(1/2) x 0.7g x (t' exp2). Hence, (t exp2) = 0.7 x (t' exp2), or (t/t') = SQRT (0.7) = 0.837. Or, t' = 1.195 t.

Now the observed time t = 10 seconds (a free fall time, the fastest possible time under g = 9.8 m/sec/sec = 32 ft/sec/sec = 32 ft/s exp2). For the cloud debris creation to absorb 30% of the gravitational energy, the observed time of fall would be 10s x 1.195, or almost 12 seconds. This long a collapse time was observed by no one. Clearly, there are serious flaws in the official explanation/conspiracy theory.

The implication from the above is that there were major energy sources other than gravitational involved in the WTC towers collapses.."

http://forum.physorg.com/index.php?showtopic=3108&st=2940
First FALSE ASSUMPTION: The dust cloud was NOT pyroclastic, as evidenced by the fact that it's average temp was obviously LESS than the ignition point of paper, which is WAY LESS than any PYROCLASTIC cloud.

Second ASSUMPTION with no basis in FACT: 30% of the gravitational energy was needed to create this cloud.

Once you start with poor assumptions you come to all sorts of strange conclusions.

Arthur
frater plecticus
Election 2004: Republican Terror Manipulations, How They Work and Why
Christian Pecaut
26 min 52 sec - Dec 22, 2005
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6...ld+trade+center

This interview with Neil Robert Miller (www.imaginenine.com) was recorded while he was in University of California, San Francisco hospital.

At the time, he was receiving intensive chemotherapy and radiation treatments for his terminal lung cancer.

Sadly, he passed away January 14th, 2005.

The insights within this video, concerning the elections, 9/11, and the Republican party will help extricate ourselves from the current right-wing political cloud we all suffer under.
Director: Christian Pecaut
Camera / Intro: Danilo
Research: Neil Miller


User posted image
adoucette
QUOTE (galdur+Jan 6 2006, 03:52 PM)
QUOTE (yesitdid+Jan 6 2006, 03:41 PM)
QUOTE (galdur+Jan 6 2006, 03:31 PM)
Those floors slabs sat on steel pans !

Hello?  biggrin.gif

When steel hits steel there should be some
resistance, in the real world that is.  biggrin.gif

As a floor hits the one below it it's not unreason-
able to expect a delay of at least a second while
both the concrete and the steel pan plus trusses
are obliterated. For 110 floors that would make
almost two minutes collpase time.

Why one second?

Where do you derive that number?

<b>There has to some resistance when steel meets steel.

There simply is no way around this.

If we compute half a second per floor we get a collapse
time of around a minute.

With a quarter second it's around half a minute.

You can´t just ignore natural law. biggrin.gif

The steel pans were shredded and the concrete was
pulverized. No pancake effect can account for this.
Tell me OH GENIUS, WHAT EXACTLY had to fail on a floor for it to fall?

Did the concrete have to be pulverized for it to fall?

Did the steel pan have to be shredded for it to fall?

Did the Trusses have to be obliterated for it to fall?

If you think the answer to ANY of the above is YES, please revisit how the towers were constructed.

Arthur

frater plecticus
Perspective on 9-11 Video Collection
Snowshoe documentary Films
1 hr 58 min 9 sec - Nov 22, 2005
www.snowshoefilms.com

The perspective on 9-11 video collection consists of excerpts from about a dozen videos. It is broken into the following sections:

PART I: Historical Context

Time Title
----- ------------------------------------
1:59 Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor
3:34 Out of the Blue (On Government Secrecy)
1:09 Col. Fletcher from "JFK"
6:01 "JFK" ("X"/Prouty in DC)
4:12 "The Men Who Killed Kennedy"
6:15 Barrie Zwicker on the MLK Trial
5:03 War Deceptions by Barrie Zwicker

PART II: 9-11 Videos

Time Title
----- ------------------------------------
21:26 "The Great Deception" by Barrie Zwicker
16:25 "Painful Deceptions" by Eric Hufschmid
14:30 "Aftermath" by GNN

PART III: Updates since May 2004

PART IV: Excerpts from "International Inquiry into 9/11 - Phase One" Conference held March 26th-28th, 2003 in San Francisco, CA

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7...773278216&q=jfk
galdur
Those pans weren´t stacked down there all 110 of them
after the collapse. They were shredded. The concrete was
pulverized. These are the facts of the matter whether you
like it or not. What's with the constant personal attacks?
Why are you so defensive?

Why are you unable to discuss this in a civilized manner?
frater plecticus
because he's a treasonous turd
galdur
I guess peddling impossible and nonsensical fables
does tend to make one defensive. rolleyes.gif
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